originally posted by Axver
OK, either you've misread what I've said, or I've misread what you've said.
I misread what you said, and I apologize. I'm not familiar with The Silver Lining and have only heard the Studio version of 11 O'Clock a few times. You're a U2 history scholar, haha.
I was talking about the name change from Silver Lining to 11 O'Clock, and missed the fact that you were also discussing two versions of 11OTT.
originally posted by Axver
Well, I agree with why you think they played material before releasing it - they pretty much had to. But my point is that as a by-product of that, by the time they got into the studio to record Boy, they knew these songs very, very well. All you need to do is listen to the February 1979 version of Twilight (on Another Day's single) or the June 1979 versions of OOC and SFB (on U2:3) to see how these songs evolved from then through to mid-1980.
I suppose maybe I'm enough of a fan I should look those up, but I have to admit, the very early rare stuff I've heard usually serves to just show me how far they've come. Often I'd rather spend that time listening to other bands and other types of music.
originally posted by Axver
U2, for better or worse, no longer choose to air anything that isn't already laid down in the studio, and I think one consequence of that is a number of songs are not fully completed until later.
Haha, we've been around this one several times now. I see where you're coming from, but I still don't see it as an issue of finshed//unfinished. I see it as different versions of the songs, more akin to a remix or something. They are a great live band and they tour extensively- they enjoy reworking songs and versions of them for various tours, and I'm sure it also keeps it more interesting for them. To make an extreme example, does the acoustic PopMart version of SBS mean the War version is unfinished? I doubt many people would say so. I think you're likely to say that it doesn't because it came about 14 years after the album... admittedly a long time, but if it had come within six months of the album, it might indicate it was unfinished (but then only if those changes stood the test of time).
I don't mean to sound aloof, but that disctinction doesn't interest me so much. I love the fact that they change songs for live performance and for me it shows another dimension of their creativity. If they were to have given themselves that extra six months so that the six AB songs you mentioned were recorded more similarly to the live versions played on ZooTV, I'd pretty much see that as a bad thing. Something that hampers their creativity. Something that makes their live shows less interesting, and more like listening to the album at home.
It seems to me you and Philly maybe really wish to discuss the studio vs live versions of AB songs. I never really realized that was such a fertile topic. If you want to start a new thread on it, that's cool with me. I'm having a difficult time giving it the attention it deserves without seeing it as a distraction, because to me the October era and the AB era are very different, and the types of "unfinished" we're talking about are also very different.
originally posted by Axver
This has some truth, but I'd like to make two points:
1. One of the October "top 3" was victim of this too. Tomorrow was played thrice in 1982 and about thirty times over the period of about 2 months in 1983, and has never been heard from again.
2. When the final October songs (barring Gloria and October) were cut, U2 at the time were making a subtle break with the past in their live sets. Songs like I Fall Down and ITABTAW ended their live career around the same time as the likes of Surrender, Twilight, THBAO, An Cat Dubh, Wire, et al. Now, yes, a couple of those have been briefly resurrected at later stages, but you certainly notice a big difference between the 1984-5 setlists and those of 1987. So I'm not sure you can really say the October songs discarded at that point were discarded due to being unfinished filler, as a lot of other stuff went around that time, material most of us would not consider filler.
I would agree that the obvious filler and unfinished tracks had an understandably brief live career. SIASL's unfinished nature didn't lend itself to live performances. The Cry stayed as The Cry and was never done as ITA. Scarlet, we could argue for hours about whether it was filler or just didn't suit being played live (though was done once). I'd say Rejoice was neither filler nor unfinished but just too demanding on Larry.
Good points, but it still remains October is by far the least drawn-from album on tour- only Gloria has been played live in the last 16 years, and until the Vertigo tour, Gloria had only been played once (as a snippet) since 1990.
originally posted by Axver
Because this forum can't stop falling over itself to praise that shoddy album?
Woo, shoddy, eh?
Sorry if I was unclear- I'm talking about U2 themselves regarding the AB album AS A WHOLE, not the opinions of any fans on any forums.
originally posted by Axver
All good, relevant quotes - they certainly illustrate the point. I do wonder how much revisionist history there is, knowing U2's changing attitudes towards Pop, though I think even around the time of October there were comments along the lines you posted.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think October is not exceptionally incomplete, and has a good number of individual songs - the majority - that, to me, seem pretty finished and were not redeveloped live. They sound rushed, especially lyrically.
Yes, to me it's always seem much more rushed than anything they've released, including Pop.
originally posted by Axver
The album itself, as an overall piece of work, is incomplete -
originally posted by Axver
the Scarlet/ITA passage proves that as a work of art, it was never pieced together properly. But as for many of the songs themselves? I see no reason to believe Gloria, ITABTAW, Rejoice, Fire, Tomorrow, October, WAS, or Scarlet are any more unfinished than WOWY, One, Discotheque, Bullet, etc. Whether they're more complete - now that's contentious, depending on your comparisons and personal favourites.
Fair enough, though i probably could get into a detailed analysis of why I think I Fall Down, I threw a brick, Rejoice, With a Shout, Scarlet and Fire sound less finished than the subsequent songs you mention, I'm not sure I reeeally want to get into that. I think we've all made our points pretty well, and part of our seeing if differently comes from our different criteria for evaluating these terms.
Originally posted by Axver
Now shall we continue this on round 2's thread?
Carry on sir.
