Rebuild It, Bigger

[Achtung Bubba]

Jonah Goldberg, editor of the National Review Online, nailed the issue within this article:

http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg091301.shtml

The highlights:

"We can't bring back the dead, but we can rebuild the broken. In fact ? to borrow a phrase from the Six Million Dollar Man ? we can rebuild it better, faster, and stronger."


"...other than delivering righteous retribution, the best way America can show that it's wiped away its tears and put steel in its spine is to rebuild the World Trade Center. A serious, dare I say manly, nation doesn't wallow. It dusts itself off, and gets up off the mat.

"When the World Trade Center was first constructed it was the tallest building in the world. When it was destroyed, it was the fifth. America isn't fifth at anything worth being first at. It's time we had the tallest building in the world again."


"America's enemies believe that we are a weak and soft nation, lacking the mettle to rise to this occasion. On the battlefront it looks like they were wrong. (John McCain: "I say to our enemies: We are coming. God may have mercy on you, but we won't.") And while the bravery of the rescue teams is indisputable, we need to do more on the home front to show our enemies were wrong in every regard.

"America will find an appropriate way to mourn. But if we must have a shrine or monument for our remorse, let's put it on the 200th floor, right next to the antiaircraft guns."

My emphasis was added at the end, but I doubt Mr. Goldberg would much mind.

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- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

 

[diamondbruno9]

Nice article Brother Bubs... Manna for the masses...Db9

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"..it's about breaking barriers, transcending boundries and conquering great divides"-Bono 1987

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An open letter to Bono from myself www.arizonaautoweb.com/bono/

 

[Foxxern]

What is this, some kind of competition for the US to be the best at everything in the world? No wonder so many people around the world resent us. I try to be reasonable, and portray a caring, compassionate image of Americans. But then I see quotes like "It's time we had the tallest building in the world again." and "But if we must have a shrine or monument for our remorse, let's put it on the 200th floor, right next to the antiaircraft guns." Huh? I can't even imagine the kind of world this is when we want the US to be like that.

How is it time for us to have the tallest building in the world? Is there some rationale behind creating such a structure, or is it simply an act of revenge intended to once again remind our enemies that we think we're better than they are and we always will be. As if they needed to once again be reminded of the fact that they have nothing compared to our decadent lifestyles.

Honestly, try going to a third-world country and seeing how people like that really live. Then tell me you won't be angry at how people of the first-world live.

But then again, sympathizing with anyone non-American makes me a fucking terrorist, right?

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Change is the only constant

 

[Diemen]

America isn't fifth at anything worth being first at. It's time we had the tallest building in the world again.

This is EXACTLY the arrogant, elitist attitude that gets America it's bad name in so many other countries.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Amazing how often the U.S. is criticized for having too much, for being so "decadent", so "arrogant", so "elitist".

It's also amazing how often the U.S. helps those in need, even those that call us "decadent", "arrogant", and "elitist".

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- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

 

[Diemen]

I'm not refuting the overwhelming good that America does - and I agree with the article Gordon Sinclair wrote in 1973 - it still applies today. However, I hope you can agree with me that the line I picked out is arrogant and elitist in attitude. It's that kind of motivation for rebuilding it bigger that I find disturbing.

 

[zoomerang II]

If I worked there I don't think I'd want it rebuilt - I think I would rather it be erased from my memory. Maybe rebuild the whole area and leave a small space in the middle for people to go and pay their respects. I hope new york can grow and continue to move ahead into the future.

 

[dream wanderer]

Why can't we rebuild it..but make it different...I don't know...something very unique...like the Sidney Opera House or something...something not so dangerous...something...beautiful.

I'm not one of those America must be bigger better Americans...I just want us to be good....

dream wanderer

 

[Dreamboat Annie]

I don't give a shit how 'arrogant and elitist' they think we are. We have to show them we are not beaten. Consider too that it will take years to rebuild them, and by then hopefully all those responsible will not be around to be pissed off by it anyway!

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"Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage."

 

[The Wanderer]

good to see more US-bashing even in a thread about re-building something that was just inihilated

people are very oportunist on this board and in a cruel twist of irony are using this as a chance to hammer away at the United States' values and ideals even further -- values and ideals that many of them live by, regardless of their geographic location

 

[zoomerang II]

Don't know what this means to the overall scheme of rebuilding (form theage.com.au):

On the other hand, insurers of the buildings themselves will pay out for the loss of only one tower because experts believed that the collapse of both towers simultaneously was too far-fetched to be worth insuring.

The Port Authority of New York, owner of the towers, is likely to receive an insurance payout of $US1.5 billion, far below the $US5billion-plus value put on the towers before their collapse and only a little above their $US1.2 billion construction cost in the early 1970s.

A spokesman for the US Insurance Information Institute said: "The possibility of the loss of both structures was seen as so remote that cover was not taken out on those lines. The $US1.5 billion of coverage was purchased on the basis of a probable rather than a possible maximum loss."

 

[Red Ships of Scalla-Festa]

this is sick. go on with your business, but by deliberatly trying to make a point out of how america would show those asses that america doesnt give up by making a bigger better building is not proper thinking. it is not rational, and it will only spark future terror. none of us wants that.

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-deathbear

 

[diamondbruno9]

It's been settled. Mayor Guliani has already stated that The World Trade Center will be rebuilt. Not sure about scope and size. This is 'going about business' while reclaiming dignity for universally peaceful citizens thru out the world.DB9

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"..it's about breaking barriers, transcending boundries and conquering great divides"-Bono 1987

---------
An open letter to Bono from myself www.arizonaautoweb.com/bono/

 

[Diemen]

Let me just reiterate that I am in complete agreement with those that say it needs to be rebuilt. But I really don't think we should be rebuilding it with the specific intention of making it bigger. If the functionality of the design calls for it to be bigger, than that's fine.

Primitive posturing over something as insignificant as having the tallest building in the world is unfortunate and I really think it's the last thing we should be concerned about in the building process.

What I'm disappointed with is that someone takes my comments as US-bashing. Simply pointing out some flaws is not bashing. Pointing out that the US has done wrong is not bashing. Putting blinders on and failing to recognize that the US has done wrong and has flaws is more damaging than anything else, I believe (something about those that do not learn from their past...).

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Damn straight we're gonna rebuild the World Trade Center... only this time instead of two towers there's gonna be 3, and the one in the middle is going to be slightly taller than the other two, so it appears to be a middle finger saying FUCK YOU to the terrorist scums... you can not take down America.

 

[Badyouken]

If the World Trade Center was to be rebuilt, would you work in it? Even if they put anti-aircraft guns on top, would you still work in it? It's creepy...

And how much do you think it would cost to insure it after all that happenned?

 

[DoctorGonzo]

Americans are usually found on either side of the line. There are those of us who think the US is too involved, and those who think the US isn't involved enough.

Actually, there is another group. One that I'm a part of. The one that feels we are too involved in the wrong things.

For example, when the U.S proudly announces a $1 billion aid program for a particular nation it is usually not what it appears.

Let's take the $1 billion of U.S taxpayer money that comprised an aid package to Panama after the United States overthrew the dictator it had financed and supported for so long:

$400 million in incentives for U.S corporations to export products to Panama.

$150 million to pay off bank loans

$65 million to private sector loans and for garuntees to U.S investors

Half of this $1 Billion in aid ended up as an aid package for U.S corporations!

In other instances, the aid we give is in loans that can never be repyaed. The interest is so high, countries spend more paying off the U.S than they will ever spend on social programs like education and health care. They never even get around to paying the balance.

 

[Salome]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Rebuild It, Bigger

what would Freud make out of this one

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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

 

[sharky]

maybe rebuild it but not bigger. and I don't even know about rebuilding it. there is talk that some bodies will never be able to be recovered from the site. make it a park.

i understand some of you think that we need to rebuild this to prove we're Americans but there are things you're not understanding. i worked across the street from the Trade Center. I saw the buildings on fire. I was one of the people in the crowd running as they collapsed. The people that died may have been Americans, this may have been an attack on America but in the end, it wasn't a patriotic duty to work there. Everyone who worked in the area worked there because that's where our jobs were. We were there that morning to work, not to defend America. So what if you build the buildings taller? What is that going to do? It would just be a taller building. Building a tall building may be a way to memorialize those who died because they were Americans but something more respectable than that would memorialize those people because they were humans-- and that, in the end, is more important.

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"Things will not be the same in this city for us." -Bono, Dublin, February 1980

 

[bullet the blue sky]

not all the people that died were american.

what some are forgetting is that cos they hit the world trade center, they in fact killed people of lots of nationalities... there could be up to 500 british people dead in there, south africans, germans, french, canadians, mexicans too.

building it bigger would be stupid. to be honest, i think this will see the end of the super skyscraper... big buildings and all that. it makes them too easy a target. you have to think rationally about this.

 

[diamondbruno9]

Originally posted by bullet the blue sky:
not all the people that died were american.

what some are forgetting is that cos they hit the world trade center, they in fact killed people of lots of nationalities... there could be up to 500 british people dead in there, south africans, germans, french, canadians, mexicans too.

building it bigger would be stupid. to be honest, i think this will see the end of the super skyscraper... big buildings and all that. it makes them too easy a target. you have to think rationally about this.

Bullet! I agreed w/your 1st two paragraphs,then you lost me...

Build it the same exact way,yet more perfect for those INNOCENT WORLD WIDE CITIZENS!Ressurect that beautiful structure in their MEMORY, not as SHOW-BOATING. And you Bullet- capitulate no longer to face-less cowardly thugs. Have I made myself clear?Why would want to even signify their existence -(the perpeurtators?). Pay those Bastards and SONS OF BITCHES no regard. Thank You ,Godspeed-Db9

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"..it's about breaking barriers, transcending boundries and conquering great divides"-Bono 1987

---------
An open letter to Bono from myself www.arizonaautoweb.com/bono/

[This message has been edited by diamondbruno9 (edited 09-14-2001).]

 

[bullet the blue sky]

i was trying to say that if attempts to combat terrorism include lessening the risk of buildings being hit, then there won't be any massive buildings like the wtc being built again that are very easy targets.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

You know, bullet, this United States did not become the great nation it is today by being timid, by refusing to take risks -- by being COWARDS.

We risked -- and got -- war with the British when we tossed the tea over the harbor and started organizing volunteer militias. That risk lead to war, but it also lead to our freedom.

We risked -- and got -- civil war when the nation wrestled with the question, "Is slavery moral?" But our nation came out of the war more unified than before, and closer to the ideal of "all men created equal".

We risked -- and got -- war with Nazi Germany and imperialist Japan when we decided to aid the Allies in every way possible. But that long, bloody war brought to an end some of the most terrible regimes this planet has ever seen.

Individuals risked -- and got -- ridicule, persecution, lynchings, and killings when they decided to stand for civil rights in the 1960's. But those efforts led to improving the United States, making the world's most diverse nations a freer nation for all its citizens.

We achieve NOTHING when we risk NOTHING, when we decide to give in to our fears, and setting a "height limit" on our buildings in order to create fewer terrorist targets is an act of fear.

Beyond that, it's niave to think shorter buildings will do any good. The fact is, the World Trade Center was targeted for a variety of reasons, and its size was not the important reason.

(After all, the largest building in the world is in Kuala Lampur, and that wasn't targeted.)

The WTC was targeted because it was a symbol of American capitalism; it was the literal financial center of the global economy; it was simply on American soil.

You believe we will need to give up skyscrapers to avoid the ire of terrorism. We will also have to give up our economic system, our position in the global economy, and our soveriegnty as a nation.

We will have to become as economically backwards as the twisted little dictatorships that wanted this attack. We will have to become as economically deficient as them. And we'll have to start placing THEIR flags over OUR buildings to get them to even reconsider their war on the United States.

I'm certainly not willing to do that; and at the same time, I'm not willing to give up skyscrapers.

We're Americans. In addition to helping every country that asks, we build monuments to the the greatness of man, the potential of man.

We're Americans. We build skyscrapers. That is what we do, and I'm not willing to change for the sake of our enemies.

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- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 09-14-2001).]

 

[sharky]

Bubba-- I'm sorry but I don't think those analogies work. When we threw tea in to the harbor, we wanted to revolt. When we went after Nazi Germany, our soldiers put their lives at risk to fight. This is different. The people that died woke up in the morning, brushed their teeth and went to work. Yeah, maybe a bigger building would mean we're still big but what's more important: a stupid tall building or a human life? There's a difference between not letting terror get you and being stupid. any building you build on that site is only going to be a new target for terrorism. a bigger building isn't a statement against terrorism-- its a bunch of metal with a big red bull's eye on it.

I don't mean to be rude Bubba but there were people I walked by that morning that are dead. All you are seeing is images on TV. There is a major difference between the two.

 

[Hawk269]

Foxxern:

Are many of Americans cocky and arrogant about our standing in the world? Yes. Is that a reason for people around this world to hate us? No.

You don't hate someone for being cocky. You can resent them, or try to beat them, or speak badly of them. But hate is too strong. You *hate* someone who kills your entire family for no reason. You hate some fundamentalist piece of human garbage for destroying thousands of lives. You hate people for teaching their children to cheer in the streets for innocent people's suffering. That is what it takes for me to *hate*. But those bastards hating us for being number one, or always trying to be the best, is not a sufficient reason. When it comes to freedom and defending basic human rights, the U.S. is the best. Let us remember that above the criticisms about our cockiness.

In my opinion this country is far from perfect, but we are a hell of a lot closer than anyone else.


AJ

 

[Klodomir]

Originally posted by Hawk269:
In my opinion this country is far from perfect, but we are a hell of a lot closer than anyone else.

 

[Hawk269]

That is a cute smilie, but if you want to disagree in intellectual discourse, try using words. I lay down the challenge, show me a better country than ours when it comes to defending freedom and basic human rights.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Hawk269 (edited 09-14-2001).]

 

[The Wanderer]

it was a great building, it should be re-built, maybe not in the exact same blue-print, but re-built none the less (don't know about the bigger part but definitely better, don't ask me, ask an architect)

I don't think re-building it would be a "fuck you" to those that did it, it's more about doing it for the people of New York and people all over the world who don't want to submit to terrorism

I was happy to hear other countries are talking about taking some of the initiative to re-build it, because, after all -- it's the WORLD Trade Center, it belongs to all of us and if countries from around the world contributed to re-building it, it would make even more symbolic

 

[Klodomir]

Originally posted by Hawk269:
That is a cute smilie, but if you want to disagree in intellectual discourse, try using words. I lay down the challenge, show me a better country than ours when it comes to defending freedom and basic human rights.

This is not a competition, AJ, so I'll refrain from listing the countries are just as good or better at it, but your rhetoric is dangerous, and that's what I reacted to. You need to protect your country, not only by force, but also by trying to view it from the outside.

 

[Foxxern]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Amazing how often the U.S. is criticized for having too much, for being so "decadent", so "arrogant", so "elitist".

It's also amazing how often the U.S. helps those in need, even those that call us "decadent", "arrogant", and "elitist".

There is a very fine line between being helpful and compassionate versus being arrogant and chauvinistic. Sometimes when we think we are helping, we really aren't. And sometimes when we think people don't need our help, they do. When we think we're giving them sound advice, they might consider it as us teling them how to live.

Americans are usually found on either side of the line. There are those of us who think the US is too involved, and those who think the US isn't involved enough. Obviously, most of our enemies think we are too involved and they want us to stop interfering.

I think the towers will obviously be rebuilt. There were many important offices that had roles crucial to the goings on in the Wall Street area. The land where they stood is some of the most expensive land in the world, and leaving it empty in the middle of Manhattan would just serve as a reminder of the tragic events that occured there. But we have to rebuild for the right reasons. It has to be for the sake of our economy, and so that we can move along and return to normalcy. We shouldn't do it as a giant "FUCK YOU" to the people who did this. That wouldn't really make us any better.



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Change is the only constant