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Old 10-09-2001, 09:31 PM   #1
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Question Regarding Terrorists

I have a serious question for all who think that instead of retaliating against the terrorists, America should try to remedy the things that "caused" the terrorists to do what they did.

My question is...are you sure you want us to do that? Think about this before you answer.

To "remedy" the things that Terrorists hate about the USA would require quite a bit - and much of it, things that I know not too many of you would actually be willing to do. But, I'll play your game. Here is the United States, after we've addressed and "remedied" these issues.

We are less one dear friend, because Israel was destroyed by all the enemies that surround them when we stopped being involved and turned our back on them. Because Israel is no longer around, we have lost much of our intelligence-gathering ability for the region.

But there's so much more. You are aware, I am sure, that one of the main thing these terrorists hate about us is our free society, which they see as an abomination to God. They hate what our women wear, they hate that women have leading roles in business and government, and they hate Holloywood. So, here's the part where you guys must really help us out, in an effort to stop doing things that make the terrorists mad:

All women should drop out of school, quit their jobs and government positions. They should all stay in the house and are all commanded to do exactly as their husbands tell them, no exceptions. And that new dress you want to wear? Forget it. But you'll look great covered head to toe in the middle of the blazing hot summer. And if you slip up and accidentally show too much ankle, don't worry - you won't do it again. The beating the authorities will give you will help keep you on your toes next time.

And men, you don't get off scot-free. Your beard not long enough? You cabn be beaten or sent to jail, also. And you can forget about going to see that movie you've been anticipating so much. Hollywood's decadence makes the terrorists hate us.

So you see folks, it's not just a simple matter of reshaping a few policies. To get the terrorist types to not hate us require BIG BIG scarifices - sacrifices that I'm sure not many of us are willing to make.
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Old 10-09-2001, 10:42 PM   #2
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here's the point....


.


and oh, you've missed it by miles!!

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Old 10-09-2001, 10:59 PM   #3
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thats very rational, deep and profound 80's.

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Old 10-09-2001, 10:59 PM   #4
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80s:

It's far more simple than that:

If the Jewish people are completely expelled and the state of Israel ceases existence, The Osama and his people seek the following:

(1) overthrow/assasination of moderate governments of Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), Lebanon's Maronite Christian President, and the moderate President of Iran (who is vitrually silent under teh Ayatollah as it is);

(2) replacement with fundamentalist Shar'ia governments which will allow the "ethnic cleansing" of moderate Muslims, Druse, and Maronite Christians;

(3) advance of Shar'ia governments into northern Africa, but NOT "ethnic cleansing" of Christian and animist indigenous peoples, for they will become the slave workforce as in Sudan, Mauritania and Nigeria today;

(4) removal of whichever Pakistani government exists (likely Musharraf or former prime minister Benazir Bhutto - a FEMALE! How EVIL!) and replacement with a Taliban-like governemnt, to prepare for:

(5) aggressive advance into India, far beyond Kashmir, for the simple initiation of a massive civil war; and

(6) installation of Shar'ia regimes in Tajikistan, uzbekistan, etc. although the majority of the moderate Muslim populations don't want them.

Kiss human rights such as religous liberty, free speecha nd women's rights goodbye.
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:01 PM   #5
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Bin laden = Hitler
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:07 PM   #6
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Well, I know I'm one who has said that the US should look at the way they do things O/Seas, but I mean it in a bigger different picture way.
The way I mean when I say the US (and most of Europe and Australia and any other 'western rich' country) should look at their foreign policy (I don't mean specific heavy political issues like say supporting Israel etc) is that I think in general the west should try and 'take care' of the rest of the world more then forget about them or look like they are even being punished.

Pretty soon any country like most of those in Africa, a great number in Asia, Middle East etc who are suffering extreme poverty, disease, horrible treatment from their leaders, all of which is only getting worse and worse and worse, are all going to start looking at the west, which is getting richer and richer, life getting easier and easier, and start to get angry, jealous, and maybe start to find things to point their fingers at and blame us for.

I just think that doing more for those countries (and I know alot is already done) would certainly help (and should be done anyway).

As for how to fix the Middle East politicaly, *SHIT* I can't imagine what it would take to fix that. It's like one of those Russian dolls, you know the ones where you take one layer off and theres another one there? Too many layers....
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:15 PM   #7
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If the west stepped up their funding to poorer countries, what would happen? Wackos in those countries would say that we were trying to make their countries like the west. It's a double-edged sword. If we gave Bin laden or Saddam $50 million to fix up their countries, where do you think that money would go? So do we have remove these people from power? Now won't that piss a bunch of people off? What gives us the right to pick the governments of other countries? You see where I'm going with this?
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Supreme Cutlas:
thats very rational, deep and profound 80's.
You didn't answer the question. If you are one who wants to "consider" what "made" the terrorists do these things, are you willing to look at the situation and make these sacrifices, so that they will hate us less and have less "reasons" to want to kill us? I'm telling you that they don't hate us just for our mideast policies. They hate us because of the way we dress, the way we talk, the movies we make. This is much a "religious" issue for them as it is political. And in their extreme interpretation of their religion, they see us as the "great Satan".
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:20 PM   #9
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U2's ALL THAT YOU CAN'T LEAVE BEHIND is banned in Afghanistan.

How do I know this? Because ALL music is banned in Afghanistan, per the Taliban!

If they don't want our music (that of the West), they don't want our money and advice over there undermining their repressive systems.
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:20 PM   #10
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TylerDurden, I msut say that though I don't agree with everything you say, that was a well-thought out response and clarified your position on some things. Thank you.
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:22 PM   #11
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Perish the thought if we collectively as a country and civilized society have to sit down and reason w/animals such as-and if ever do it will lead to our demise..-
-Jeffery Dahmer
-Timothy McViegh
-John Wayne Gacy
-David Chapman
-Gangus Kahn
-Idi Amin-sp
-Jim Jones
-Ted Bundy
-Charles Manson
-OSAMA BIN FUCKING LADEN

Do you folks get my point?
Thought so..

Thank You-
Godspeed-
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:39 PM   #12
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Yeah Bama/wolfwill I understand that, but surely there are ways to flood things like for example the UN Aids fund thingy with cash and resources without it looking like a western effort to westernise the world. Plus I think there are alot of countries that could take a lead in something like that and not look as 'bad' as the US doing it (I'm sure you understand what I mean by that)

Plus not ALL these countries are anti-west, alot of them are just 'fucked' regardless. More a way of helping them now before they do become anti west.

Obviously can't help the current situation at all, and won't do anything for people like bin Laden and people with religious/political beefs.
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:48 PM   #13
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I understand what you are saying, but why is the west's job to support the rest of the world? And even if we do rebuild Afganistan after we blow the shit out of it, what's to keep the next generation from hating us just as much? Have you seen the Bin laden recruiting video? There are hundreds of kids that look like they're between the ages of 5-15 dressed in cammies sporting AK's. What do we do with a 10-year-old kid who's greatest ambition in life is to kill an American before he dies? No amount of funding will correct that kid's thinking.
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Old 10-10-2001, 07:36 AM   #14
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What do you expect with conflicting religions??
There can never be peace in the Middle East.

Islam can not tolerate Christianity.
Christianity can not Tolerate Islam.
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Old 10-10-2001, 07:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by stagman:
What do you expect with conflicting religions??
There can never be peace in the Middle East.

Islam can not tolerate Christianity.
Christianity can not Tolerate Islam.
Those are dangerous words you have spoken.
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Old 10-10-2001, 07:59 AM   #16
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There has been a lot of discussion in here about what the US could've done differently to avoid this tragedy, why the US "deserved" this, etc. etc. - which of course makes me sad.

No one deserves to be murdered en masse.

You cannot deal with an irrational situation rationally. Osama bin Laden and the Taliban government of Afghanistan have declared Jihad on most of the rest of the world. The United States was chosen, in my opinion, because the media coverage resulting from a successful large strike here would have the largest impact on bringing attention to the cause. I also believe he gambled on the inevitable military retaliation to help whip up support among fundamentalist muslims in the middle east. (Not all of Islam mind you, I know plenty of Islamics who completely condemn what is happening).

Y'all know I do not support war - that I pray for peace and wisdom. But how do you deal with a zealot rationally? If he is successful in winning concessions as a result of this war, then he will only seek to do more. He said in a statement broadcast worldwide that the US will never know safety and security - that is his goal. How can you let that go on?

On the subject of aid, there is a relief worker from right outside of Nashville who has been held by the Taliban government for the past several months. Her crime? She had her bible with her. She was over there on her own time feeding the starving in Afghanistan, and was imprisoned by that government. Can you imagine if the US government imprisoned an Islamic aid worker in the US for praying at the required time?

We should all be free to think and worship as we feel called to do. It is and should be a fundamental HUMAN right.

Peace to you.

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Old 10-10-2001, 08:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
Those are dangerous words you have spoken.
Dangerous cos they ring true or cos you dont agree this is the case, therefore being a dangerous thought pattern?
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Old 10-10-2001, 10:04 AM   #18
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Let me begin by making it clear that I can respect the opinions of my conservative board members whose right-wing opinions have been expressed here. That said, I must passionately disagree with much of what has been expressed in this thread regarding our terrorist plight in this country.

I don't agree with 80'sU2isbest theory that we, as American citizens, would have to make the type or number of sacrifices he mentions in order for Arab countries to stop hating us so much. If I'm to buy into 80's thesis than I'm to believe that the only way the Arab world will stop hating us is for America to become a society of Muslims. That of course will never happen yet 80's insinuates that will be the only way to resolve our differences with the Arab world, therefore making the types of sacrifices he mentions necessary. But I disagree.

Before our elected leaders can begin to effectively change the way the Arab world perceives us they must do a better job at analyzing the problem from the perspective of the Arab world. We, as Americans, are of course biased and we see things only from our perspective. 80'sU2isbest suggests that the Arab world hates us for the clothes our women wear, the movies we make, the music we listen to etc. I acknowledge that certainly this plays an active role, but it goes much deeper into the cultural and political realm than just those things. I mean, just because someone may like jazz music while you may prefer rock music is no reason to hate someone. Therefore, we must look beyond the surface items that mark our differences and look deeper.

Look at it from the plight and perspective of the Arab world and it's citizens. They see an America that suffocates Arab citizens in the Middle East with embargoes and policies that stymie economic development. They see an America that trys to force democracy down their throat with the threat and actual use of bombs and military action. Our government says me must do these things to "protect our national interests" yet I ask you, and this is difficult for us as Americans to even fathom, but would you like it if the roles were reversed? If it was Iraq patrolling OUR airspace and bombing us, cutting off food supplies and "inadvertantly" killing innocent civilians? I know I wouldn't like it and I bet no one else would either, yet that IS the reality to the citizens in the Middle East on a daily basis. It is not shocking to me why they look at us as "the Great Satan". We bully them constantly...and NOBODY likes a bully!

Maybe some of you caught this the other night, but CNN's Crossfire had the former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq on the other night. He served in that role for over 20 years. It was his job to live in Iraq, learn and understand the culture, it's people, traditions, history, and policies. It was then his job to report what he learned to the President and his Cabinet so that they could better understand Iraq. Anyways, all this former Ambassador could say was much of what I've outlined here. That yes, animosity towards America is strong in that region because America is constantly exerting it's influence, power, and policies over there. The former Ambassador went on to say that yes, our economic sanctions have destroyed a generation of families and relegated them to a lifetime of poverty.

My brothers and sisters on the political right would argue that these outcomes, while unfortunate, are a necessary outcome of protecting America's interests in that region. That if we don't keep ourselves actively engaged in that region than the world would be an unsafe place. Well, I don't think it can get much more unsafe than the current environment we find ourselves in so really, does that arguement really have any merits?

I think that if we, as Americans, could analyze this matter from a practical standpoint we could better understand the hatred the Arab world has for us as a country. When America's policies dictate bombings, economic sanctions, and strong-armed tactics against Arab nations, the logical response is going to be outrage and hatred by the people those actions are affecting. Again, nobody likes a bully and I'm afraid that is how America is perceived in the Middle East. And lest we as American's forget, we may be the biggest and most forceful country at this present time in history, but eventually, as history proves, America will NOT be the world's superpower forever. As our beloved Bono wrote in the poignant tune "October", "...kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall..." This is true throughout history and it is naive on anyone's part to think that America will be the ultimate exception. So one day, the tables may very well be turned on us in America, maybe not in our lifetime or our children's, but eventually. We will be the afflicted, we will be the ones getting "bullied" around and I guarantee those who are living here than won't like it much, just like those in the Middle East don't like it today.

No, I don't believe bombs are always the answer. We are currently spending millions upon millions of dollars to effectively bomb a country of nomadic peasants. The irony, of course, is that while we bomb Afghanistan we drop thousands of pounds of food and supplies, apparently to "show our goodwill towards the people of Afghanistan". I'm afraid that while yes, the majority of Americans support this military action it is only adding fire to the flame and further adding to the hatred Arab's in that part of the world have for us.

Our elected leaders need to get off the bully pulpit and tackle our problems with the Arab world pro-actively, not reactively if they want to make America, and hence the world, a truly safe place. I'm not suggesting changing 50+ years of foreign policy at once or withdrawing our support of Israel, but our government MUST do a better job on the diplomatic front with the Arab world.

My opinions are not about being a "wimpy" liberal or some pot smoking, peace loving freak. It's about trying to understand things from the OTHER side of the struggle and rationalizing an appropriate response. I love America and the freedoms that we have. I believe that you can love your country but not love some of the things it does to innocent people of other nations. Is rooting out terrorism a good idea? Yes. Is dropping bombs going to solve the problem? No, it will make it worse as it brings their hatred for America to a higher level.

The natural and first response to a cowardly act such as 9/11 is "to bomb the hell out of whoever is responsible". That is human nature and understandable. But I believe that if our government truly wants peace and to make the world a safer place we need to re-adjust our foreign policy and negotiate on the diplomatic front. But it must be more than words, we must take action to show to these Arab government's and it's people that we are not elitists but rather a land of peaceful citizens. I don't think a sustained bombing campaign is the answer and the longer it goes on the more hatred will build up, adding to the uncertainty of our safety not only here in America but around the world.

I know that people on the political right like to act and talk tough, and I agree that there is a time and a place for that type of rhetoric. But understand the other side, the side that says war, or killing, isn't always the answer. For there is also a time to put the weapons down and resolve our differences man to man, face to face. It may take time in this case, but I believe it can be accomplished.

I didn't lose a loved one or a freind on 9/11, but I certainly lost my innocence and my sense of safety. I was dealt a personal blow, however, as my wife, who has been serving in the Army National Guard for over 10 years now, has been activated as a result of our current military action. She, as I, loves her country and she is loyally, faithfully, and to the best of her ability serving our great land. Does she agree with our bombing campaign? No, but she serves her country diligently none the less.

In conclusion, I think that if we can begin to look at things through the eyes of the Arab community in the Middle East we can get a better understanding of their hatred for us. I contend that this current "war" will only add to that hatred, not solve the terrorist problem as President Bush and his administration would like us to believe. And let us not forget that history repeats itself and that we, America, may one day find ourselves in the same plight as the Arab world, dodging bombs and bullets and wondering where our next meal is coming from because someone imposed economic and political sanctions against our government, which inevitably afflicts and directly effects its citizens. And history will judge us as a nation during this time. The knee-jerk reaction is to seek revenge, the level-headed response is to work our differences out man to man.

So yes, in answer to 80'sU2isbest's question, I think we should try to remedy the things that cause Arabs in the Middle East to hate us and perpetuate acts of violence towards us. We are as guilty of terrorizing them as they are of terrorizing us. They killed over 6,000 lives on 9/11 in a horrific event? How many innocent Arab lives have WE killed, either directly with bombs or indirectly with economic sanctions, over the years? I contend the number is staggering but the majority of us either don't want to acknowledge it or say it was the result of, or in the name of, protecting OUR freedom. That may be so, but it doesn't change the Arab world's perception that we are terrorists in our own rights for these consequences. Remedying the situation diplomatically would not, as 80's asserts, relegate America to a country of Muslim clones, where our women have to be covered up, can't get educated, can't work, or where men have to wear beards. With all due respect to my fellow board member, that is an idea built on "fear", not on logic. For you are already finding that bombing is only INCREASING the resolve and hatred Arab's in the Middle East have towards the west. I fail to see how it is ultimately going to make the world safe, especially when you must understand that we, no matter how successful our military campaign is, will never ultimately root out all the terrorists. Unless we can change the attitudes of the Arab world and their perceptions of America, terrorism will continue and another Bin Laden will rear it's ugly head. Count on it.

We must change the Arab people's minds and attitudes before any concrete changes will be seen. Bombing them into submission won't accomplish that and it isn't the answer. It may make us here at home feel good but it will not provide any long term solutions to the problem of terrorism.

I appreciate the civil debate.

May God continue to bless America.





[This message has been edited by Like someone to blame (edited 10-10-2001).]
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Old 10-10-2001, 10:15 AM   #19
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Can I be very direct?

Nothing in the whole world. Not even the worst foreign policy or the most unjustified intervention into Israel justified September 11's attacks.

Nothing.

And I can't even understand or accept a religion that accepts the concept of 'holy war'.

Never.

So here's my interpretation: Bin Laden and his networks are psychos that are twisting the virtues of the Muslim belief just to satisfy their own atrocities.

And I am amazed, and disappointed at the same time, at the people who believe him. It is just like Hitler all over again. Unhappy people turn to crazy leader who promises them 'freedom'.

Good thing is that, these people never win.
Bad thing is that, lots of innocent people die because of these wackos that believe they could change the world.

And I am not defending the U.S. They have done many things wrong. But even if they did the worst things, nothing justifies Bin Laden's actions.

Nothing.
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Old 10-10-2001, 10:20 AM   #20
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Like someone to blame,
Don't put words in my mouth. I never used the words "Arab World". I used the term "terrorists". I thereby distinguished one fom the other. My post was directed at the hardline extremists who use their religion as a justification to murder, not the majority of the 'Arab World". And if you don't believe that their hatred of us religiously has as much to do with it as their hatred of us politically, then you are wrong. You have a right to be wrong, but you're wrong.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 10-10-2001).]
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