Pop Did Not Fail Because Of The Music, It Failed Because...

[Zoots]

The order/selection of singles wouldn't have mattered, the time of year the record was released wouldn't have mattered. The only way Pop would have sold more is if either U2 made the music on the record more mainstream(which I'm glad they didn't) or if the music-listening public, in America especially(I'm sorry, I am an American but there is no denying that this country is a culture of instant gratification) became more accepting of music that wasn't all about catchy hooks and choruses. Neither of those things was likely at all to happen at that time.

So true!!! Completely agree. I don't know if it was a failure or not. There is no definition out there as to what constitutes a musical failure (No Jick, it's not commercial acclaim or sales ). The point is... the music was not mainstream and that's probably why it didn't sell as well as say JT or AB. I don't give a fuck anyway. I love the album and so do many of you here I'm sure.

 

[allbecauseofu2]

i still look at other bands and how they can't even get a platium album that far into the game. i felt rem realy had a appeal that would make them popular for the rest of thier career, and after 96 thier pretty much a cult band again. not that the music is bad or good, i havn';t heard enough of it, but commercaly i thought rem would doing what u2 is doing now.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

I'm also curious as to why people think that "Last Night On Earth" was a bad single? Is it the catchy, easy to remember chorus?

LNOE was the only single off of Pop to actually be played on the radio around here with any sort of regularity. Discotheque had a little airplay, so did SATS, but LNOE went over very well here.

 

[U2Kitten]

U2Kitten:

I understand where you're coming from, I can totally understand not wanting to be told that you don't 'get' something, but in this case it might be true. In cases like this, I don't really think you can consciously recognize that you don't 'get it' until you do 'get it', if that makes any sense, and so I wouldn't expect you, or any of the people that claim they get it and don't like it, to admit to not 'getting' it because I don't think you or they are consciously aware that it is not being 'got'. If that previous paragraph doesn't confuse you, nothing will

Sigh. I already told you, I DID get it, and it makes no difference.

The whole 'get it' thing is so ridiculous for ANYTHING, not just Pop! NOBODY bases their decision to buy or not buy a CD, or see or not see a movie, or a concert, or a book, whatever, because they don't get it. Besides, how would you know if they 'got it' or not until they had already bought it, and by then their purchase was already counted among the sales of Pop! The reason many fans passed on Pop was because the music did not sound good. Yes the image hurt. But no amount of 'getting it' is going to make someone start liking a song they don't want to hear! Get it??!!

One more thing on how STUPID the 'get it' thing is: don't most people have a hard time understanding lyrics to some songs? But if they like the song they listen anyway, right? Also, Americans scarfed up Macarena, 99 Luftballons and Dominique in large numbers even though they didn't understand a word! People all over the world buy U2 songs even though many of them don't understand one word of English! That proves it, you don't have to get it or even understand it, you either like it or you don't!!

 

[LuvandPeace1980]

I'm also curious as to why people think that "Last Night On Earth" was a bad single? Is it the catchy, easy to remember chorus?

LNOE was the only single off of Pop to actually be played on the radio around here with any sort of regularity. Discotheque had a little airplay, so did SATS, but LNOE went over very well here.

I agree
Had it been finished to begin with, it would have made a really kick arse first or second single.. Just something not energetic enough about it though.. Maybe they could have changed the pace a little bit. I liked the song as a single though, it just never even gt a chance on the adio though.

 

[Zoots]

Sigh. I already told you, I DID get it, and it makes no difference.

The whole 'get it' thing is so ridiculous for ANYTHING, not just Pop! NOBODY bases their decision to buy or not buy a CD, or see or not see a movie, or a concert, or a book, whatever, because they don't get it. Besides, how would you know if they 'got it' or not until they had already bought it, and by then their purchase was already counted among the sales of Pop! The reason many fans passed on Pop was because the music did not sound good. Yes the image hurt. But no amount of 'getting it' is going to make someone start liking a song they don't want to hear! Get it??!!

One more thing on how STUPID the 'get it' thing is: don't most people have a hard time understanding lyrics to some songs? But if they like the song they listen anyway, right? Also, Americans scarfed up Macarena, 99 Luftballons and Dominique in large numbers even though they didn't understand a word! People all over the world buy U2 songs even though many of them don't understand one word of English! That proves it, you don't have to get it or even understand it, you either like it or you don't!!

I see what you're saying. There are many people (including myself sometimes) who cannot be bothered with the lyrics of a song if it sounds really good. I don't care if I don't get the lyrics. I enjoy it for the musical quality. BUT... I can see how somebody may have gone "What the fuck is this? dancing around wearing cowboy hats and sporting molester-staches... a band that once did the yearning With or Without You... this is ridiculous. I'm not gonna listen to this crap anymore.." That guy DIDN'T get it. He based his opinion on the video for Discotheque and didn't really listen to the lyrics and the irony in them.

 

[U2Kitten]

BUT... I can see how somebody may have gone "What the fuck is this? dancing around wearing cowboy hats and sporting molester-staches... a band that once did the yearning With or Without You... this is ridiculous. I'm not gonna listen to this crap anymore.." That guy DIDN'T get it. He based his opinion on the video for Discotheque and didn't really listen to the lyrics and the irony in them.

How do you know he just plain didn't like it and thought it all sucked?

How do you know, he might have known, but still didn't care!

NOBODY reads the true meaning into any lyrics before deciding if they like something or not! Most people make up their own interpretation to songs (IF they even understand the words!) or just don't pay any attention at all. More reasons the 'didn't get it' thing is invalid and doesn't make any sense.


Is there ANY other album in the history of the world anyone has used this stupid argument with?? NO! That proves it's only a common excuse for Pop and nothing else.

 

[Zoots]

Oh yeah.... I'm not making a generalization here. I'm just saying there must be at least some people who didn't 'get it'. Sure, there may have been others who didn't like the way it sounded.

 

[U2Kitten]

I'm still saying even if someone got it or not, if they didn't like it, it still didn't matter. And even if you don't get it you can still like it. So it is all insignificant, and only, once and for all, a matter of personal taste.

 

[Zoots]

Okay, so there may be...

1. People who got the irony and liked the songs.
2. People who didn't get the irony but still liked the songs.
3. People who got the irony but didn't like the songs and
4. People who didn't get the irony and didn't like the songs.

Don't you agree with that? What are we arguing about then?

 

[namkcuR]

I can't speak for the others, but when I was talking about 'getting it', I wasn't referring to the lyrical content or even the conceptual aspects of the record and/or tour. I was referring to the music itself. No lyrics(brilliant as they are imo), just the music.

See, some people listen to Mofo, and what they hear is a techno song with no real melody or anything really memorable. But some people listen to Mofo and hear this unbelievable soul underneath it and, a fire...it's hard to explain.

The point is there are countless types of music, too many to even hope to count. And the fact is, not everyone can appreciate all these types of music. But in my experience, the bigger variety of music you're exposed to at a young age, the bigger variety of music you'll appreciate when you're older. I grew up with two parents who were classical musicians, professionally. They teach it, the perform it, and they know it really well. As a result my brother and myself were always exposed to different types of music; classical, jazz, rock/pop - from the 50s/60s and on up - etc etc etc. When you are exposed to so many different types of music, you are more likely, at least imo, to appreciate and enjoy a wider variety of music in your life. And the thing is, we wouldn't be arguing about Pop so much if it weren't very different from anything else U2 has ever done. It certainly is not your(your in a general sense) every day Top 40 pop/rock music, it takes some effort to get into. Some people are used to having to work at liking or even loving an album, some people don't. Some people like listening to experimental music even if parts of it sound like shit, because it's new and exciting. Some people don't.

So I guess it comes down to what you already said, U2Kitten...it's a matter of personal taste. I submit that personal taste can be effected/influenced by a number of external factors, not the least of which is the sorts of music you were exposed to early on in life.

 

[Bono's shades]

Pop is, in my opinion, U2's most inaccessible album. It takes time to get into; time to understand. In a immediate gratification world the vast majority of people aren't willing to give an album a lot of time to speak to them, which is why pop music will always "speak" to more people than alternative type of music.

To answer your question about how many people I know who "just didn't get it."

I was one. In fact, out of all my friends who are U2 fans, I don't think 1 single person "got it" right away. My first impression was "what the fuck is this?" Add up the image to the music and I couldn't take the music seriously. And when I watched the Popmart Mexico video for the first time?? Again, I was going "what the fuck is this? Why is adam wearing a mirror helmet and a surgens mask...what the fuck is with that muscle suit!!!" It took some time, but I finally "got" the message U2 was trying to put across, as did my friends. Now, being that my friends and I gave it a chance, we agree it's one of U2's best. (It's #2 for me). People simply don't "get" this album because it's inaccessible, the complete opposite of 95% of everything U2 has done. Most people want something that's immediately pleasing to the ears, and when they didn't get that immediacy from POP they quit listening.

That's exactly how it was for me! I friggin' HATED Pop at first because to me it didn't sound like U2. I put it away after a single listen and didn't listen to it for a long, long time afterwards. Then I started to listen to some of the songs bit by bit and realized that Gone and Please are really great songs that should have been classics and Discoteque is a pretty cool track after all. And then it wasn't too far of a leap to start thinking Mofo is mind-blowingly awesome and If You Wear That Velvet Dress is incredibly seductive and so on.

 

[allbecauseofu2]

the version on the best of 90-00 dvd, LNOE sounds better then on the record. was that the single version used in the dvd?

 

[namkcuR]

the version on the best of 90-00 dvd, LNOE sounds better then on the record. was that the single version used in the dvd?

Yeah, that was the single version.

 

[allbecauseofu2]

good stuff.

 

[Yahweh]

It doesnt really make any difference now the people that have it have it...all i can say is I hope a variety of Pop tracks get played this tour.

 

[Miggy D]

It doesnt really make any difference now the people that have it have it...all i can say is I hope a variety of Pop tracks get played this tour.

I hope Gone, Staring at the Sun, and Please all get played.

-Miggy D

 

[allbecauseofu2]

it;s possilble they will.

 

[RobH]

A pretty well thought out analysis. I got the irony of Zoo TV. That worked, coming off all the success of Johusa Tree et al. Pop just seemed stupid. I also recall thinking that they were trying to latch onto some "trend of the moment" (club music) instead of doing what they do best. It seemed way too gimmicky---a gimmick about a gimmick, if you will. Just silliness all around. A lot of long time fans were turned off.

 

[U2Kitten]

A pretty well thought out analysis. I got the irony of Zoo TV. That worked, coming off all the success of Johusa Tree et al. Pop just seemed stupid. I also recall thinking that they were trying to latch onto some "trend of the moment" (club music) instead of doing what they do best. It seemed way too gimmicky---a gimmick about a gimmick, if you will. Just silliness all around. A lot of long time fans were turned off.

You got it!

But like a bad joke, sometimes even when you get it, it's still not funny. That's what happened with Pop (to many of us fans)

 

[namkcuR]

Using the word siliness to describe 'Pop' just makes me want to spit out another 7 paragraph essay about what that statement is itself, silly because of the fact that Pop is the opposite of silliness, but I digress.

Look, 50% of us think Pop is fucking brilliant and the other 50% of us think Pop is utter crap. I don't think anyone is changing their minds any time in the near future, at least not on account of what's been said here, so maybe it's time to drop it - for now.

One thing though; some of you seem to think AB-Zooropa/ZooTV and Pop/Popmart were about the same thing; they weren't, exactly. ZooTV's irony was about mass media, that's what it was making fun of. The irony of Popmart, on the other hand, was about consumerism, the idea that you can sell anything, and that's what it was making fun of. Two different things. They aren't the same.

 

[RobH]

Sigh. I already told you, I DID get it, and it makes no difference.

You make some excellent points, kiten. I like you!

 

[RobH]

Yeah, but namkuR, many of us were tired that they were still making fun of ANYTHING at that point. I like a good joke, but that whole facetiousness thing got stretched way too thin by that point. It was time to move on and they got stuck in a moment. Pun intended, as I've often thought that song described their own career from 1993-2001.

 

[namkcuR]

Yeah, but namkuR, many of us were tired that they were still making fun of ANYTHING at that point. I like a good joke, but that whole facetiousness thing got stretched way too thin by that point. It was time to move on and they got stuck in a moment. Pun intended, as I've often thought that song described their own career from 1993-2001.

But let me pose you this question: is it so hard to look past all the conceptual stuff, and just put on a pair of headphones, close your eyes, and listen to the music, with no images/pictures/concepts/videos/whatever to influence your thoughts about the music?

My apologies if you have in fact done this.

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

I agree
Had it been finished to begin with, it would have made a really kick arse first or second single.. Just something not energetic enough about it though.. Maybe they could have changed the pace a little bit. I liked the song as a single though, it just never even gt a chance on the adio though.

LNOE had a lot of potential, but it was definitely too pedestrian for the sort of song it clearly wanted to be...

 

[U2Kitten]

You make some excellent points, kiten. I like you!

Thanks! Same to you

You summed up a lot of what I was trying to say!

 

[RobH]

A good question namkuR...I have NOT given POP the same chance as other albums....for instance, I have tried over and over again to get into "All That You Can't Leave Behind" and it just doesn't speak to me. Likewise, I was really disappointed when Achtung Baby came out and it wasn't that "old" sound, and I was like, what the F? But I did give it a chance, and within a few listens, I was jamming to it and loving it. It still stands as one of their best albums. So perhaps I do need to revisit POP now that it's eight years removed. But I'll tell ya, all that other junk you mention really did damage to my desire to even WANT to listen to it, so in a sense they are a little bit interwined. I'll get back to you.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

I'm also curious as to why people think that "Last Night On Earth" was a bad single? Is it the catchy, easy to remember chorus?

LNOE was the only single off of Pop to actually be played on the radio around here with any sort of regularity. Discotheque had a little airplay, so did SATS, but LNOE went over very well here.

The album version lacked power IMO... Live version had the energy. Just b/c they yell out the chorus doesn't mean it has power. I can rarely get into the album version of LNOE and the live version gets me pumped.

 

[U2Kitten]

After the 'get it' stuff, the most annoying thing is the 'give it another spin' I do admit I was so initially turned off by Pop I may not have listened to it enough, and all U2 albums- including Bomb and the great UF- took awhile to really come alive to me. I DID try again, and again with Pop. I really did. But other than Gone, SATS and maybe WUDM, all I hear is a noise that I don't like, sorry, just not my type. I especially dislike LNOE, DYFL, MOFO and Discotheque, and Miami and Playboy Mansion are below dislike.

On the subject of airplay, I never heard anything other than SATS played on my local stations, and literally NO Pop songs are played on any 'classic' stations, or, well, any station at all I hear.

But who cares U2 has enough variety to keep us all happy!

 

[Zoots]

I especially dislike LNOE, DYFL, MOFO and Discotheque, and Miami and Playboy Mansion are below dislike.

Oh man! How can you dislike Do You Feel Loved? It's one of the sexiest songs they ever recorded!!! I was listening to it in my car today. And towards the end when Bono croons "do you feeeeel.... do you feeeeeeeeeel...." and sustains it until the main bass line returns Heaven! I almost had an orgasm right there (just like during the Even Better intro)