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Peaked with PopMart?
- Thread starter Pop Pius V
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
I have nothing to add to the conversation at hand. I would just like to state for the record that I think Pop Pius V is an awesome user name.
Carry on.
Carry on.
Clawgrabber
War Child
Yeah, Pop Plus V is indeed an awesome user name, and he/she makes a damned good point. When since then have we seen balls to the wall songs in the same setlist like HMTMKMKM, MOFO, LAST NIGHT ON EARTH?
Am I the only one at the Vertigo and Elevation shows that was thinking "HMTMKMKM" should be a live staple? Same with LNOE and MOFO, matter of fact (As well as Gone and Discotheque... especially that awesome version from Chicago Vertigo)
When I go see a band I want to hear them represent the bulk of their work, at least to some degree. And I would rather hear HMTMKMKM than SYCMOYO any day of the week.
Don't get me wrong, I like both songs, but which one would you rather hear in a stadium full of people (or an arena, as it were)... and while we are on the subject, why not stadiums. I know they may not be financially viable in the states anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't miss the days of melt your face off stadium shows.
Anyone else remember when the skyward spotlights (nightsmashers) during Bullet The Blue Sky on PopMart had local folk (especially in the Midwest) calling the authorities because they thought they were seeing UFOs?
To me that is the true sign of a band really cranking it up. Maybe POPMART was U2 on steriods. Nothing wrong with that in my book.
i would kill to go back and see a Popmart show.
No joke.
Long Live Pop Plus V
Am I the only one at the Vertigo and Elevation shows that was thinking "HMTMKMKM" should be a live staple? Same with LNOE and MOFO, matter of fact (As well as Gone and Discotheque... especially that awesome version from Chicago Vertigo)
When I go see a band I want to hear them represent the bulk of their work, at least to some degree. And I would rather hear HMTMKMKM than SYCMOYO any day of the week.
Don't get me wrong, I like both songs, but which one would you rather hear in a stadium full of people (or an arena, as it were)... and while we are on the subject, why not stadiums. I know they may not be financially viable in the states anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't miss the days of melt your face off stadium shows.
Anyone else remember when the skyward spotlights (nightsmashers) during Bullet The Blue Sky on PopMart had local folk (especially in the Midwest) calling the authorities because they thought they were seeing UFOs?
To me that is the true sign of a band really cranking it up. Maybe POPMART was U2 on steriods. Nothing wrong with that in my book.
i would kill to go back and see a Popmart show.
No joke.
Long Live Pop Plus V
ZOOTVTOURist
Refugee
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
- Messages
- 1,700
Well, I don't think you really can compare two tours – with a decade inbetween – and say, you should set this in, take this out. Different times ...
Behind the POPmart screen '97/'98 was the idea to top the ZOO TV extravaganza '92/'93, to push the concept of "giant stage, giant technology, irony and music" to another level.
And U2 were sucessful in that: They recorded an (exerimental) album, you've not expected by them; they managed a show, you've never seen before (and later) and so they've written a new chapter in rock performences.
But all this glory had an enormous dark side, that became more and more visble. The deadline for the already booked tour dates forced U2 to work constantly on the album under time pressure (we all know this from our everyday jobs, but for U2's creativity and scheduly it's obviously not, what they want). The finished product (what I estimate one of their best works ever!) was not exactly, what they wanted. And another problem: How can we play this strange, compicated low-fi sounding stuff live?
All this uncertainty, the existing musical problems and the economical pressure never left the ambitious four completely during the tour, famous for its great visual ideas (many of them never completed), its stunning music (that sadly was embedded in rather staple, repetetive setlists night after night) and rather comic appearances especially of Bono & The Edge, that let many fans (me included) shake their heads. Examples? U2 destroyed old war horses like "I Will Follow", the B-stage spontaneity was gone as were anthems like "Bad" – instead we were every night singing crap tunes Karaoke. And the last encore, finishing with "One" plus nippet was the least uninspired idea, U2 ever realized in closing a gig.
The truth is: In all its grandezza, POPmart meant the the technics ruling out the music & the songs, putting U2 as musicians in the shadow. Whatever U2 will head for – please never let it happen again!
Behind the POPmart screen '97/'98 was the idea to top the ZOO TV extravaganza '92/'93, to push the concept of "giant stage, giant technology, irony and music" to another level.
And U2 were sucessful in that: They recorded an (exerimental) album, you've not expected by them; they managed a show, you've never seen before (and later) and so they've written a new chapter in rock performences.
But all this glory had an enormous dark side, that became more and more visble. The deadline for the already booked tour dates forced U2 to work constantly on the album under time pressure (we all know this from our everyday jobs, but for U2's creativity and scheduly it's obviously not, what they want). The finished product (what I estimate one of their best works ever!) was not exactly, what they wanted. And another problem: How can we play this strange, compicated low-fi sounding stuff live?
All this uncertainty, the existing musical problems and the economical pressure never left the ambitious four completely during the tour, famous for its great visual ideas (many of them never completed), its stunning music (that sadly was embedded in rather staple, repetetive setlists night after night) and rather comic appearances especially of Bono & The Edge, that let many fans (me included) shake their heads. Examples? U2 destroyed old war horses like "I Will Follow", the B-stage spontaneity was gone as were anthems like "Bad" – instead we were every night singing crap tunes Karaoke. And the last encore, finishing with "One" plus nippet was the least uninspired idea, U2 ever realized in closing a gig.
The truth is: In all its grandezza, POPmart meant the the technics ruling out the music & the songs, putting U2 as musicians in the shadow. Whatever U2 will head for – please never let it happen again!
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It would be their peak visually, if it wasn't for Zoo TV a few years earlier, the weak Bono's vox, the outfits and that karaoke stuff. I concurr it had the strongest flowing setlist.
I don't know...they may well try another huge tour but it will get compared to Zoo TV and Popmart quickly. Like the indoor Vertigo got comparisons to Elevation.
I don't know...they may well try another huge tour but it will get compared to Zoo TV and Popmart quickly. Like the indoor Vertigo got comparisons to Elevation.
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coolian2
Blue Crack Supplier
U2girl said:
Worst still, Vertigo outdoor being compared to Popmart.
And here are the votes from the Zooropean jury:
8 points goes to... Popmart!
10 points goes to... Zoo TV!
12 points goes to... Zooropa!
Popmart: Good fun, but to static setlist and not that killer material that Zoo TV and Zooropa had. And that karaoke thing was really far to cheesy, for me anyhow. Please stood out as the best song in the setlist.
Zoo TV/Zooropa: Groundbreaking. Hysterical. Over the top, in every single way. And U2 in top form, no doubt. Excellent versions av Zoo Station, Streets, Bad.
What I would want? U2 in big stadiums with a show not so much built around videowalls, but more with lights, lights and more lights (and a new form of catwalk, stretching further out into the crowd).
8 points goes to... Popmart!
10 points goes to... Zoo TV!
12 points goes to... Zooropa!
Popmart: Good fun, but to static setlist and not that killer material that Zoo TV and Zooropa had. And that karaoke thing was really far to cheesy, for me anyhow. Please stood out as the best song in the setlist.
Zoo TV/Zooropa: Groundbreaking. Hysterical. Over the top, in every single way. And U2 in top form, no doubt. Excellent versions av Zoo Station, Streets, Bad.
What I would want? U2 in big stadiums with a show not so much built around videowalls, but more with lights, lights and more lights (and a new form of catwalk, stretching further out into the crowd).
ElectricalVoice
Refugee
Actually, I would say the quite opposite of you, Olov:
ZooTV/Zooropa: Good fun, but to static setlist ...
Popmart: Groundbreaking. Hysterical. Over the top, in every single way. And U2 in top form, no doubt.
You have to admit that ZooTV had static setlists, and Popmart much more exciting setlist. I just love the whole idea behind Popmart. Pure genious. Too bad they didn't do it today.
ZooTV/Zooropa: Good fun, but to static setlist ...
Popmart: Groundbreaking. Hysterical. Over the top, in every single way. And U2 in top form, no doubt.
You have to admit that ZooTV had static setlists, and Popmart much more exciting setlist. I just love the whole idea behind Popmart. Pure genious. Too bad they didn't do it today.
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zoopop
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Both setlist were static, but they were both great. ZooTV setlist had some balls by U2 playing 8-9 AB songs from the get go. Popmart was just a killer set. Covered everything while capturing (and making better) the Pop songs.
As for Popmart being U2's highest creative point. I agree. Who comes out of a Lemon?
ZooTV wanted to blow your mind.
Popmart wanted to kick your a**.
And both succeeded with flying colors
As for Popmart being U2's highest creative point. I agree. Who comes out of a Lemon?
ZooTV wanted to blow your mind.
Popmart wanted to kick your a**.
And both succeeded with flying colors
Exciting setlist? I guess it all boils down to whether you prefer Pop or Achtung Baby songs (live that is). And yes, it becomes static when you have big pre-programmed videowalls to synch with. Of the three shows I saw during the Popmart tour, they never changed the setlist. Of the shows I saw during the Zoo TV tour, I got a couple of surprises in the setlist. But that's just my experience. And, to make it clear, I love the extravaganza of Popmart. It will look beautiful on my tv by the time the dvd comes out ('round christmas time, I guess... 
) And it DID feel spectacular back in 1997. Today? I'd say that the memories and feelings from the Zoo-era are stronger. But not much.
) And it DID feel spectacular back in 1997. Today? I'd say that the memories and feelings from the Zoo-era are stronger. But not much.
vaz02
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Peak this peak that
/care
Best is yet to come.
/care
Best is yet to come.
Mofo
Refugee
Re: Re: Peaked with PopMart?
you've got to be kidding "playing it safe"???? if anything the last two albums are "playing it safe" and I've never bitched about ATYCLB and HTDAAB cause I do enjoyed them a lot, but Pop was the last time U2 pushed their creativity without any fears
and following hip musical trends??? pop doesn't sound like anything before that and after that, a few loop and a couple of dance beats doesn't make Pop a Dance or Electronica record if anything Pop has aged betther than most of U2's albums
and the opening show was due to very little rehearsing but i don't have to tell you that since we all know had that story goes
....however i do find it very debatable as to which tour was better, zootv was more groundbreaking that's for sure
U2Man said:
you've got to be kidding "playing it safe"???? if anything the last two albums are "playing it safe" and I've never bitched about ATYCLB and HTDAAB cause I do enjoyed them a lot, but Pop was the last time U2 pushed their creativity without any fears
and following hip musical trends??? pop doesn't sound like anything before that and after that, a few loop and a couple of dance beats doesn't make Pop a Dance or Electronica record if anything Pop has aged betther than most of U2's albums
and the opening show was due to very little rehearsing but i don't have to tell you that since we all know had that story goes
....however i do find it very debatable as to which tour was better, zootv was more groundbreaking that's for sure
OP
OP
Pop Pius V
The Fly
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that's exactly what I was talking about.
Exactly what I was feeling and what lead me to post. I'm satisfied about the responses. I think there are those out there who view popmart as an aberration in the band's history and I think it's the opposite. So I think that's interesting.
This whole started with watching pop mart sao saulo over and over again in the last two months and really seeing the band for every reason that I love them for. I know that I'm going to make every effort to see them out of the country when they tour next because I think it's the u.s. response to popmart that has lead them to tone it down in the last 10 years. They pulled back and left the lemon and the bubble suit and all that stuff that I loved from that tour.
I think u2 is a stadium band and I think it's a shame that americans being too self concious to really let go and enjoy the spectacle. Mofo was supposed to disorient just like zoostation was to zootv and I think a lot of people never recovered from that pop music/mofo intro. They just said "what? u2 must've sold out cause I don't get this."
But it was just the boys being the boys again.
I want them to take that risk again. I want that experience again.
I don't know.
Rambling.
doctorwho
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Re: Re: Peaked with PopMart?
Surprisingly, I don't disagree too much with this.
U2 took ZOO TV and expanded it. Yes, the huge screen was great. But the arch? Giant olive? Mirrored lemon? Most were useless props that didn't really serve the tour. It's almost like U2 were saying, "See - look at that Golden Arch. That's a symbol for something. Get it? Get it? Yep, we're ironic!" Blah. Zoo TV came across as fresh and wildly different - especially for U2. PopMart came across as a bit of a repeat.
Yes, the Vertigo Tour can be seen as a repeat as well. Instead of a heart, there's the oval. But they curtain videos worked. And U2 didn't try to outdo the Elevation Tour by going bigger - they just updated it. And I think that's why it worked better.
Of course, if U2 try another version of the Elevation/Vertigo Tour, I do think they'll suffer for it. They have to try something a bit different.
Trouble is, it's a concert. How different can a show really be? But that's why U2 are U2 - they (and their crew) are rewarded for their tours.
U2Man said:
Surprisingly, I don't disagree too much with this.
U2 took ZOO TV and expanded it. Yes, the huge screen was great. But the arch? Giant olive? Mirrored lemon? Most were useless props that didn't really serve the tour. It's almost like U2 were saying, "See - look at that Golden Arch. That's a symbol for something. Get it? Get it? Yep, we're ironic!" Blah. Zoo TV came across as fresh and wildly different - especially for U2. PopMart came across as a bit of a repeat.
Yes, the Vertigo Tour can be seen as a repeat as well. Instead of a heart, there's the oval. But they curtain videos worked. And U2 didn't try to outdo the Elevation Tour by going bigger - they just updated it. And I think that's why it worked better.
Of course, if U2 try another version of the Elevation/Vertigo Tour, I do think they'll suffer for it. They have to try something a bit different.
Trouble is, it's a concert. How different can a show really be? But that's why U2 are U2 - they (and their crew) are rewarded for their tours.
catlhere
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I didn't like Popmart unfortunately. 
Zoo TVs imagery and grandious nature played well with the songs and it all melted into one huge "experience" rather than a concert. Popmart just seemed like an overdone attempt to be bigger and better and more ironic than before.
I know people would disagree but, IMO it's almost like they were trying to compensate for the rough new material and tired sounding performances of stuff like IWF with as much eye candy and gimmicks as possible. To me it came off as more style than substance, and that just didn't feel very... U2.
Zoo TVs imagery and grandious nature played well with the songs and it all melted into one huge "experience" rather than a concert. Popmart just seemed like an overdone attempt to be bigger and better and more ironic than before.
I know people would disagree but, IMO it's almost like they were trying to compensate for the rough new material and tired sounding performances of stuff like IWF with as much eye candy and gimmicks as possible. To me it came off as more style than substance, and that just didn't feel very... U2.
Zoots
Blue Crack Supplier
Re: Re: Re: Peaked with PopMart?
Don't bother with this forum. People here will continue to call Pop a techno album when Bono himself called Mofo a rock song... "that's Larry behind the drums, you know!". As much as I enjoyed the Vertigo tour especially cos it was the first time I saw them live, still I agree with what you said. Pop was indeed the last time U2 pushed their creativity without any fears.
Mofo said:
Don't bother with this forum. People here will continue to call Pop a techno album when Bono himself called Mofo a rock song... "that's Larry behind the drums, you know!". As much as I enjoyed the Vertigo tour especially cos it was the first time I saw them live, still I agree with what you said. Pop was indeed the last time U2 pushed their creativity without any fears.
Mofo
Refugee
yes I know and I really don't have a problem with people not liking Pop or the Popmart Tour at the end of the day it's about personal taste but the last time they really pushed things creatively speaking was in Pop whether they succeeded or failed miserably it's up to each person
...but playing it safe, being desperate or at a creative low at that point in their career was not the case
...but playing it safe, being desperate or at a creative low at that point in their career was not the case
Zoots
Blue Crack Supplier
Mofo said:
Exactly!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Peaked with PopMart?
They had their pants down during the Popmart era, trying to save the poor sales of Pop with classic u2 sound like IGWSHA and SATS, 2 miserable ballads. They should have released Mofo and Miami if they were so brave and so proud of their new kick ass songs.
If they had no fear, why did they release SATS and not Mofo as their 2nd single ?Zootlesque said:
They had their pants down during the Popmart era, trying to save the poor sales of Pop with classic u2 sound like IGWSHA and SATS, 2 miserable ballads. They should have released Mofo and Miami if they were so brave and so proud of their new kick ass songs.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Peaked with PopMart?
That's not being scared, that's just intelligence. I'd do the same thing.
guill said:
That's not being scared, that's just intelligence. I'd do the same thing.
Mofo
Refugee
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Peaked with PopMart?
They did release Mofo as a single at least in SouthAmerica but maybe that doesn't count since it's not the USA....and they did had their pants down at the beginning of the tour, they were unrehearsed and attacked by the media in terms of the tour, the album for the most part had great reviews...you can't really compare the 1st leg with the rest
guill said:
They did release Mofo as a single at least in SouthAmerica but maybe that doesn't count since it's not the USA....and they did had their pants down at the beginning of the tour, they were unrehearsed and attacked by the media in terms of the tour, the album for the most part had great reviews...you can't really compare the 1st leg with the rest
Zoots
Blue Crack Supplier
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Peaked with PopMart?
The poor sales of Pop probably killed whatever sense of risk-taking they had!
guill said:
The poor sales of Pop probably killed whatever sense of risk-taking they had!
CPTLCTYGOOFBALL
War Child
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- Sep 27, 2004
- Messages
- 537
My seats for popmart were the best I've had for a U2 concert, which was cool. I liked the tour alot more than I liked the album, but not near U2s peak IMO.
As U2Man said, I don't doubt most fans would kill to have seen an Outside Broadcast show over a PopMart show.
ZooTV got the message across with art and with edge. PopMart tried to get a similar message across (granted, a more pointed one), but did it with art, edge, and cheese...succumbing at times to the latter. Taking half of Edge's karaoke performances and the lemon spaceship out of those shows would be like removing Jar-Jar Binks from Episode I. [/analogy]
In the end, I believe there is still fire in the band and that it's possible to see it on stage yet again. I'm sure that there were fans of the 1980-83 U2 who were used to the punkish nature of those shows and who felt that the UF and JT tours, although amazing shows, lacked the energy of the early tours simply because of the nature the music and the band took on in that period. Yet, in time, they broke out of drollness of "Love Rescue Me" and shot into ZooTV & PopMart. So, too, shall modern U2 emerge from "Stuck" and fire off into something great again.
ZooTV got the message across with art and with edge. PopMart tried to get a similar message across (granted, a more pointed one), but did it with art, edge, and cheese...succumbing at times to the latter. Taking half of Edge's karaoke performances and the lemon spaceship out of those shows would be like removing Jar-Jar Binks from Episode I. [/analogy]
In the end, I believe there is still fire in the band and that it's possible to see it on stage yet again. I'm sure that there were fans of the 1980-83 U2 who were used to the punkish nature of those shows and who felt that the UF and JT tours, although amazing shows, lacked the energy of the early tours simply because of the nature the music and the band took on in that period. Yet, in time, they broke out of drollness of "Love Rescue Me" and shot into ZooTV & PopMart. So, too, shall modern U2 emerge from "Stuck" and fire off into something great again.
Earnie Shavers
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I think it's quite obvious from these posts and a lot of reviews at the time that it was a step too far for many. Not in a "you don't get it" way, because I certainly 'got' it, and loved it overall, but still had a line (loved the screen, loved the arch, loved the karaoke, but cringed at the lemon).
I certainly don't think it was a shallow concept based solely on outdoing ZooTV in size and nothing else. It was as clever and had as much depth as the overall ZooTV concept, easily, it's just that the very nature of it was to be shallow and cheesy, and it's that which fell flat for many. There was a line there for many with ZooTV as well. There were plenty who loved the whole thing, understood the whole concept.... right up until Bono appears in makeup and a gold suit, then for a variety of reasons (be they Christian and not understanding the whole mock-the-devil thing, or be they just fans of a more earnest U2 who don't like to see their man in lipstick, or be they fans who didn't understand how it fit with the rest of the message and thought it was just a bit lame) it was a turn off. Nothing wrong with that.
Popmarts concept and execution, I thought, was just as fantastic as ZooTV's, if just not as complicated on the surface. With ZooTV, it's not all at the front. There's a lot going on (and I don't just mean in the Zoo multimedia barrage sense) that is telling you - even if you have no idea what it is - that there's a deeper idea and message going on here. But because Popmarts was by it's very nature a surface level shallow and cheesy show, with flashy and oversize everything, it's easy for it to only register at that surface level and thus just look like a band being over the top for the sake of being over the top. I think pretty much everyone in here 'gets it' and I'm certainly not suggesting otherwise, but for many, that line of understanding and acceptance happened a lot earlier and a lot more often during Popmart than ZooTV. The whole thing was about shallow consumerism and commercialism, as told through the medium of pop art, and with U2 happy to sacrifice completely their own well crafted image and even music in the process of getting it across. More than happy to lump 'U2' into the cheese bin in the same way pop art for a couple of decades previously had broken down other commercial icons. Everything else made sense wrapped up in that concept. So they're showing highlights of pop art past, all of them following the same notion of breaking down consumerism and commercialism. They do this on this fucking massive screen, surrounded by oversize props, not unlike the sculptures you'll find in the middle of the room in any pop art exhibition anywhere in the world, right alongside the Warhols and Harings and Lichtensteins hanging on the wall (or screen, in this case). Meanwhile, right in front of you, U2 are breaking themselves down, overdoing and oversizing themselves in muscle shirts and orange jumpsuits, like a cartoon/anime version of themselves that just fell right off that screen onto the stage. They're even giving their own oh-so-earnest music a dressing down, throwing a bit of cheesy karaoke in there to completely undercut the old school seriousness of the songs before and after, deliberately taking something like Streets away from it's quasi religious place in many hearts and putting it straight into it's pop culture place in history right next to a f*cking Monkee's song or something, and then even giving some of the classics a half arsed cabaret feel (my bet is Bono's mumbling, lazy "lets just get through this" version of With or Without You on this tour were completely deliberate).
They couldn't stand there as the biggest band in the world, one of the most commercially successful rock outfits ever, this massive monolithic touring machine, with this incredibly cleverly crafted brand and image, and just trash commercialism and consumerism alone without acknowledging that they themselves are as much a part of it as a Cambells soup tin, or a Lara Croft video game, or a McDonalds arch. They had to take all of that side of themselves down as well, and I thought they did it brilliantly.
I'd be amazed if they were naive enough to think that this wouldn't have it's own massive backlash. That people wouldn't like seeing this band and that music turned on it's head in such a way, which to me is where the real balls of it exist. Like I said, there were only a couple of moments in ZooTV where I think people would have thought it was too much, and the band still did enough on the flipside to keep them relatively happy, ie that stretch of "too far" MacPhisto was balanced by the 'old school' segment of no makeup, no characters, just belting out Streets and Pride in all their serious glory. Or Edge sitting there by himself mumbling through Numb, matched by the 'new' up close B-Stage set without any trickery of smoke'n'mirrors. You dig? Popmart never gave you that. For every moment that may have made someone cringe, they just responded with... another moment that probably made you cringe.
I'm rambling now. Hopefully I make sense. I guess my point is, you don't have to like Popmart, but it certainly was no step backwards from ZooTV, in concept or execution. And I think, if anything, it helped them out with what has come today. I think that for them, publicly acknowledging that no matter how seriously they take themselves, no matter how seriously their fans treat them or their music, that they are also just another heavily branded and commercialised product for sale in a Kmart - I think that is what has given them the room now to indulge in that side of themselves without too serious a public backlash, no matter how much some of us may hate it in here. Acknowledging first of all that they are what they are, then showing us in a spectacular way that they don't really care that they are what they are, and then, finally, indulging in it and demanding that they want more of it. That they in fact don't want to be the best, but the biggest. It's kinda more of that mock the devil stuff really. They mocked everything about themselves by trashing it, and that gave them the room to then turn around and play up to it - iPod ad's, mass Grammy raids, tacky MTVised video clips, heavily commercialising the music. It was sort of a "Ok, let's be honest here...." moment, and once 'we' accepted the shock of that, they were able to move onwards as a mass commercial brand without, I guess, any guilt, or without being hypocrites in any way.
Say to U2 now "You know you guys have become nothing more than a brand, mass producing nothing more than an image" and Bono will probably say "Yeah dickhead, we know that, you didn't see Popmart did you?"
I still hated the whole descending from the lemon though. F*king ridiculous.
I certainly don't think it was a shallow concept based solely on outdoing ZooTV in size and nothing else. It was as clever and had as much depth as the overall ZooTV concept, easily, it's just that the very nature of it was to be shallow and cheesy, and it's that which fell flat for many. There was a line there for many with ZooTV as well. There were plenty who loved the whole thing, understood the whole concept.... right up until Bono appears in makeup and a gold suit, then for a variety of reasons (be they Christian and not understanding the whole mock-the-devil thing, or be they just fans of a more earnest U2 who don't like to see their man in lipstick, or be they fans who didn't understand how it fit with the rest of the message and thought it was just a bit lame) it was a turn off. Nothing wrong with that.
Popmarts concept and execution, I thought, was just as fantastic as ZooTV's, if just not as complicated on the surface. With ZooTV, it's not all at the front. There's a lot going on (and I don't just mean in the Zoo multimedia barrage sense) that is telling you - even if you have no idea what it is - that there's a deeper idea and message going on here. But because Popmarts was by it's very nature a surface level shallow and cheesy show, with flashy and oversize everything, it's easy for it to only register at that surface level and thus just look like a band being over the top for the sake of being over the top. I think pretty much everyone in here 'gets it' and I'm certainly not suggesting otherwise, but for many, that line of understanding and acceptance happened a lot earlier and a lot more often during Popmart than ZooTV. The whole thing was about shallow consumerism and commercialism, as told through the medium of pop art, and with U2 happy to sacrifice completely their own well crafted image and even music in the process of getting it across. More than happy to lump 'U2' into the cheese bin in the same way pop art for a couple of decades previously had broken down other commercial icons. Everything else made sense wrapped up in that concept. So they're showing highlights of pop art past, all of them following the same notion of breaking down consumerism and commercialism. They do this on this fucking massive screen, surrounded by oversize props, not unlike the sculptures you'll find in the middle of the room in any pop art exhibition anywhere in the world, right alongside the Warhols and Harings and Lichtensteins hanging on the wall (or screen, in this case). Meanwhile, right in front of you, U2 are breaking themselves down, overdoing and oversizing themselves in muscle shirts and orange jumpsuits, like a cartoon/anime version of themselves that just fell right off that screen onto the stage. They're even giving their own oh-so-earnest music a dressing down, throwing a bit of cheesy karaoke in there to completely undercut the old school seriousness of the songs before and after, deliberately taking something like Streets away from it's quasi religious place in many hearts and putting it straight into it's pop culture place in history right next to a f*cking Monkee's song or something, and then even giving some of the classics a half arsed cabaret feel (my bet is Bono's mumbling, lazy "lets just get through this" version of With or Without You on this tour were completely deliberate).
They couldn't stand there as the biggest band in the world, one of the most commercially successful rock outfits ever, this massive monolithic touring machine, with this incredibly cleverly crafted brand and image, and just trash commercialism and consumerism alone without acknowledging that they themselves are as much a part of it as a Cambells soup tin, or a Lara Croft video game, or a McDonalds arch. They had to take all of that side of themselves down as well, and I thought they did it brilliantly.
I'd be amazed if they were naive enough to think that this wouldn't have it's own massive backlash. That people wouldn't like seeing this band and that music turned on it's head in such a way, which to me is where the real balls of it exist. Like I said, there were only a couple of moments in ZooTV where I think people would have thought it was too much, and the band still did enough on the flipside to keep them relatively happy, ie that stretch of "too far" MacPhisto was balanced by the 'old school' segment of no makeup, no characters, just belting out Streets and Pride in all their serious glory. Or Edge sitting there by himself mumbling through Numb, matched by the 'new' up close B-Stage set without any trickery of smoke'n'mirrors. You dig? Popmart never gave you that. For every moment that may have made someone cringe, they just responded with... another moment that probably made you cringe.
I'm rambling now. Hopefully I make sense. I guess my point is, you don't have to like Popmart, but it certainly was no step backwards from ZooTV, in concept or execution. And I think, if anything, it helped them out with what has come today. I think that for them, publicly acknowledging that no matter how seriously they take themselves, no matter how seriously their fans treat them or their music, that they are also just another heavily branded and commercialised product for sale in a Kmart - I think that is what has given them the room now to indulge in that side of themselves without too serious a public backlash, no matter how much some of us may hate it in here. Acknowledging first of all that they are what they are, then showing us in a spectacular way that they don't really care that they are what they are, and then, finally, indulging in it and demanding that they want more of it. That they in fact don't want to be the best, but the biggest. It's kinda more of that mock the devil stuff really. They mocked everything about themselves by trashing it, and that gave them the room to then turn around and play up to it - iPod ad's, mass Grammy raids, tacky MTVised video clips, heavily commercialising the music. It was sort of a "Ok, let's be honest here...." moment, and once 'we' accepted the shock of that, they were able to move onwards as a mass commercial brand without, I guess, any guilt, or without being hypocrites in any way.
Say to U2 now "You know you guys have become nothing more than a brand, mass producing nothing more than an image" and Bono will probably say "Yeah dickhead, we know that, you didn't see Popmart did you?"
I still hated the whole descending from the lemon though. F*king ridiculous.
Earnie Shavers
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Oh, and in regards to U2's peak, I don't think there really is one, but I think 87-93 was one hell of run. That's 6 years, give or take 6months either side. The time between the release of ATYCLB and now (approx), and in that time they spat out The Joshua Tree, Rattle & Hum, Achtung Baby and Zooropa - as diverse a collection of 4 albums as virtually anyone has produced - went on 3 major tours and gave themselves a top to bottom overhaul in between. Not the peak, but certainly the defining moment in time.
Zoots
Blue Crack Supplier
Earnie Shavers said:
Man, you're a brilliant writer!
Are you a journalist by profession?Ifeelnumb84
War Child
elevated_u2_fan said:
That seems like a perfectly legitimate way to compare them.
Apples and oranges are two different types of fruits, and ZooTV and PopMart are two different tours.
So let's make some comparisons.
Let's see, apples are red (or green) and are a bit harder than oranges. Oranges are citrus, while apples are not.
So I guess what I'm saying is, saying that "it's like comparing apples to oranges" means that it can and should be compared.
I also have way too much free time on my hands to craft such an inane response.
Oh, and I think ZooTV is better, because PopMart was kinda the same idea but with less substance.
Earnie Shavers
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
