New U2 albums spark fury!

[Screwtape2]

This is a great point. The only place where I'd disagree with you is that I really believe that cash flow has nothing to do with it. U2 simply wants to be the biggest and best band in the world. They are extraordinarily ambitious to a (morally questionable) level that does perhaps have too great an influence on the music they are making.

On the other hand, I think U2 is just open and honest about something which many bands feel (i.e. we want to be the best) but simply think it in bad taste to admit to the public.

Cool.

 

[ramblin rose]

My problem with giving U2 the benefit of the doubt these days is that I believe their focus these days is in itself greedy. I'll explain. As Bram said, U2 wants to stay the biggest band in the world and in turn focuses on casual fans and trying to appeal to new people. Isn't that greed. Shouldn't the band make music for themselves and let the releases be run according to their artistic vision and their fanbase? U2 releases music based on sales and the ability to get around so that...they may remain the biggest band in the world. Remaining the biggest band in the world means the cash continues to flow and being motivated on that is called what? Greed.

I'm not convinced they don't like the music they're releasing. I do think they want and always have wanted to be the biggest band in the world. I think it has more to do with ego and insecurities than greed though.

 

[bram]

I'm not convinced they don't like the music they're releasing. I do think they want and always have wanted to be the biggest band in the world. I think it has more to do with ego and insecurities than greed though.

Exactly. It was ok to want to be the biggest band in the world when they were untalented nobodies from Dublin. Understandably (or not), their feelings didn't change when they actually became the biggest band in the world.

"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the bad guy."

 

[Screwtape2]

I'm not convinced they don't like the music they're releasing. I do think they want and always have wanted to be the biggest band in the world. I think it has more to do with ego and insecurities than greed though.

That's the thing. It is open to interpretation which is why it is fair to interpret their actions as greed or as insecurity. That makes it fair for some fans to not give U2 the benefit of the doubt. U2 themselves have created an atmosphere where their releases are open fairly to criticism over their intentions.

 

[ramblin rose]

That's the thing. It is open to interpretation which is why it is fair to interpret their actions as greed or as insecurity. That makes it fair for some fans to not give U2 the benefit of the doubt. U2 themselves have created an atmosphere where their releases are open fairly to criticism over their intentions.

You're probably right. I guess I'm a little overly sensitive about this. Maybe reading day after day in the new album forum and about how bad titles and songs are that haven't even been released yet has gotten to me.

If you think it's greed that fine. You have the right. Following U2 since the beginning leads me to believe differently.

 

[bram]

That's the thing. It is open to interpretation which is why it is fair to interpret their actions as greed or as insecurity. That makes it fair for some fans to not give U2 the benefit of the doubt. U2 themselves have created an atmosphere where their releases are open fairly to criticism over their intentions.

But this again brings me back to the hypothetical Edge quote point. Is it really fair to not give them the benefit of the doubt? Not only do I find the greed motivation highly unlikely, but it is also hugely insulting. If people as rich as U2 are truly making their product content decisions (i.e. the music and videos being released on albums/concerts) based on money-making, then they are simply bad, morally-depraved people. That's not the U2 I see when I watch "A day in the life of the Edge" or 10/01 MSG concert footage. It's just not.

 

[Addicted To Bad]

I´m a U2´s diehard fan and if they put an empty box to sell only with they signature on it, I will buy it ! I have all U2´s stuff and even this empty box will have something very special inside, anyway, for sure ! It´s U2´material ...

Take care of YOUR money, dear "editor of the Belfast Telegraph" and what I do with MINE is not is business.




______________________
AM I BUGGIN´YOU ?

 

[toscano]

Perhaps they can't be dismissed, but what about their arguments?

While my Edge quote was a crass attempt at humor, I still think that it brings up a very good point. What, besides the tracks chosen for the discs, link this product (or any of their others) to greed? I'd like to know what the specific arguments are.

For one, the price.

Double CD or CD/DVD combos are routinely offered for $13.99, and that is for NEW product, not just re-compiled older stuff that is already recorded and available.

There are more, but that should get you started.

 

[bram]

For one, the price.

Double CD or CD/DVD combos are routinely offered for $13.99, and that is for NEW product, not just re-compiled older stuff that is already recorded and available.

There are more, but that should get you started.

I think this is a fair point--to a degree.

For one, I don't think U2 (as in the band) have much input into the marketing/pricing. You could definitely argue that if they cared more about their fans, they would be more proactive in this department...but they probably don't have much control over the Universal behemoth. Maybe they should never have signed that contract, and on and on.

Also, these aren't your standard jewel-case double CD releases. They went for nicer materials and nicer booklets. I actually appreciate this but I can understand why many would rather just have the cheapest materials and booklet and lower the price. As an aside, I actually don't have these releases due to student-associated poverty...but if I ever can get them as a gift, I will definitely be glad for the nicer box similar to the JT remaster.

How was that?

 

[bram]

In the end, everything is really a compromise. U2 fans are very diverse and JT remaster (with DVD) notwithstanding, it's pretty difficult to come up with a perfect release.

The funny thing is, I actually share many of the concerns you guys have. But I guess I just woke up and decided to be a U2 defender today, especially because I am REALLY glad about the remaster releases. U218 is maybe a different story.

 

[Screwtape2]

But this again brings me back to the hypothetical Edge quote point. Is it really fair to not give them the benefit of the doubt? Not only do I find the greed motivation highly unlikely, but it is also hugely insulting. If people as rich as U2 are truly making their product content decisions (i.e. the music and videos being released on albums/concerts) based on money-making, then they are simply bad, morally-depraved people. That's not the U2 I see when I watch "A day in the life of the Edge" or 10/01 MSG concert footage. It's just not.

U2 has opened up this area of thought with their actions and mentality. You can't blame the people. The band given them reason to think the way they do.

 

[bram]

U2 has opened up this area of thought with their actions and mentality. You can't blame the people. The band given them reason to think the way they do.

Fair enough. I often find myself agreeing with this line of thought. But I think that if you really think it through, it ultimately doesn't make sense.

 

[Screwtape2]

I think this is a fair point--to a degree.

For one, I don't think U2 (as in the band) have much input into the marketing/pricing. You could definitely argue that if they cared more about their fans, they would be more proactive in this department...but they probably don't have much control over the Universal behemoth. Maybe they should never have signed that contract, and on and on.

Just throwing it out there. Knowing about the high price of the bonus disc, shouldn't Edge have actually created something that actually made spending that money worth it for everyone?

 

[toscano]

I think this is a fair point--to a degree.

For one, I don't think U2 (as in the band) have much input into the marketing/pricing. You could definitely argue that if they cared more about their fans, they would be more proactive in this department...but they probably don't have much control over the Universal behemoth. Maybe they should never have signed that contract, and on and on.

Also, these aren't your standard jewel-case double CD releases. They went for nicer materials and nicer booklets. I actually appreciate this but I can understand why many would rather just have the cheapest materials and booklet and lower the price. As an aside, I actually don't have these releases due to student-associated poverty...but if I ever can get them as a gift, I will definitely be glad for the nicer box similar to the JT remaster.

How was that?

Not bad, but the added costs on a per unit basis for the better packaging are minimal (I'm talking about the 2-CD sets which retail at $34.99 (???!!WTF!!!) but can easily be found for $19.99 (still about $6 too much) there's a LOT of mark-up there. I get stuff made up for our office all the time and I'm sure they can get better deals than I can.

I'll give you an extra buck for the packaging, anything more and someone isn't doing a good job on the purchasing side.

The JT remaster was different. Content that was previously unavailable anywhere else, an iconic album that was DESPARATELY in need of a remaster, a bonus DVD which while widely available was a drastic quality improvement, etc. I didn't mind shelling out for that one, but the combination of marginally 'valuable' added content (esp. with the War bonus CD) and the ridiculous price means these are freebies for now until there's a copy in a bargain bin.

 

[BVS]

For one, the price.

Double CD or CD/DVD combos are routinely offered for $13.99, and that is for NEW product, not just re-compiled older stuff that is already recorded and available.

There are more, but that should get you started.

Two things:

How much control do you honestly think U2 have over price?

and

Where do you get this double CD price of $13.99?

Best Buy now has the deluxe issues for $19.99, seems pretty good to me.

 

[bram]

Just throwing it out there. Knowing about the high price of the bonus disc, shouldn't Edge have actually created something that actually made spending that money worth it for everyone?

I would actually argue that the Edge probably doesn't realize how many fans have access to this material already (or perhaps we overestimate our numbers). Judging from other recent U2 decisions, Edge was probably thinking along these lines: what would make this disc maximally interesting for a range of U2 fans? Now, whether is achieved this or not is up for debate. But I think bringing dollar signs into it just doesn't fit.

 

[bram]

Not bad, but the added costs on a per unit basis for the better packaging are minimal (I'm talking about the 2-CD sets which retail at $34.99 (???!!WTF!!!) but can easily be found for $19.99 (still about $6 too much) there's a LOT of mark-up there. I get stuff made up for our office all the time and I'm sure they can get better deals than I can.

I'll give you an extra buck for the packaging, anything more and someone isn't doing a good job on the purchasing side.

The JT remaster was different. Content that was previously unavailable anywhere else, an iconic album that was DESPARATELY in need of a remaster, a bonus DVD which while widely available was a drastic quality improvement, etc. I didn't mind shelling out for that one, but the combination of marginally 'valuable' added content (esp. with the War bonus CD) and the ridiculous price means these are freebies for now until there's a copy in a bargain bin.

These are great points and, honestly, I'm inclined to agree with you. I guess then it boils down to this: does the band have any control over this aspect of the release...and would they even know a fair price if they saw it? They are uber-rich after all.

 

[U2girl]

The other fallacy is this: just because there is a bonus disc involved, doesn't mean it was aimed anywhere near the hardcore fans (as in the fans with every possible demo/live track available). U2 is not hardcore friendly, as they have shown with quotes about front-row fans. And honestly this makes a lot of sense from their perspective. You don't become the biggest band in the world by playing to your base. You have to grow and move out.

The 2nd discs were aimed in between the casual and the hardcore--a much bigger demographic.

Sucks for us, but not for the medium level fan who would have to sit through Life on a Distant Planet.

U2 has grown and moved out, with albums. But I think the argument "U2 doesn't care about hard core fans" isn't true. It is possible to expand the fandom while still keeping the core of your fan base happy. It's not the "I want more money" attitude, it's more about the lines of being relevant in the eyes of each new generation of younger audiences. It's what saved them with AB, and with the last two albums and it's what's keeping them at this level of popularity since 1987.

Who has bought the Zoo TV, Popmart and (once it comes) Red rocks on DVD ? Who's buying these remasters ? And who enjoyed the comeback of old songs on the last two tours ? Casual fans ? I don't think so. Just as that box set Edge said they'd do once they retire.

U2 put less unreleased material because they're notoriously perfectionist when it comes to studio releases.

 

[Screwtape2]

I would actually argue that the Edge probably doesn't realize how many fans have access to this material already (or perhaps we overestimate our numbers ). Judging from other recent U2 decisions, Edge was probably thinking along these line: what would make this disc maximally interesting for a range of U2 fans? Now, whether is achieved this or not is up to debate. But I think bringing dollar signs into it just doesn't fit.

True. It just would make more sense to me to release completely new stuff. It doesn't have to be all new songs but unreleased demos and stuff like that. That way no one has this stuff. Simple solution.

 

[Screwtape2]

U2 has grown and moved out, with albums. But I think the argument "U2 doesn't care about hard core fans" isn't true. It is possible to expand the fandom while still keeping the core of your fan base happy.

Who has bought the Zoo TV, Popmart and (once it comes) Red rocks on DVD ? Who's buying these remasters ? And who enjoyed the comeback of old songs on the last two tours ? Casual fans ? I don't think so. Just as that box set Edge said they'd do once they retire.

Two questions:

I'd like to know how they are keeping the hard core fans happy?

If the casual fans aren't buying all this stuff than why aren't they aimed for hardcore fans?

 

[U2girl]

Um, by giving them clean, remastered versions of their entire catalogue (as McGuine$$$ said), with bonus rare songs ? By transferring their live videos from VHS to DVD, with bonus material ? By bringing out older songs live ?

Some of the new fans may be buying this, but the big market here is the long time die hard fan.

 

[bram]

Two questions:

I'd like to know how they are keeping the hard core fans happy?

If the casual fans aren't buying all this stuff than why aren't they aimed for hardcore fans?

I actually think that U2 underestimates their hardcore fans. Meaning this: U2 doesn't realize exactly how hardcore we are--that we really want cleaned up versions of Life on a Distant Planet, Street Mission, etc.

 

[Zoots]

This long time die hard fan cannot afford 60 bucks all at once on 3 remastered albums with bonus discs!

 

[bram]

Um, by giving them clean, remastered versions of their entire catalogue (as McGuine$$$ said), with bonus rare songs ? By transferring their live videos from VHS to DVD, with bonus material ? By bringing out older songs live ?

Some of the new fans may be buying this, but the big market here is the long time die hard fan.

And this brings up a good point. While we may be disappointed with some releases, aren't we glad that U2 are at least attempting to put stuff out rather than just shove everything into the vault? I'd rather have imperfect releases coming out regularly than have them wait until they retire. I realize that this is purely personal opinion.

 

[toscano]

Two things:

How much control do you honestly think U2 have over price?

Somewhere between 0 and 100%. Any number any of us comes up with is pure speculation at best.

Where do you get this double CD price of $13.99?

Amazon mostly, sometimes Best Buy.

I paid 11.99 for In your Honor, 13.99 for Snakes/Arrows live, 13.99 for the 2-CD Mothership.

Melon Collie is currently available for 13.99

HAARP is available for 13.99

Those are just my more recent multi-set purchases.

Best Buy now has the deluxe issues for $19.99, seems pretty good to me.

Not to me. Each to their own.

 

[U2girl]

Two things:

How much control do you honestly think U2 have over price?

Probably less than we think.

I didn't see the prices for the other remasters, but the JT double CD+DVD over here was 50 EUR. Yikes. (and I still wish they'd come up with some Phil Joanu directed show for the DVD. oh well, perhaps some Rattle and Hum extended edition...)

In the end it's up to each fan: does the bonus stuff/remaster sound/price cut it for you ?

 

[toscano]

And this brings up a good point. While we may be disappointed with some releases, aren't we glad that U2 are at least attempting to put stuff out rather than just shove everything into the vault? I'd rather have imperfect releases coming out regularly than have them wait until they retire. I realize that this is purely personal opinion.

Sure, and the single CD at 9.99 is a good deal, which is what the non-hardcore fan would buy. In my opinion there is no doubt the 2CD set is aimed at the hardcore fan, bear in mind some hardcore fans already have already shelled out for the albums (in multiple formats for those us who were around when they were on vinyl) so it does seem to be taking advantage somewhat to me.

 

[BVS]

Somewhere between 0 and 100%. Any number any of us comes up with is pure speculation at best.

Yeah, it's almost 0. That's why when you go to Best Buy and walk through the aisle of new releases there isn't much fluxuation of price.

 

[BVS]

In the end it's up to each fan: does the bonus stuff/remaster sound/price cut it for you ?

Exactly. To me the JT remaster was definately worth it. I loved the DVD, the remasters sound great, and many of the B-sides I still only had on cassette.

The new ones, I probably won't buy, if I do I won't get the deluxe issues.

I will for AB, and it depends how they do UF if I get the deluxe issue...

 

[toscano]

Yeah, it's almost 0.

Really ? they shared this with you ?