My thoughts on why How to Dismantle sucked

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2Hearts said:
The main point here is that Vertigo is not a gimmick b/c it lacks meaning. It's main theme is temptation: "Your soul, it can't be bought/ but your mind can wander". For Christians, if your soul belongs to God, then Satan cannot take it. However, Satan is very happy to tempt believers and try to make them useless to God. Some religious imagery is thrown into the Club Scene: "The girl with crimson nails has Jesus 'round her neck" (Cross necklace). Bono is a good boy :)wink:) and doesn't want to do the wrong thing, "It's everything I wish I didn't know" and turns back to God, "But You give me something I can feel". He does not give in to the temptation. The lines "All of this can be yours" recalls Satan's tempting of Jesus in the desert. (Out of curiosity, how many times does Bono say this? Christ faced 3 different temptations). Finally, the line "Your love is teaching me how to kneel" echoes the sentiment of Jesus saying "Whoever wants to be great must become a servant", and also the lyric from MW "If you want to kiss the sky, you better learn how to kneel".

So Vertigo is very much based on the concept of spirtual warfare. If do not believe in anything spiritual, then maybe you would think Vertigo has no meaning.

I am fully aware of this lyrical meaning in Vertigo. But musically it is fluff. Imagine listening to an instrumental version of Vertigo. The exact album version but with no Bono. That would be a bore. Why? Because the lyrics have no melody. There's hardly any musical movement(within the lyrics/singing) until the chorus. Therefore, the only melody you remember when the song is over is the hook, the chorus. Which keeps you going back for more, aka makes people who heard it on the radio buy the record. Hence, gimmick.
 
MrBrau1 said:


For me, it the worst squander of a guitar riff in the history of rock.
This perfect riff (recorded on an acoustic guitar BTW) sits second chair to stylized beats and trendy production. What a waste.


Totally Agree. :up: :up:

This song could've, should've been immense, instead it's a mess.
 
MrBrau1 said:


For me, it the worst squander of a guitar riff in the history of rock.
This perfect riff (recorded on an acoustic guitar BTW) sits second chair to stylized beats and trendy production. What a waste.

I think that analysis is rubbish. The riff DRIVES the song. Everything in the song revolves around the riff. It's just that the riff was used here and there instead of being the dominant force from beginning to end that the Vertigo riff is.
 
MrBrau1 said:

Whereas Vertigo is just a dumb rock song with a great beat, that gets buy on the energy in it, not the clothes it's wearing.

But that was the thing with Discotheque, it was the off-putting image that really was the gimmick. The song is a catchy rock song just like Vertigo. IMO, it was more brave for them to take a message, even if it made them look like asses, than to just say "here is our dumb rock song". Just a difference of opinion, I guess.

As an American in 1997, I never saw the huge bandwagon to be jumped on. Chemical Bros, Crystal Method, Prodigy, whatever else was seeing modest success was dwarfed into comparison with the post-grunge wankfest and the beginnings of the rap-metal shit-a-thon. I never saw it as the easy way, I saw it as the harder way. Of course, I never thought U2 had a good pulse of what the American rock public wants.

So, yes maybe U2 were taking what was huge and hip in Europe and trying to hit the next big wave, from my view I saw it as more brave than that. That's just my perspective. I don't totally disagree with what you are saying.
 
2Hearts said:
For the record I can't think of any U2 song I would call a gimmick (namkcuR's definition is a good one). I just wondered if anyone would agree with my 'claims' that Sweetest Thing, Zoo Station, etc. were gimmicks.

To make a few comments on your song analyses, you mention both intrinsic and extrinsic meanings. That is fine, but just be aware that w/o knowledge of why it was written, Sweetest Thing could sound blase. It's well written, but it doesn't say much that hundreds of other 'relationship' songs don't. That's ok with me, but people like zoomer probably don't think much of it.

Zoo Station has a TON of meaning when you take into account the band's new direction at the time. But it also has intrinsic meaning with a kind of 'carpe diem' theme, "Time is a train, makes the future the past/ leaves you standing at the station/ with your face pressed up against the glass" :applaud:


I found this very amusing. I notice you didn't try to explain it! I'll let you off the hook here b/c I find meaning in it too. Don't have time to explain though.

The main point here is that Vertigo is not a gimmick b/c it lacks meaning. It's main theme is temptation: "Your soul, it can't be bought/ but your mind can wander". For Christians, if your soul belongs to God, then Satan cannot take it. However, Satan is very happy to tempt believers and try to make them useless to God. Some religious imagery is thrown into the Club Scene: "The girl with crimson nails has Jesus 'round her neck" (Cross necklace). Bono is a good boy :)wink:) and doesn't want to do the wrong thing, "It's everything I wish I didn't know" and turns back to God, "But You give me something I can feel". He does not give in to the temptation. The lines "All of this can be yours" recalls Satan's tempting of Jesus in the desert. (Out of curiosity, how many times does Bono say this? Christ faced 3 different temptations). Finally, the line "Your love is teaching me how to kneel" echoes the sentiment of Jesus saying "Whoever wants to be great must become a servant", and also the lyric from MW "If you want to kiss the sky, you better learn how to kneel".

So Vertigo is very much based on the concept of spirtual warfare. If do not believe in anything spiritual, then maybe you would think Vertigo has no meaning.

Very well said, I was just about to write the deeper meaning of Vertigo, until I saw your post! Vertigo does have some good lyrics that hits home with me, what bothers me is that I wish they would have used Natve Son's instrumental with the lyric. But, the only song that I can think of that is the worst U2 gimmick is "elevation" those lyrics should be burned and never heard again!
 
U2DMfan said:


But that was the thing with Discotheque, it was the off-putting image that really was the gimmick. The song is a catchy rock song just like Vertigo. IMO, it was more brave for them to take a message, even if it made them look like asses, than to just say "here is our dumb rock song". Just a difference of opinion, I guess.

As an American in 1997, I never saw the huge bandwagon to be jumped on. Chemical Bros, Crystal Method, Prodigy, whatever else was seeing modest success was dwarfed into comparison with the post-grunge wankfest and the beginnings of the rap-metal shit-a-thon. I never saw it as the easy way, I saw it as the harder way. Of course, I never thought U2 had a good pulse of what the American rock public wants.

So, yes maybe U2 were taking what was huge and hip in Europe and trying to hit the next big wave, from my view I saw it as more brave than that. That's just my perspective. I don't totally disagree with what you are saying.

:applaud: :rockon:
 
Although I took up for Vertigo here, Discotheque is my favorite of the two. It's in my top 10. I have 1 HTDAAB song, Miracle Drug, ahead of it.

How would you like to listen to a instrumental version of "The First Time", namkcuR? How about The Wanderer? If you want songs that would be great instrumentals, U2 should not be your favorite. Other bands do a better job in this regard. A U2 song without a melody, well that's pretty ORIGINAL for the band, huh?


And what if you took Bono out of Bullet the Blue Sky? And Edge? And Adam? You'd have a boring 5 minute long drum solo. :lol:
 
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Again all this talk about U2 using "gimmicks" and "Marketing" as if it's something new. It's not! U2 have always been a Great Band as well as being brilliant marketers. IMO they have never marketed themselves in a more mainstream way than with "Rattle and Hum". See the movie, buy the book and watch clips from the New York premier on"Entertainment Tonight".

If Vertigo "worked" as a gimmick it did it's job as a lead off single. There's a reason why singles are released before an album-To "work the crowd"

And if "Vertigo" was a gimmick that worked, then maybe "Discotheque" was a gimmick that didn't work(though if I remember right "Pop" had a great opening week, so maybe it did work?). In any case if "Vertigo" was a gimmick, then so was "Discotheque". U2 as the village people?

anyway, U2 have always had their toes in different types of music. There was a thread the other day that highlighted the different styles they've used over the years. Maybe now they're in a "songwriting" phase. Me, I love a great, tight well structured song, so I have no problems with U2's current phase. If you don't like it, that's cool too. U2 have never stayed in one style long, so why think they're gonna continue along the path they're on without more detours along musical styles.? Maybe you'll like the next one.

But people gotta remember that just because you don't like an album doesn't mean it's crap!

:huh:
 
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I agree with the original post. HTDAAB is plain plastic, false, commercial, cheap, hit and miss, unoriginal, disposable, uninspired, tired, recycled, lame, boring, predictable and shameful as named as a U2 album :sad: :( .

If this album wouldn´t have been recorded by U2 it would have been reviewed without any regrets as one of the worst pieces of corporate forgettable crap :censored: and it couldn´t have sold even 1 million copies.

I really feel ashamed of the band for putting such poorly half worked and written iPod item :sad:. Is not as bad as ATYCLB (still the worst U2 album ever, IMO :down:) but given the long time between albums and the fact HTDAAB is basically an ATYCLB II album, to some extent is even more dissapointing :tsk:

HTDAAB should have never been released, really :(
 
ponkine said:

HTDAAB should have never been released, really :(

My least favourite album is "October"-Maybe that shouldn't have been released?

Maybe we should ask that everyones least favourite album be taken off the shelves. We can have an online petition for each of them too!

:tsk:
 
what a joke, even "premium members" slinging this B.S...

jaded...... pessimistic crap.
You should be ashamed.
Karma will repay you.

you have no honor.

If your thinking I'm addressing you, I AM.

Those are my thoughts on how you suck.
 
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ponkine said:
I agree with the original post. HTDAAB is plain plastic, false, commercial, cheap, hit and miss, unoriginal, disposable, uninspired, tired, recycled, lame, boring, predictable and shameful as named as a U2 album :sad: :( .

If this album wouldn´t have been recorded by U2 it would have been reviewed without any regrets as one of the worst pieces of corporate forgettable crap :censored: and it couldn´t have sold even 1 million copies.

I really feel ashamed of the band for putting such poorly half worked and written iPod item :sad:. Is not as bad as ATYCLB (still the worst U2 album ever, IMO :down:) but given the long time between albums and the fact HTDAAB is basically an ATYCLB II album, to some extent is even more dissapointing :tsk:

HTDAAB should have never been released, really :(



What a fucking awful post.
 
ponkine said:
HTDAAB is plain plastic, false, commercial, cheap, hit and miss, unoriginal, disposable, uninspired, tired, recycled, lame, boring, predictable and shameful

Surely it cannot be all of those things!!!!

My favorite: HTDAAB is false. When did albums become True/False questions?

Once again, I'll state my opinion. HTDAAB is U2's 3rd best album.
 
namkcuR said:


I am fully aware of this lyrical meaning in Vertigo. But musically it is fluff. Imagine listening to an instrumental version of Vertigo. The exact album version but with no Bono. That would be a bore. Why? Because the lyrics have no melody. There's hardly any musical movement(within the lyrics/singing) until the chorus. Therefore, the only melody you remember when the song is over is the hook, the chorus. Which keeps you going back for more, aka makes people who heard it on the radio buy the record. Hence, gimmick.

Vertigo=All about the bass :drool: :rockon:

(As well as a good chunk of "Atomic Bomb)

++++++++++++++

Rattle and Hum is the U2 album I've taken the longest to really like, that, for me, is hit and miss album.

Boy, no skips.

October, 1 song occasionally gets a skip.

War, no skips, yes, I am the only U2 fan in the world who likes "The Refugee." (yes, I was exaggerating)

Unforgettable Fire, 2 occasional skips.

Joshua Tree, 2 occasional skips

Rattle and Hum, hit and miss.

Achtung Baby, 1 occasional skip.

Zooropa, 2 occasional skips

Pop, 3 occasional skips.

ATYCLB, (took the 2nd longest for me to like, after R&H.) 2 occasional skips.

Atomic Bomb, 1 occasional skip.

(I'm not telling which songs, as that could cause a riot among some here)
 
2Hearts said:


Surely it cannot be all of those things!!!!

My favorite: HTDAAB is false. When did albums become True/False questions?

Once again, I'll state my opinion. HTDAAB is U2's 3rd best album.

Hehe, do other bands message boards go through this?

True or false, multiple choice, hehe, I'm more of the essay answer when it comes to U2.

"Atomic Bomb" has some of the more "true" U2 songs, in a long time.

Sometimes, about Bono's father.

A Man & a Woman, didn't Bono say in some interview it's about him and Ali?

I guess if it's the lack of subtlety with Bono, well, what's wrong if he wants to be more personal without being subtle?

Bono's tackled questions and sang about subjects some lyricists won't touch with a 20 foot pole, I think it's okay if he wants to sing about himself every once in a while without being ironic, putting himself in someone else's place.
 
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:madspit: :mad: :| :madspit: your all out to lunch, i dont think u2 have written a crap song ever, especially compared to most other bands out there, all taste varibles aside, what other band of thier stature has come along over last 10 years that even gets close to their greatness, bands like coldplay are excellent as well but there are very few bands now adays that can match the meaninfulness of a u2 song even down to the least of their always thought out tunes
 
The Bomb is U2's third best album and my personal favorite album of U2's catalogue. I guess that makes me a fan of false music.
 
The Bomb and ATYCLB are not bad albums, they're excellent. Very high quality. It's just that to me and many others they are over there while U2's other 9 albums are over here. It's not so much a comment on their quality, just how they feel. I honestly - not just when talking about them here, not just when talking about them with friends outside of here (where I have to build some sort of defence against "U2 are f*cked now") - but in my own head, honestly can't even begin to compare those two against War or The Joshua Tree or Achtung Baby or Zooropa. There's one pile of comparable U2 CD's sitting on the left hand side of me, Boy through to Pop, and on the right hand side of me there's ATYCLB and HTDAAB. The only things they happen to have in common for me is the band name on the front, the names of the individuals who made them, and the fact that every now and then there's a sound or feeling that reminds me of the other band that made those other 9 records, but it's usually a pretty fleeting moment and generally a pretty superficial version of what it is it makes me remember. I'm sure there are many that are very happy with what U2 have become. I'm sure that's all genuine. I'm sure there are plenty of people who see no change and are sure without a doubt that the songs on these last two albums are as good and as deep and as creative and exciting as those on the other 9 albums. For me though, I wouldn't waste my time making an argument for Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own against Running To Stand Still, I honestly couldn't do it. Sometimes may or may not be a good song in one sense, on a technical level, but it's not, to me, even in the same category or genre as Running To Stand Still. The last two albums aren't bad, they're just not the same thing as the other nine. U2 are now in the business of making tight, tidy, high quality, safe, shiny pop albums. I will compare those two (and any others in the future along those lines - which sadly is what I bet we get) only with each other and say they are both outstanding in achieving their goal. But versus other U2 albums? Whats generally thought of as the worst of the other nine? October? It's not a great album for sure, but it's got more feeling and spirit in one track then these last two albums combined. What's generally thought of as the worst song off Achtung Baby? Tryin' To Throw Your Arms? So Cruel? Ultraviolet? What's regarded as the best off the Bomb? Miracle Drug? Original of the Species? An album of songs at the level of quality of So Cruel, or an album of songs at the level of Original of the Species. Holy shit, I know what I would choose in a heartbeat. I don't listen to the type of music that Elevation is. Or Crumbs. Or Original of the Species. Or All Because of You. Whether it's by U2 or anyone else. I find it dull and boring and uninspiring, even when it's technically outstanding songwriting, I give it respect for that, but it does nothing for me and if it weren't for the fact that it was U2, I would never have bought HTDAAB or ATYCLB. I would have downloaded Love & Peace and In A Little While, and Beautiful Day reminds me of a Canadian gymnast I was having a fling with during the Sydney Olympics, so I probably would have downloaded that (good times), but the rest....... comparing it to Stay? To Where The Streets Have No Name? To One? To Promenade? To Out of Control? Yeah right. That's only two steps away from comparing Creed to U2 with any seriousness.

Remember how everyone raved over ATYCLB, then HTDAAB was released and suddenly ATYCLB goes pummeling down everyones charts? Here's my prediction... If U2 indeed still have it in them (I believe they do) and still have the balls, and go and release another album of great, amazing music along the lines of their previous nine, there will be a collective sigh of relief from EVERYONE in here and a general feeling of "Ooooooh I forgot about how good they could do this", and HTDAAB will slide, slide, slide down those charts as well. I sincerely hope they prove me right by releasing such an album, rather then another one of these...

In summary: The Bomb doesn't suck. It's just not fair to compare an album in the category of The Bomb & ATYCLB to an album that falls into the category of Boy, October, War, The Unforgettable Fire, The Joshua Tree, Rattle & Hum, Achtung Baby, Zooropa & Pop.
 
Earnie Shavers said:

Remember how everyone raved over ATYCLB, then HTDAAB was released and suddenly ATYCLB goes pummeling down everyones charts? Here's my prediction... If U2 indeed still have it in them (I believe they do) and still have the balls, and go and release another album of great, amazing music along the lines of their previous nine, there will be a collective sigh of relief from EVERYONE in here and a general feeling of "Ooooooh I forgot about how good they could do this", and HTDAAB will slide, slide, slide down those charts as well. I sincerely hope they prove me right by releasing such an album, rather then another one of these...


Could you be any more patronising? :rolleyes:
 
roy said:

Could you be any more patronising? :rolleyes:

It's not being patronising (or meant to come across that way), it's just a guess, a prediction. That's what happened with ATYCLB right? The rave in here when it was released was that it was the '3rd masterpiece' and that it was somewhere behind Achtung Baby and The Joshua Tree, but above everything else. Then after some time, but most particularly after the release of HTDAAB, I'd say the average positioning of that album is way, way, way lower. I will bet that the same happens in one way or another with the next release in regards to HTDAAB. I don't think that's patronising to suggest that that's my guess.
 
Doppelgang said:
:madspit: :mad: :| :madspit: your all out to lunch, i dont think u2 have written a crap song ever, especially compared to most other bands out there,


Let me help you.

1) Walk over to your CD collection and pick up ATYCLB
2) Now walk over to your stereo and put the disc in But DONT PUSH PLAY
3) Now sit down and relax.... Think about something nice for a few minutes.
4) Now you are ready to begin so choose song three and push play
5) Can it be true you ask !!, and yes it is true. What you are listening to is indeed a crap song.
6) When the song is over then feel free to take a few more minutes to relax.
7) Take the CD out of the stereo and put it wayyyy back in your collection.
8) Now hurry over to your computer and rewrite the part about U2 not making crap songs.

:wink:

And you are welcome.
 
Earnie Shavers said:
Remember how everyone raved over ATYCLB, then HTDAAB was released and suddenly ATYCLB goes pummeling down everyones charts? Here's my prediction... If U2 indeed still have it in them (I believe they do) and still have the balls, and go and release another album of great, amazing music along the lines of their previous nine, there will be a collective sigh of relief from EVERYONE in here and a general feeling of "Ooooooh I forgot about how good they could do this", and HTDAAB will slide, slide, slide down those charts as well. I sincerely hope they prove me right by releasing such an album, rather then another one of these...

Gotta agree w/ Roy on this. :down:

I know what I like. And I'm sorry you're so offended by people who find light in songs off the last 2 records. Some of us here are actually smart enough to have our own opinions. But thanks for telling us what we'll think.
 
If this thread was titled "How do you think HTDAAB will be received in 5 years?" my comments don't sound patronising. That's all I'm saying. I can see how the last part of them can come across that way, and I apologise. I'm not trying to tell people what to think, just how I think HTDAAB long term 'vibe' will be once the dust settles.
 
Earnie Shavers said:
.

In summary: The Bomb doesn't suck. It's just not fair to compare an album in the category of The Bomb & ATYCLB to an album that falls into the category of Boy, October, War, The Unforgettable Fire, The Joshua Tree, Rattle & Hum, Achtung Baby, Zooropa & Pop.

Why? Because you don't like them?
 
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I don't hate them, I don't think they suck. I do like them, just in a very, very different way to the others. That's what I'm trying to describe above, 9 albums in one pile, 2 albums in the other. They're just that different TO ME.
 
Earnie is right. In fact I was just thinking the same thing.

ATYCLB was first hailed as the third masterpiece, now it's fallen lower on most peoples' rankings and HTDAAB is hailed as the third masterpiece. I think the same thing will happen when the next album is released, regardless of whether or not it's like the first nine records or the last two records. That's just the natural way of things - people tend to overrate the most recent record. It doesn't matter who the artist(s) is, what the record is, and it is certainly not a knock on anyone here. It is just the nature of things.
 
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