My thoughts on the WTC massacre.

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No one can prove that the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were prepared to die for their country. However, the fact that their government STILL didn't surrender after the first city was demolished shows that at least the government was prepared to offer up that city as a sacrifice. Only when we hit the second time did they realize that they had to end the war or risk losing many more civilians.

And I see that you didn't disagree with my first points, so that's a step in the right direction.

For the record, I do not condone violence in any way. I shudder to think of the bloodshed that is pending for our world. I am simply trying to explain that what happened in Japan was a calculated move to save both Japanese and American lives in the long run. I do not know the exact statistics, but they calculated that if the war continued, both sides would have lost more people than Japan lost in the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 
I guess what I'm saying is that nothing, in my opinion, is worth such a great amount of bloodshed, especially when it involves innocent people.

I'm really not much different than most of you. We're all suffering, and I think that's pretty evident. The country's going through a terrible ordeal, and I, for one, would help if I could. I grieve for those who are lost in the rubble. I've shed my tears for the dead.

I think the most important thing for us, as a nation, to do is to unite and seek justice. Not revenge, but justice. We must do justice to those who are missing and to the families of the dead. We need justice for the perpetrators of this massacre. The last thing we need, though, is a war.

I'm against killing of any kind (unless it's for food). I don't want those responsible to die. I want them to live. I want them to suffer. I'm very pro-life (and not just in the abortion sense), and I believe people should pay for their crimes.

Ok, I'm rambling now, it seems, so I guess I'll shut up.
 
Originally posted by Not George Lucas:
Here's something I don't understand: Throughout this thread I've been attacked on a personal level. I can understand you're pissed off, but, although my views may differ, and my ways of coping may not be the same as yours, I, too, am suffering because of this tragedy. What I'm trying to say is if you have a problem with what I have to say, address my words, not my character. Despite what you may believe, I am neither an arrogant person, nor an elitist snob. (I'm also not callow.) I'm simply a person with an opinion and a strong anti-violence position. One thing I love about this country is that it allows people like myself to coexist with others who have different views. You cannot fault me for seeing things differently.

Not George Lucas:

Ever since you have been a member of this forum, I have noticed that you debate in a manner that is elitist, and you come across as an elitist snob. Maybe there is a reason people are attacking you in such a way. Some people may find you to be funny; I don't.

I think it is very nice of you to think we should have allowed Japan's imperial desires to fester and maybe just challenged them to a game of tiddlywinks. They were not going to stop. China was poor and vulnerable at the time and under sporadic Japanese conquest; Japan had conquered the Philipines, and who knows what would have happened to Australia? In order to STOP imperialism, we had to act militarily.

And don't get me started on the European theater.

~U2Alabama
 
First, I want to say this:

I am neither elitist nor a snob. Yes, I'm bitter, cynical, and sarcastic, but I'm also honest, and I try to get to the point as fast as I can. Calling me an elitist snob is immature, insulting, and offensive. Since the issue at hand is not my character but the events that happened a couple days ago, I will no longer be addressing personal insults in this thread. Neither should you. Stick to the topic.

That said, I'd like to get to the point. Unlike several other people, I have great respect for all life. All life. I don't believe there is such a thing as a just war. I don't believe the killing of any innocent person is ever justified. You may disagree with me. That's fine. Disagree all you want.

[This message has been edited by Not George Lucas (edited 09-13-2001).]
 
It's interesting that so many of you can maintain a "rational" perspective on terrorists, their supporters and their motives. An attack on New York City results in the murders of 5,000 people and your first thoughts and comments are criticisms of the U.S..
I'm reminded of relativists who showed sympathy for Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber. "Sure, their methods were a TAD extreme but by golly, you can really see where Tim and Ted were coming from."
Well I can't. I wonder if some of you would be so sanguine if we had woken Tuesday morning to the news that the U.S. had bombed Iraqi cities resulting in the deaths of 5,000 Iraqi innocents. Would you calmly nod your heads and say, "The loss of life is horrible of course and heartfelt condolences to the bereaved but you could really see this coming and I can really see where the U.S. military was coming from on this. And frankly, some perspective here--what are 5,000 Iraqi dead in the face of the worlds suffering?"
I really, REALLY doubt it.
Implicit in this attitude is an inadvertant and probably unacknowledged form of nationalism and racism. Americans should be held to a higher standard because we're AMERICANS. Of course Palestinians celebrated and paraded through the streets after hearing the news. They're PALESTINIANS for Gods sake. It can't be held against them. But we're North Americans by God, and we're above all that.

Blech.
MP
 
Originally posted by Not George Lucas:
[
Ok, I'm rambling now, it seems, so I guess I'll shut up.[/B]

That is the ONLY thing you have said here that makes any sense!

Yes. please SHUT the FUCK UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I had planned to bow out of this debate, but Matthew Page has brought up a very good point.

Not George Lucas:

What was your understanding/interpretation of the Oklahoma City bombing? Did you agree with all of the rednecks and militia nuts who said, "Those Feds had it coming to 'em for what they done at Ruby Ridge and Waco!"
Well, what about the innocent victims who were at the Federal Building? "They was all a bunch of blacks and Jews and welfare recipients hanging out with the Feds!"

I will never understand such attacks. They are wrong. The perpetrators should be dealt with severely.

~U2Alabama
 
U2bama that brings up a good point. When I entered the military, I was inprocessed in the Murrah building. While in Saudi, I stayed in Khobar Towers (by the main entrance) for 90 days. I have been in 2 buildings that have blown up, luckily I was not in them at the time. When I tell people this, they usuall are alarmed and are like "get the f*** out of my house..."
 
Stop Fighting
frown.gif
.. PLEASE?!?
that's all ....
 
Originally posted by Not George Lucas:

War or not, the United States is still responsible for the slaughter of innocent people. Unless you can honestly say that each and every victim was guilty of crimes against this country, there is no justification. We look at them as a group. We think of them as a bunch of Japanese people who were enemies of the United States. We do not think of them as individuals. We don't even consider it possible that any of them might have considered the actions of the Japanese government wrong. We're somehow under the impression that each individual was anti-America and, thus, deserved to die.

Stars-
Unfortunately, we were at war with the country- not just the military might of Japan.

NGL-
Put it into perspective. If Japan had the bomb and they decided to blow up, say, Branson Missouri or Salt Lake City, would it have been justified simplt because we were in a war? No. Of course not.

Stars-
Tough as it sounds, I disagree here, too. When we declared war on Japan, we declared as a nation. We knew the potential consequences.

NGL-
Another point I'd like to make is that everyone involved in the war at the time was involved voluntarily. As far as I know, the Japanese hadn't instituted a draft system, so all their soldiers knew what they were getting into.

Stars-
I believe the Japanese had a system of compulsory military service, which would have made the draft unneccessary

NGL-
The [Japanese]civilians, on the other hand, did not want to die, nor were they aware of the possibility of being bombed.

Stars-
not aware of that possibility during wartime...please!

NGL-
I expect an apology.

Stars-
Ain't gonna happen.

Your post was irresponsible, ill-timed, and contained way too much ridiculous revisionist history dribble. Your words, I believe, were intended to inflame the people of this forum. My contempt for you cannot be measured. You get nothing.

NGL-
What I'm trying to say is if you have a problem with what I have to say, address my words, not my character.

Stars-
Ones character is defined by their actions and words!


------------------
Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.
 
I thought Not George Lucas brought up some strong points. Unfortunately not everybody wants to see them yet. Ill-timing? maybe...
 
Originally posted by z edge:
I have been in 2 buildings that have blown up, luckily I was not in them at the time. When I tell people this, they usuall are alarmed and are like "get the f*** out of my house..."

LOL! Sorry, but I find that amusing...
smile.gif
It's the only part of this thread that has made me crack a smile.

Don't you live in Norman, z edge? Get the f*** out of my town!!!! Just kidding!
biggrin.gif



Whoops. Had to edit this to clarify...I find what people say to z edge amusing, not the fact that he has been in two buildings that have blown up.

[This message has been edited by HeartlandGirl (edited 09-14-2001).]
 
The anger is swelling in you. Calm down.

First of all, someone asked my views of the Oklahoma City Bombing. Well, my view is the same as the Twin Tower Massacre. It's a horrible thing that never should have happened.

I have the increasing impression that most of you think I'm trying to justify what happened. I assure you I'm not. There is no justification. Yes, I can kind of see where they were coming from, and yes, I can appreciate it, but it is still unjustified. Most people I've encountered don't want to understand. They don't want to see the motives behind the actions. They don'
t want to recognize the fact that the people who do terrible things are, in fact, human. This is a fact that so many choose to be blind to, if only to justify their strong feelings.

Such strong feelings in response to such a tragedy are already justified, but you do need to realize that these people, no matter how horrible they are, are humans with motives.

The general impression I'm getting from the majority of you is that those responsible for the massacre are inhuman creatures who just wanted to kill for the sake of killing. I assure you that is not the case. Whether you like it or not, they did have motives. They had reasons for doing what they did. While the reasons do no not justify the actions, they are still there.

I acknowledge that many things I've said in this thread are my own beliefs and opinions, and I hope you can respect that. I'm not trying to excuse these people. I'm trying to understand.

I admit that I have a bit of a rough exterior and my style of debating is, well, unique. It's who I am. Overanalyzation is my major coping mechanism. I'm not asking you to like it. I'm asking you to accept it.

Thank you and good night.
 
Originally posted by HeartlandGirl:
LOL! Sorry, but I find that amusing...
smile.gif
It's the only part of this thread that has made me crack a smile.

Don't you live in Norman, z edge? Get the f*** out of my town!!!! Just kidding!
biggrin.gif



Whoops. Had to edit this to clarify...I find what people say to z edge amusing, not the fact that he has been in two buildings that have blown up.

[This message has been edited by HeartlandGirl (edited 09-14-2001).]

HG,
Yeah I live in norman! I find it amusing too and you didn't have to really clarify it because I knew what you meant. We should meet sometime
smile.gif
 
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