LP13: Oh well Oh Well Oh Well Oh Well....Tell Me More!

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That's all well and good (and a fine defense of that crap song, maybe the best I've seen) but a song is not an article in a newspaper, an entry on a blog, it's not a poem, it's not a short story. A song is a musical. It's cleverness GREATNESS is relative to how it functions as a piece of music, both words and music. If it doesn't fit together it doesn't matter.

I think that is a fine argument, except that. SUC can be a wonderfully clever song in the context described, and potentially is (that explanation went over ALL of our heads, and I haven't listened in that context yet). And it could be a perfectly textured, complex lyric in that context as well. None of that changes the fact the song fell flat, and is musically limited, boring, unadventurous etc. And lyrically, regardless of the new context - art is only as great as the interpretations people ascribe to it. Great is subjective, but greatness in music is often measured closely with success, either commercial or critical. And in that context, this song is far from great. But it may just be clever.
 
Bono was better off singing random nonsense phonetics, his Bonogolese, until something just...arrived. I sense he doesn't do much of that any more and he gets a little too eager to shoehorn 'Freedom Is The Scent..." in two different songs because, well, he's a little too high on his own cleverness just to let the song, the music, the feel, the mood dictate what the words should be saying. Doesn't even matter what its saying really, specifically, as long as it's sincere and you can feel that it's sincere. I just resent music that feels like someone came up with a T-shirt slogan for the title and went from there. So much of U2 since Beautiful Day has been just this.

Lastly, on that song specifically, I am sick. to. death. of the self-effacing stuff, the owning up to being a 'hypocritical rock star'. We get it. Tell us something from your soul and try to sing it like you stumbled into it, not like it was a phrase you randomly jotted down in a notebook on an airplane and then shoved it somewhere inside one of your newest songs where it seemed to be least awkward.

Truthfully, I am not much of a lyrical critic. Lyrics do matter and they matter to me, but this isn't storytelling. This is music, rock music in particular. There is a harmony between music and lyrics that must exist. Music is an auditory medium like film is a visual medium. The script matters...but it's only one component of the overall piece. And not even the most important if we care about art as much as or more than being a popcorn thriller. Pop music listeners often pay far too much mind to lyrics. Lyrics should never wreck a song if the song is worthy in the first place. Think about how many times any of us have sung along to La-La-La or Oh-Oh-Oh. If you're reading this, I know you're 100% guilty. It's music folks. I Am The Walrus basically means nothing and so what? It's perfection.

So really I don't begrudge anything written in say, Miami because it all fits perfectly. I don't analyze anything in Elvis Presley and America. I don't get too carried away looking at any of those early lyrics and scrutinizing how banal some were. It was all so very sincere, I appreciated it because of that. U2 were the greatest band at being magically accidental, at not truly knowing what they were doing. When they were at their best, they weren't clever at all, they weren't even good - as Bono likes to say - they were just great. I don't think U2 can be great with this method of operations from Bono and his lyric writing. He's not that kind of writer and he never was. He's not a cerebral lyricist IMO. He's always been emotional and it always worked until he decided he wasn't that guy anymore. No song is more indicative of the worst of all of this than Stand Up Comedy. But I'm glad at least you like it.

Jesus. Preach.

Don't you think at least NLOTH itself and most of Moment of Surrender feel pretty natural, though? Of course, the fact that he has it in him at times (if you agree he does) still only proves it's a mentality thing and not just a matter of aging. And so Bono stands unpardoned.

Thoughts on Invisible and OL re:your sense of Bono sloganeering?
 
That's all well and good (and a fine defense of that crap song, maybe the best I've seen) but a song is not an article in a newspaper, an entry on a blog, it's not a poem, it's not a short story. A song is a musical. It's cleverness is relative to how it functions as a piece of music, both words and music. If it doesn't fit together it doesn't matter. I'm not accusing Stand Up Comedy of not fitting together, I'm illustrating how this interpretation, accurate or not, doesn't have to mean anything at all.

The song is sluggish. Musically, it sounds like U2 performing a cover version of an obscure Aerosmith song from 1978 nobody has ever heard. That's fine for some bands but nothing at all about what made U2 magical to begin with.

Lyrically, we can say what we want about what it's supposed to mean but in the end it's trite and full of hamfisted sloganeering. So much of 21st Century Bono suffers from this, like classic pop and country songwriting. Working from the bumper-sticker slogan backwards...and be damned if it's a little clumsy off the tongue, it's a clever line! No. That's not what makes for great music.

Bono was better off singing random nonsense phonetics, his Bonogolese, until something just...arrived. I sense he doesn't do much of that any more and he gets a little too eager to shoehorn 'Freedom Is The Scent..." in two different songs because, well, he's a little too high on his own cleverness just to let the song, the music, the feel, the mood dictate what the words should be saying. Doesn't even matter what its saying really, specifically, as long as it's sincere and you can feel that it's sincere. I just resent music that feels like someone came up with a T-shirt slogan for the title and went from there. So much of U2 since Beautiful Day has been just this.

Lastly, on that song specifically, I am sick. to. death. of the self-effacing stuff, the owning up to being a 'hypocritical rock star'. We get it. Tell us something from your soul and try to sing it like you stumbled into it, not like it was a phrase you randomly jotted down in a notebook on an airplane and then shoved it somewhere inside one of your newest songs where it seemed to be least awkward.

Truthfully, I am not much of a lyrical critic. Lyrics do matter and they matter to me, but this isn't storytelling. This is music, rock music in particular. There is a harmony between music and lyrics that must exist. Music is an auditory medium like film is a visual medium. The script matters...but it's only one component of the overall piece. And not even the most important if we care about art as much as or more than being a popcorn thriller. Pop music listeners often pay far too much mind to lyrics. Lyrics should never wreck a song if the song is worthy in the first place. Think about how many times any of us have sung along to La-La-La or Oh-Oh-Oh. If you're reading this, I know you're 100% guilty. It's music folks. I Am The Walrus basically means nothing and so what? It's perfection.

So really I don't begrudge anything written in say, Miami because it all fits perfectly. I don't analyze anything in Elvis Presley and America. I don't get too carried away looking at any of those early lyrics and scrutinizing how banal some were. It was all so very sincere, I appreciated it because of that. U2 were the greatest band at being magically accidental, at not truly knowing what they were doing. When they were at their best, they weren't clever at all, they weren't even good - as Bono likes to say - they were just great. I don't think U2 can be great with this method of operations from Bono and his lyric writing. He's not that kind of writer and he never was. He's not a cerebral lyricist IMO. He's always been emotional and it always worked until he decided he wasn't that guy anymore. No song is more indicative of the worst of all of this than Stand Up Comedy. But I'm glad at least you like it.

I get what you're saying. It's definitely not cut out of the same cloth as "Elvis Presley and America".

I can get on board with the significance of putting emotion into the delivery to the point that the emotion is driving the song more than the specific words. At the same time though, U2 would mean much less to me without Bono the thinker. The lyrics to "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For" didn't just come out of nowhere...Bono had to take some time, sit down, think about it, and write them out. Sometimes I feel more in tune with Feeling-Bono, but sometimes I long for more from Thinking-Bono. The funny thing is that in a way I think "Stand Up Comedy" is his way of claiming his right to be either, or both.
 
That's all well and good (and a fine defense of that crap song, maybe the best I've seen) but a song is not an article in a newspaper, an entry on a blog, it's not a poem, it's not a short story. A song is a musical. It's cleverness is relative to how it functions as a piece of music, both words and music. If it doesn't fit together it doesn't matter. I'm not accusing Stand Up Comedy of not fitting together, I'm illustrating how this interpretation, accurate or not, doesn't have to mean anything at all.

The song is sluggish. Musically, it sounds like U2 performing a cover version of an obscure Aerosmith song from 1978 nobody has ever heard. That's fine for some bands but nothing at all about what made U2 magical to begin with.

Lyrically, we can say what we want about what it's supposed to mean but in the end it's trite and full of hamfisted sloganeering. So much of 21st Century Bono suffers from this, like classic pop and country songwriting. Working from the bumper-sticker slogan backwards...and be damned if it's a little clumsy off the tongue, it's a clever line! No. That's not what makes for great music.

Bono was better off singing random nonsense phonetics, his Bonogolese, until something just...arrived. I sense he doesn't do much of that any more and he gets a little too eager to shoehorn 'Freedom Is The Scent..." in two different songs because, well, he's a little too high on his own cleverness just to let the song, the music, the feel, the mood dictate what the words should be saying. Doesn't even matter what its saying really, specifically, as long as it's sincere and you can feel that it's sincere. I just resent music that feels like someone came up with a T-shirt slogan for the title and went from there. So much of U2 since Beautiful Day has been just this.

Lastly, on that song specifically, I am sick. to. death. of the self-effacing stuff, the owning up to being a 'hypocritical rock star'. We get it. Tell us something from your soul and try to sing it like you stumbled into it, not like it was a phrase you randomly jotted down in a notebook on an airplane and then shoved it somewhere inside one of your newest songs where it seemed to be least awkward.

Truthfully, I am not much of a lyrical critic. Lyrics do matter and they matter to me, but this isn't storytelling. This is music, rock music in particular. There is a harmony between music and lyrics that must exist. Music is an auditory medium like film is a visual medium. The script matters...but it's only one component of the overall piece. And not even the most important if we care about art as much as or more than being a popcorn thriller. Pop music listeners often pay far too much mind to lyrics. Lyrics should never wreck a song if the song is worthy in the first place. Think about how many times any of us have sung along to La-La-La or Oh-Oh-Oh. If you're reading this, I know you're 100% guilty. It's music folks. I Am The Walrus basically means nothing and so what? It's perfection.

So really I don't begrudge anything written in say, Miami because it all fits perfectly. I don't analyze anything in Elvis Presley and America. I don't get too carried away looking at any of those early lyrics and scrutinizing how banal some were. It was all so very sincere, I appreciated it because of that. U2 were the greatest band at being magically accidental, at not truly knowing what they were doing. When they were at their best, they weren't clever at all, they weren't even good - as Bono likes to say - they were just great. I don't think U2 can be great with this method of operations from Bono and his lyric writing. He's not that kind of writer and he never was. He's not a cerebral lyricist IMO. He's always been emotional and it always worked until he decided he wasn't that guy anymore. No song is more indicative of the worst of all of this than Stand Up Comedy. But I'm glad at least you like it.


256621-funny-gifs-citizen-kane-clapping.gif


Hell yes, brother.

Digitize's unpopular opinion du jour: I Am the Walrus is overrated garbage.

carla.gif
 
I think you're oversimplifying/missing the message of the song a bit.



After doing some reading of a Christian theology book last night that kind of put U2 in a negative light for more or less being too soft in their beliefs/professions of Christian faith, I kind of gained a newfound appreciation for the song (and kind of remembered that I had loved the song back when it came out because I had sort of seen it through the lens of this issue to begin with, but had forgotten about it)...to me, the song is about a reconciliation between new agey, emergent, liberal believers (and maybe even atheists and agnostics) and fundamentalist Christians. Bono is kind of poking fun at himself ("Josephine, be careful of small men with big ideas") and at the same time defending himself and pointing out where he thinks fundamentalists err...they make God into this small person that they think depends on them ("stop helping God across the road like a little old lady")



I think it's actually a rather brilliant answer to common criticisms of U2 from the world of Chrisitianity...combine this with the fact that the title has double meanings ("stand up comedy" in the typical sense of the phrase as well as "standing up" for your beliefs and yet being reconciled as in a story that's a comedy, as opposed to a tragedy) and that I feel like I can imagine some of the lyrics actually being parts of real jokes and punchlines ("stop helping God across the road..." is a good one)...I kind of find myself thinking, wow...this is actually a very clever song.



I'm sure many who are less inclined to religious or spiritual discussions will probably dismiss my thoughts...but seriously, if you get a chance, give "Stand Up Comedy" another listen with an open mind!




This is a really good post.

I think the post-Pop lyrics get a bum rap in here, and as you've laid out quite coherently in arguably their most hated recent song, they are much more than empty sloganeering and much more complex than they initially seem. I've said it before and I'll say it again -- yes, TUF-era lyrics might sound pretty and might have an esoteric sheen, but they actually aren't saying much of anything. That's fine -- lyrics mean as much or as little as you want them to. But for all the crap modern Bono gets about "soul/feel/kneel" he does the same thing with "fire/dust/rain" on JT. I think the more literal grounding of the 00's belie a more complex, sophisticated worldview than the 20-something trying so hard to sound so important.

Any era has lyric hits, misses, home runs, and giant turds. I just think that many of us think the lyrics of the past were more meaningful because we were younger then. Not always, but often.


Sent from
 
That's all well and good (and a fine defense of that crap song, maybe the best I've seen) but a song is not an article in a newspaper, an entry on a blog, it's not a poem, it's not a short story. A song is a musical. It's cleverness is relative to how it functions as a piece of music, both words and music. If it doesn't fit together it doesn't matter. I'm not accusing Stand Up Comedy of not fitting together, I'm illustrating how this interpretation, accurate or not, doesn't have to mean anything at all.

The song is sluggish. Musically, it sounds like U2 performing a cover version of an obscure Aerosmith song from 1978 nobody has ever heard. That's fine for some bands but nothing at all about what made U2 magical to begin with.

Lyrically, we can say what we want about what it's supposed to mean but in the end it's trite and full of hamfisted sloganeering. So much of 21st Century Bono suffers from this, like classic pop and country songwriting. Working from the bumper-sticker slogan backwards...and be damned if it's a little clumsy off the tongue, it's a clever line! No. That's not what makes for great music.

Bono was better off singing random nonsense phonetics, his Bonogolese, until something just...arrived. I sense he doesn't do much of that any more and he gets a little too eager to shoehorn 'Freedom Is The Scent..." in two different songs because, well, he's a little too high on his own cleverness just to let the song, the music, the feel, the mood dictate what the words should be saying. Doesn't even matter what its saying really, specifically, as long as it's sincere and you can feel that it's sincere. I just resent music that feels like someone came up with a T-shirt slogan for the title and went from there. So much of U2 since Beautiful Day has been just this.

Lastly, on that song specifically, I am sick. to. death. of the self-effacing stuff, the owning up to being a 'hypocritical rock star'. We get it. Tell us something from your soul and try to sing it like you stumbled into it, not like it was a phrase you randomly jotted down in a notebook on an airplane and then shoved it somewhere inside one of your newest songs where it seemed to be least awkward.

Truthfully, I am not much of a lyrical critic. Lyrics do matter and they matter to me, but this isn't storytelling. This is music, rock music in particular. There is a harmony between music and lyrics that must exist. Music is an auditory medium like film is a visual medium. The script matters...but it's only one component of the overall piece. And not even the most important if we care about art as much as or more than being a popcorn thriller. Pop music listeners often pay far too much mind to lyrics. Lyrics should never wreck a song if the song is worthy in the first place. Think about how many times any of us have sung along to La-La-La or Oh-Oh-Oh. If you're reading this, I know you're 100% guilty. It's music folks. I Am The Walrus basically means nothing and so what? It's perfection.

So really I don't begrudge anything written in say, Miami because it all fits perfectly. I don't analyze anything in Elvis Presley and America. I don't get too carried away looking at any of those early lyrics and scrutinizing how banal some were. It was all so very sincere, I appreciated it because of that. U2 were the greatest band at being magically accidental, at not truly knowing what they were doing. When they were at their best, they weren't clever at all, they weren't even good - as Bono likes to say - they were just great. I don't think U2 can be great with this method of operations from Bono and his lyric writing. He's not that kind of writer and he never was. He's not a cerebral lyricist IMO. He's always been emotional and it always worked until he decided he wasn't that guy anymore. No song is more indicative of the worst of all of this than Stand Up Comedy. But I'm glad at least you like it.

My God. Bless you. I was just thinking about writing something similar. I was prompted to write after I listened to One Tree Hill. The emotion of that song. But not just that song. I do think Bono has great lyrical moments. But it isn't the lyric that makes the song. Like you so rightly said, it the interplay of the vocals and the music. When they flow and bono lets out some true emotion and ache in his delivery, magic happens.

I think about songs like Heartland, running to stand still, please, kite, red hill mining town, unforgettable fire, bad, acrobat, ultraviolet, October, AIWIY, stay, so cruel, love is blindness, the list goes on and on. There is a "something" about songs like these that just has been missing in so much of the recent work.

The songs seem much more lyrically/vocally stilted. I said this in a post a couple weeks ago. I was really excited about Invisible, and I listened to it and it was so flat and plain and forced. I was disappointed, bordering on angry. It's better than some of the clunkers on the last 3 albums, but nothing special. That something was definitely missing.

My deep hope is that somewhere Bono lets himself go again. I hope venturing to a darker place. No more beautiful days please, and god help us if it's summer nights. I know it's most likely not going to happen. But I keep my hope for it.

I just want say that this is one of the best things I've ever read on these boards. And u really summed up the frustration I've felt with so many songs over the last 13 years.
 
I think the critiques of the lyrics to 'Invisible' are somehwat superficial, and based on very little other than either an unrealistic expectation of 'One' level greatness, or being somewhat resistant to U2 trying to find greatness in new pastures. Invisible for mine is Bono's best work at integrating a lyric and an emotion into the music for 20 years. (I would say MOS, but I think the dynamic range of emotions is limited, it aches from start to finish, and pulls it off to about 80% effect). The chorus strips back the line-o-rama lyrical style to what is really important to convey the message, and he does unleash at times "your face like snow" and the way he hits the line "I am here" preceding the solo are perfect.
 
I think the critiques of the lyrics to 'Invisible' are somehwat superficial, and based on very little other than either an unrealistic expectation of 'One' level greatness, or being somewhat resistant to U2 trying to find greatness in new pastures. Invisible for mine is Bono's best work at integrating a lyric and an emotion into the music for 20 years. (I would say MOS, but I think the dynamic range of emotions is limited, it aches from start to finish, and pulls it off to about 80% effect). The chorus strips back the line-o-rama lyrical style to what is really important to convey the message, and he does unleash at times "your face like snow" and the way he hits the line "I am here" preceding the solo are perfect.

Agreed. I can't believe there's so much negativity about the song, to me it seems so well crafted and expressive.
 
That's about how I feel about it. Certainly listenable, but far from great and enough with the lyrical themes along the lines of "Take a stand, change the world, our music is going to save the world" already. I'm over the Crumbs/Beautiful/Crazy Tonight/Stand Up/Original/Yahweh/Sometimes lyrical song arc non-evolution that's happened over the last 14 years.

I think the songs you're mentioning here haven't got much to do with each other if you look at them closely, you're mashing up things heavily here. All of them are different in a certain way and all of them have something in them that gives a glimpse into the core of what U2 is all about. Dismissing these songs means dismissing most of what is really the essence of U2's music. Sometimes I feel people are criticizing Bono's more recent songwriting (of the 2000s) just because it's not the 80s or 90s. But things change and people change, their mind sets and focus and topical interests are changing. I, for myself, would be very concerned if he would still write today like he did 25 years ago.
 
That's all well and good <snipped cos it's already been quoted in full a couple of times and it's quite long>

This is a terrific post, in fact perhaps the best I've seen on here; agree wholeheartedly and I'm glad you've articulated one of the main problems overarching this (once?) GREAT band. Too much thinks, not enough feels - in the music as well as the lyrics. It's like what used to be said of the former Newcastle and Manchester United striker Andy Cole in front of goal - dreadful if he had time to think, but on instinct, completely deadly. It's the difference between BEING and DOING - they've had too much of the latter these past few years - like Picasso said, "you should always have an idea of what you're doing - but it should be a vague idea".

Bono's never been at his best when trying to write clearly and simply, but his lyrics when they're blurred and unfocused and "snapshot" are so brilliantly evocative you can hang whatever you want of yourself on them. "The wind will crack in wintertime, this bomb-blast-lightning waltz, no spoken words, just a screeeeeaaaaaammm". What's he on about? No idea. Does it sound RIGHT, evoke multiple complex feelings for me? YES.

Nowadays most of his lyrics - and to a certain extent the music - contain at least bits where there's definitely a sense of "We're U2. This is the bit you laugh at. This is the bit where you punch the air. This is the bit we all sing along to in a stadium. You're SAFE here." And in the same way that a lot of comedians and comedy writers are just not funny in person, the flipside seems to be true here; Bono and the others all seem really funny guys, but shoehorning clever or funny things into lyrics just seems to work against the band. Dress up as whatever, sure, but as far as the music goes, an arched eyebrow is always the enemy of art.
 
I adore Invisible. It gives me tingles.

Really connect with it. Shame it wasn't the true first single.
 
I adore Invisible. It gives me tingles.

Really connect with it. Shame it wasn't the true first single.

I usually hate seeing older songs show up on albums - I want 11-12 new songs - but I would not mind if there is an extended version, or re-worked version (given it was called the (RED) Edit) - I think it's a cracker, and their best single since Vertigo (and a better song than Vertigo too).
 
I usually hate seeing older songs show up on albums - I want 11-12 new songs - but I would not mind if there is an extended version, or re-worked version (given it was called the (RED) Edit) - I think it's a cracker, and their best single since Vertigo (and a better song than Vertigo too).

christian-bale-and-kermit-the-frog.gif
 
Anglo Celt - Was U2 video behind Lough Sheelin fireworks?
Local man John Brooks, who lives on the banks of Lough Sheelin spent hours wading through soft swamp to catch a glimpse of what was taking place out on the lake. He adds that earlier in the day, after rumour first broke that U2 might be filming at the location, he saw a blacked out luxury bus type vehicle travel in convoy with other “expensive looking” cars.

He described the fireworks show going on about for three-and-a-half hours, “in blasts of five a time or what have you.

“The actual road down to the pier was closed off, so I spent hours standing in freezing cold water and in the reeds to get a good look at what was happening.

“At one stage they had something like a laser show which took place, a big spot lamps which they were beaming right up into the sky. Whatever they were at, it definitely was a big deal.

"Apart from the rigs they had for letting off the fireworks they had two or three boats patrolling making sure no one could get near from the water”, he said.
 
I think the critiques of the lyrics to 'Invisible' are somehwat superficial, and based on very little other than either an unrealistic expectation of 'One' level greatness, or being somewhat resistant to U2 trying to find greatness in new pastures. Invisible for mine is Bono's best work at integrating a lyric and an emotion into the music for 20 years. (I would say MOS, but I think the dynamic range of emotions is limited, it aches from start to finish, and pulls it off to about 80% effect). The chorus strips back the line-o-rama lyrical style to what is really important to convey the message, and he does unleash at times "your face like snow" and the way he hits the line "I am here" preceding the solo are perfect.

Ok, I couldn't disagree more with you on the Invisible integrating lyric and emotion better than anything in 20 years. Yikes. I do agree that the "face like snow" and "I am here" are the two standout parts of the song. But those are two small parts in a sea of very bland, sort of awkward verses, that sound more like he is reading them off a cue card than delivering them from the heart.

Pop (17 years ago) had about 8 songs on it that are far superior to Invisible.
And I don't have to venture that far back. NLOTH had, the Title track, Magnificent, MOS, and Fez, all much more interesting and "connected" than this song. To me, this is sort of the "Train" of U2 songs. You know it, you've heard it, it's ok. eh.

I'm glad you like the song, but I think that it is so very middle of the road. Decent for a one off charity song yes. But lead single? No way. Filler in the middle of a 11 song album. Sure.
 
Unfortunately, I don't think he will revamp his look for the new album. The blue aviator shades and the beaver pelt are there to stay...:|

I think for this era they will look pretty identical to how they did for NLOTH, except for Bono's new shades and Adam's amazing hair. Would love to see Edge finally ditch that black beanie!
 
The band has, in recent days, been suspected of filming in Dublin, only for claims to be made that the closed set on Samuel Beckett Bridge at the weekend was for “an up and coming band” named ‘Summer Nights’. The phrase ‘summer nights’ is contained in the lyrics for ‘With or Without You’. - See more at: Anglo Celt - Was U2 video behind Lough Sheelin fireworks?

:laugh: Straws, they be graspin' at them.
 
Unfortunately, I don't think he will revamp his look for the new album. The blue aviator shades and the beaver pelt are there to stay...:|

Why doesn't anyone tell him though? Like family or friends?

Just a friendly word in his ear.
 
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