In Bono We Trust???

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Originally posted by madamc:
Isn't Bono worth over 500million$?? I think he has something stuck up his arse. As a hardcore Elvis Presly fan (Elvis gave money to charities out of generosity--no tax reductions) Bono should do the same. I'm sure some poor African country will appreciate a cool 300 million dollars cash.

there you go. but maybe i just read it the wrong way.

anyways it's kind of weird to think that there are people that cram themselves into ships to try and leave their country to come here, to america, for a new life when we have our own american citizens standing on street corners with signs asking for money. it just says a lot about the way this entire world is.


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The more of these I drink the more Bono makes sense.. - Bean from the KROQ Breakfast with U2.
 
I may be more idealist than some, I also disagree with Bono's actions but because I consider them as too few, and because I think they are only relieving politicians of their responsabilities.
Speaking about the money needed I think we have the wrong quantities, Bono's fault, at least in this forum, more than 20 million people have died in Africa, many claim that people should be reeducated, I think Americans have no idea what real poverty is, they speak about coke or ice creams or going to the movies, that is not poverty, no one that belongs to this comunity is poor, we all have a computer, internet, very far from poverty, real poverty.
I agree that as countries maybe we should worry about our own problems, irish for irish, americans for americans, and in my case mexicans for mexicans, but the problem in Africa is one that could reach us in some time, the way the proble in Africa is viewed by some, it seems some are waiting that all those people die, maybe is cheaper.
Americans have the right to ask that their tax money is used on what they want, but one thing is being overlooked in my opinion, no human being will have a complete life if his neighbour has a life below the minimum needs, this may sound naive or idealistic, but lets put some examples, some american problems...terrorism, drugs....
terrorism comes from hate to the USA, based on this country politics that affect the living of vast parts of the world, of course that doesn't justify wild acts of terrorism, but what happen to those people that live in starving countries, with no hope for a good life, where children can't access the minimum education? what happen when wealthy men offers this young children a living, an education, rasing them inside their organizations, giving them the knowledge to when the moment comes give their lifes for the misguided causes of this wealthy men, for many this is the only way to help themselves and their families.
What happen when a man in Peru or Colombia that has lands, but nothing to seed, no money, a family to feed? what happen when a wealthy drug dealer come and offer him a way of life in exchange of producing opium or pot?
we are talking about people that have seen kids die of starvation.
No one is safe as long as large parts of the population of the world are in this situations, we can't be just thinking that our world and what affects our life is just our neighbour, our city, not even our country.
About Bono actions, in my opinion he is an honest man in this respect, as much as a rock and roll star can be, to me his biggest asset is that he is able to point at a problem, but what I see, is that politicians hang out with him, look cool, and the next day can forget about the whole thing and see themselves in the newspaper, happy that the voters think they are cool and caring about people.
U2 fans brag about Bono savingthe world, but I don't see people really doing something, it seems that Bono has actually saved U2 fans from doing something, that is sad, of course must be exeptions, speaking of the money, some talk about Bono's 300 million, some talk about the 5bn USA government will lend to non corrupt countries that, if those rules were aplied absolutly not even the USA government will meet.
To put money in perspective, those 5bn is less than USA pib in one day, Mexico pays 12bn a year only in debt service, in 1995 Mexico banks were about to fold, to save them, Clinton lend Mexico 40 bn! just to save a bunch of banks, people want to save a continent with 300 million?
In my opinion the solutions is investment, and maybe not from governments, but big coorporations, investment in people, investing in health, in education, and then in jobs, charity is needed now, but that is no solution, unless there is investment in this areas the problem will never be solved.
Of course we surelly will not solve this in our lifetime, of course is not easy, not Africa, nor Antartic problem, not pollution problem, but I think become cynic is not the step we should give as a species.


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Please...don't make me say please, champagne and ice cream, it's not what I want, it's what I need.
 
I find this thread to be amusing.

Melon

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"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy
 
Originally posted by Elvis:
$30/yr from 10,000,000 first world citizens = $300 million

Will that help?
Is it fair to levy such a 'tax' on first world citizens?



I think the above comment is what is the "error" - if you forgive the use of that term - in your thinking. There are over 250 million people in the U.S. Granted, many are children and elderly with fixed or limited incomes, but surely far more than a mere 10 million people in this country can afford $30/year. $30 might buy us a few movie tickets or CDs or a decent meal. In a year, will we even remember that movie or the CD, let alone the meal? But that $30 could save a person's life. I estimate that at least 100,000,000 people in the U.S. alone can afford $30/year - and now we are talking about $3 billion.

Add in the same amount of people in Europe and other parts of the world and you can see how huge sums of money are generated.

Bono's speech wasn't just for the elite, it was for EVERYONE. Because even some of the poorest people in the U.S. still live like kings compared to those suffering in Third World nations. Surely, people can afford $30/year. And this was Bono's point.



[This message has been edited by doctorwho (edited 04-21-2002).]
 
Originally posted by doctorwho:


Bono's speech wasn't just for the elite, it was for EVERYONE. Because even some of the poorest people in the U.S. still live like kings compared to those suffering in Third World nations. Surely, people can afford $30/year. And this was Bono's point.


Almost everyone in this country could afford $30 per year...I sometimes spend $30 per week on magazines...compare our "poverty level" to the true poverty on this planet and its sickening. My sister, according to government statistics, is living near or below the poverty level at $14,000 per year with one child. She own a car, eats out every day, has nice clothes, a place to live and money in the bank. Imagine how a family in third world county could live on $14,000 per year.

I understand the arugment people pose about each country helping itself or those that ask what will happen after the money has been doled out but the same problems exist. But, I will always hold out hope that things can be changed. Not in my lifetime I'm certain of that but is it wrong to hope that someday everyone will have food and shelter?

I know nothing about global economics and I know I'm naive when it comes to the harsh realities of the world but I will always have hope. I honestly don't know what Bono's true motives are in this case but I would like to think that maybe he holds the same hope I do that things can change. It has to start somewhere.
 
Originally posted by Bono's American Wife:
Almost everyone in this country could afford $30 per year...I sometimes spend $30 per week on magazines...compare our "poverty level" to the true poverty on this planet and its sickening. My sister, according to government statistics, is living near or below the poverty level at $14,000 per year with one child. She own a car, eats out every day, has nice clothes, a place to live and money in the bank. Imagine how a family in third world county could live on $14,000 per year.

I understand the arugment people pose about each country helping itself or those that ask what will happen after the money has been doled out but the same problems exist. But, I will always hold out hope that things can be changed. Not in my lifetime I'm certain of that but is it wrong to hope that someday everyone will have food and shelter?

I know nothing about global economics and I know I'm naive when it comes to the harsh realities of the world but I will always have hope. I honestly don't know what Bono's true motives are in this case but I would like to think that maybe he holds the same hope I do that things can change. It has to start somewhere.

Terrific post, "naive" or not. Especially astute, I think, is your comment about the disparate poverty levels. Someone earlier in this post (Elvis?) mentioned that some Americans can't even buy ice cream. I hope--when faced with millions of starving children with distended bellies and millions of dying AIDS patients that can't pay for dollar-a-day drugs to save their own lives--that this was a joke.
 
Originally posted by doctorwho:
I think the above comment is what is the "error" - if you forgive the use of that term - in your thinking. There are over 250 million people in the U.S. Granted, many are children and elderly, but surely far more than a mere 10 million people can afford $30/year. $30 in the U.S. might be a few movie tickets or CDs or a decent meal. In a year, will be even remember that movie or the CD, let alone the meal? But that $30 could save a person's life. I estimate that at least 100,000,000 people in the U.S. alone can afford $30/year - and now we are talking about $3 billion.

Add in the same amount of people in Europe and other parts of the world and you can see how huge sums of money are generated.

Bono's speech wasn't just for the elite, it was for EVERYONE. Because even some of the poorest people in the U.S. still live like kings compared to those suffering in Third World nations. Surely, people can afford $30/year. And this was Bono's point.



Think about this:
If EVERYONE picked up one piece of loose trash each day and threw it away properly, this planet would be slightly more tidy...
This is often done on Earth Day (4/22), but the amount of people that actually participate as a percentage of the population is pretty depressing - and that's just one day per year.


10 million was only an example...

100 million you think could/would pay the $30? Do you know what percentage of this country is children? What percentage is below the 'poverty' line? I think many of us here are very fortunate, and tend to forget that many others aren't - even in the US. Do you really think that the drug dealing lined streets of Los Angeles or Seattle (for instance) have people that are willing to give up $30 to save Africa? Bad example.. intentionally... so try this: What about all the people here in the US that don't care about Africa, sad or not... it's true. So where is this $30/head going to come from?

I don't know these figures.. maybe someone here does... but how much money does the US give to Africa currently? how much does the US give to other nations? What reasons does the US give the money? Usually political or economic self-interest I'm sure.

So you've got a bunch of politicians in the US that usually can't even get together (rep. and dem.) to agree on a budget, and yet Bono expects them to just save Africa?

We're now spending tons (billions, likely) to fight terrorism, money that could be used (if it even existed) to fight AIDS/HIV and help those in need in 3rd world countries. A shame that some rich asshole thought it would be cute to kill thousands of people in one of our largest cities.

The world has problems... the US has problems... you want everything fixed? Sounds like utopia.

Etymology: Utopia, imaginary and ideal country in Utopia (1516) by Sir Thomas More, from Greek ou not, no + topos place
Date: 1610
1 : an imaginary and indefinitely remote place
2 often capitalized : a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions
3 : an impractical scheme for social improvement

Back to my last reply...
I noticed NO ONE has raised their hand to my example of pitching in $30 yet.

"And he's peeling off those dollar bills
Slapping them down
One hundred, two hundred"

Enough of all this talk...
Have a read: http://www.jubilee2000uk.org/analysis/reports/J+USA7.htm


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-Elvis
http://plot180.net/taol/
elvis@interference.com
 
Time for bed...
but one last note...
after spending the last 2 hours reading/researching some of our global problems, I'm depressed. I really do have little faith in human beings, despite the incredible efforts of a few (relative terms), to save our selves or this planet from total mutilation.

Two interesting sites I've spent time at tonight:
http://www.neweconomics.org/
(Formerly Jubilee 2000) Obviously lots of interesting info about debt relief, but I was very intrigued by what they have on 'time banking'

and
http://www.greenpeace.org/
Specifically reading about the 'Save or Delete' campaign which is aiming to preserve the ancient forests of the world.

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-Elvis
http://plot180.net/taol/
elvis@interference.com
 
ok I'm going to chime in on this.


thee are potentialy a lot more afghanistans in Africa. Places where, if we dont' give some stability to the people. Someone who wants to hurt us will.

Right now countries are spending 7 times more on debt payments than healthcare. That's internal spending. If you drop the debt, you are helping them to solve their own problems.

these are some stats from that newsweek article

The impacts of debt relief have been groundbreaking:

In Tanzania after initial debt relief efforts and an end to the practice of charging fees for education, over a million students have enrolled to get back to school in just three months.

In Uganda debt relief funds have been directed to education and elementary school enrollment doubled, from 40% to 90%.

Mozambique has vaccinated 500,000 children against deadly but preventable diseases.

Honduras will increase public education from 6th grade to 9th grade nationwide.


Now think about this, this is progress. You want education...well they are doing just that.

Also whatever money these countries really comes right back to us in debt payments. So essentially...if you want to give real aid to africa, you have to drop the debt, otherwise that money is not being spent it's coming ia check right back to us. So dont' increase foreign aid, but make the aid that you are spending actually worth something. By dropping the debt.

one more stat

Only 26 countries have qualified for debt relief so far. Many very poor countries are excluded like Haiti, Bangladesh and Nigeria.


So dropping the debt...does help. But you cant' expect the world to solve all of africa's problems. We can take the chains off, but unless they act, they'll stay in the dungeon. But if we dont take the chains off, they dont' even have a fighting chance.


I think the problem is people think " how can dropping the debt solve= all these problems" the answer is it can't. The Aids epidemic in africa is so big, dropping the debt is only abut 10 - 20 percent of the problem. The other 80-90 percent, has to be done by those people. And we need to drop the debt to allow them to better themselves.


We have poor in America that's a tragedy. Shoudl we take care of the first? It's about priority in that situation. Some of those people in africa, need dire help. Let's drop the debt, allow africa to help itself, and then once that's done...help ourselves.


I had a talk with elvis and a I mentioned this. But a lot of western nations were built at the expense of Africa. The least we can do, is drop the debt. Over the years no place on this planet has been exploited more than africa. Slavery, Colonialism, and hell it wasn't even until relativly recently that Apartheid ended in South Africa. ( yes I'm aware that aprtheid has very little to do with this, but it shows how little people seem to value africa and africans).

Now my last point These countries, aren't getting anywhere, they aren't paying off the debt, they are barely paying the interest on it. You know what that means? That NO MATTER WHAT, they will not get better, unless the debt is dropped.


Now I'm n against unconditional debt relief, there must be conditions to how the money is spent. But, I think the grand scheme of things, dropping the debt is a good first step towards letting Africa stand on it's own two feet.


VS Naipaul once wrote something very simple that shocked me. " Africa has no future". And if the institutions that caused the problem do not work to solve it. Naipaul, will be right. America has a stake in this. Dropping the debt makes american jobs more secure becuase those nations will not be so willing to drop wages to attract companies to create jobs. America has an interest in this, because the entire world is connected. America, is not an island immune to the outside world 9/11 taught us all that. ( I know that 9/11 has very little to do with africa, but I'm just showing that our perceptions need to change as to how much the rest of the world affects us).


Does Bono have a right to impose the american dream upon us?...NO...Do you ahve to agree with the way bono says things to believe in debt relief?..NO. Do we have a responsibility to at least try to soften the blow of the greatest disaster in the history of mankind..YES.


[This message has been edited by Arun V (edited 04-21-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Arun V (edited 04-21-2002).]
 
Originally posted by Elvis:
The world has problems... the US has problems... you want everything fixed? Sounds like utopia.

Back to my last reply...
I noticed NO ONE has raised their hand to my example of pitching in $30 yet.


I think you severely underestimate the power of people. Look at the outpouring of love, care and generosity over the events of Sep. 11th. People opened not just their wallets, but their homes and more importantly, their minds.

And that is Bono's true goal here - to open people's minds. $30/year is such a paltry sum - even some of the poorest people in this country can afford that. Bonochick gave an example of her sister living in "poverty" yet eating out every day. If her sister saved 10 cents a day - a mere dime - she would have $36.50 saved for the year, which could be her donation. How often do we even fail to stoop down to pick up a dime off the street? A dime - it's not worth the energy for us to retrieve it! But add those dimes together and we could save a person's life. If Bono can convince people how this effort, this mere dime a day effort, is so desperately needed, people will respond.

You asked if people would pitch in $30/year. How do you know if we haven't done so already? Most people keep charity issues private. Some of us spend that much or more a month, perhaps even a week, on various charity issues. But if you want someone to raise their hand, then I will. I will glady donate $30/year - I'd donate more - to this very worthwhile cause.

However, this work must go beyond the individuals. It must go to the governments. If the U.S. forgave all debt to Third World countries, but told me that I'd owe $30 more this year in taxes, I'd readily agree - as I'm sure most Americans would. Sure, some would grumble and some would raise some very valid points - namely, that we don't mind forgiving the debt as long as our generosity is not abused. And I have to agree. I support monitored debt relief. After all, these countries are in such dire straits due to past abuse by their leaders - we don't want this abuse to occur again. But to sit back and ignore the plight of these people is too much.

You stated that if everyone picked up one piece of trash, then we wold have a far more beautiful country. However, as you correctly noted, sadly we don't. Indeed, people are lazy. We'd much rather push things off onto another day or someone else. But if we are inspired, informed, united, great things can be accomplished. This happens every Earth Day and it can happen here. This is Bono's goal - to inspire us so that we become united - so that we together help this world.

Bono is not an economist. Most likely, he does not have this "great plan" that you want us to provide - because he is not capable of making a plan. But what he is capable of doing is inspiring others who can make those plans. He is capable of giving a voice to those who have none or who simply are ignored. And from what I've observed, Bono is performing his job beautifully.

We will never live in an utopia and to suggest that our efforts to help others is an attempt to create an utopia is both insulting and naive. Just because there is cruelty and abuse in this world, should we turn our backs and accept the finality of it? If you truly feel this way Joel, then I pray for you. Because when I look at the world, I see a beautiful place, with hope and love - enough power to conquer at least some of our ailments. Maybe I'm the one who is now being overly optimistic and naive, but I cannot resolve myself to accept something that I know can be changed.

So I will proudly raise my hand and offer my services - even if it just is a mere $30/year.

It wasn't too long ago, Joel, that you asked for help yourself to keep Interference running. And while many people chose to ignore you, others did respond - some very generously. Now, imagine if you had Bono on your side helping you - imagine the response you'd get then! This is what Bono is trying to do here, but on a far larger scale.
 
Originally posted by doctorwho:
....If the U.S. forgave all debt to Third World countries, but told me that I'd owe $30 more this year in taxes, I'd readily agree - as I'm sure most Americans would. ...

Doc,

For the most part, I'm trying to play devils advocate here. I'm trying to stir the pot, as I often do, but this time to raise awareness to a great problem. This is why this thread STILL sits here, in this forum, and not moved to FYM. As I said, I grew up an idealist, with huge dreams and hopes that the world would become a better place... I still have those dreams and hopes. I said that people need to be educated -- and I'm hoping that more people are reading this thread than the FEW posting to it.

You mentioned people being lazy...
Well, I'll openly say that since the inception of this site (1996) I have increasingly been disillusioned by U2 fans. Part of why I came to enjoy U2 so much, was the activism they portrayed, but while running this site I have gotten to meet MANY U2 fans, and observe the U2 community in a way most can't. These observations have left me dissapointed.

At times I have had links, stories, and even helped with a web based campaign for AI which got U2 sites to 'black out' in an effort to drive signatures. That project was incredibly effective, and has got me thinking that in the future (with the new site) I'd like help out other organizations and causes in similar ways - perhaps with U2 fans, and perhaps beyond.

Education is key, whether it be 'here' at home, or in 3rd world countries.



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-Elvis
http://plot180.net/taol/
elvis@interference.com
 
Elvis, if you're offering to spearhead a fundraiser, I'll gladly contribute my $30 or more. It's roughly what I wasted last night on my entertainment and food anyways.

I will be the first to admit I don't know all the answers, and I don't think that simply "dropping the debt" is going to cure the problems of the world. I may be young, but I've seen enough of the 3rd world to know that the problems are deep-seated, complex, and not to be solved overnight. However, I don't feel that my conscience will let me sit back and do nothing. So whether it be supporting initiatives like Drop the Debt or volunteering two years of my life to helping in the Peace Corps, I feel that SOMETHING has to be done. I can only speak for myself, not the bulk of U2 fans, but if Bono's actions on behalf of Africa can be the spark that creates action, then in my opinion, he's done a good job.
 
ACTION!


I have posted before and some others have showed their disappointment with the majority of U2 fans that "agree" with Bono, what worth to agree with Bono has?
What is the matter in bragging about Bono doing the "right" thing?
Does that make us better persons because we are fans of a band that seems to have conciense?
As Elvis I grow up as an idealistic, and I think that in the 80's it was easy to get fond with U2 not only for the quality of music, but because they expresed what WE believed could be done to change the world.
Now, is very easy to get dissapointed, but who are we dissapointed of? Bono? U2 fans? ourselves?
All this is talk, what matters is to do SOMETHING to change the world in the way each an every one can, not worring if someone else does it or not, but for ourselves, its the only way to not be disapointed, and when I say that, I'm not refering only to Africa, could be the earth environment, could be the poor people in our countries, there is lots of issues in this world where we can show what kind of people we are, where each and everyone can make a diference.
I'm not asking for people to brag about what they do or don't do, to brag about what charity or what project we support, in my opinion that is a very personal matter.
If we really want to make a statement, lets forget if Bono is right or wrong, lets take some ACTIONS for ourselves,

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Please...don't make me say please, champagne and ice cream, it's not what I want, it's what I need.

[This message has been edited by rafmed (edited 04-21-2002).]
 
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
Elvis, if you're offering to spearhead a fundraiser, I'll gladly contribute my $30 or more.

icon36.gif
 
Originally posted by rafmed:
I think Americans have no idea what real poverty is, they speak about coke or ice creams or going to the movies, that is not poverty, no one that belongs to this comunity is poor, we all have a computer, internet, very far from poverty, real poverty.


Um, Raf, i didnt read all of your reply, and i most certainly DO whole heartedly agree with you that the vast majority of Americans have NO idea what real poverty is, but you seriously DO need to think more carefully about the last part i quoted you on.
I am, and have been for most of my life, very poor, financially.
I have gone many days without food. I have had to do without healthcare, even in emergencies sometimes, I have been homeless, and had to sleep on a tennis court bench with my dog.( although i didnt really sleep much as its dangerous there at night, lots of gangmembers and pervs around, as well as people who know who i am, and would gossip.). When i did have a house, for a very long time i lived in 3rd world conditions, and my mom, pets, and i suffered greatly.
I have experienced and witnessed immense suffering and death, experienced the very definition of the word "terror", been persecuted and terrorized by the local government, suffered the loss of loved ones....God, i could go on, but i have to get off the computer now.
Oh.... and as for Interbet access, libraries are FREE, Raf. And right now , i'm using someone elses comp, so its still free for me.
Even though things are a bit better now, and i have a job that actually pays ona regular basis, i still live WELL below the poverty level, and with all the rent i have to pay, I still skip lunch, and dont get to "live" like other Americans do. Life still doesnt have much meaning for me, and my future is still bleak. every day is still a battle for me. my health is not that great, but i cant afford DRs, tests, and treatment.
I'd like to say more, but i'm out of time. if you want, you can email, and I would be more than happy to tell you what many Americans experience, my perspective on America, etc. Maybe then people wouldnt bitch at me for hating this country so much. Although, i really dont hate the country, just the government...
Oh, and education???? LOL. I cant afford that, either...
frown.gif



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Look...look what you've done to me...You've made me poor and infamous, and I thank you...

My name is MISS MACPHISTO...I'm tired and i want to go HOME...

"Well you tell...Bonovista,that i said hello and that my codename is Belleview" - Bono before opening night of Anaheim Elevation concert

Well tonight thank God it's them, instead of you...

[This message has been edited by Miss MacPhisto (edited 04-22-2002).]
 
I guess I should change my comment to "most Americans in this community", I'm sorry if my comment offended you, and I'm deeply sorry that you had to go through all that, maybe we are asking too much, that people worry about people suffering in other countries, when we don't care about our neighbours, even in your case, I think you may agree, and I really hope, that your chances to find a way to go up are better than for most of the people that would be in a similar situation in an African country.



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Please...don't make me say please, champagne and ice cream, it's not what I want, it's what I need.
 
Originally posted by rafmed:
ACTION!


As Elvis I grow up as an idealistic, and I think that in the 80's it was easy to get fond with U2 not only for the quality of music, but because they expresed what WE believed could be done to change the world.
Now, is very easy to get dissapointed, but who are we dissapointed of? Bono? U2 fans? ourselves?



For me, the exact opposite is true.

In the 80's, sure Bono/U2 produced excellent music and gave a voice to the tragedies of the world - but that and $1 got me a cup of coffee at a local diner.

In other words, one of my biggest problems with the 80's U2 - and one of the reasons I have bonded much more tightly with the 90's and 00's U2 - is that back in the 80's Bono preached, but he didn't really seem to do much. Sure, they did a charity concert here, another there; they talk about AI at one gig, GreenPeace at another. That's great - but is that REALLY offering a solution? Is that really doing something?

Now, not only is Bono talking about the tragedies of the world, he is doing something to relieve them. I can relate to this far, FAR more than his 80's preaching and rants. I didn't need someone to tell me about South Africa back then - I had a newspaper for that. What I needed was a solution. Now, when Bono talks about Africa, he presents a solution. This, I appreciate.

Is the solution perfect? No - as I've written before, the debt relief must be monitored to prevent further abuse in these countries. It must ensure that funds are going to help people who need medicine, food, shelter and education. And I realize that by monitoring debt relief some will argue that it will be like these African countries are reliquishing control - that they are at the mercy of either another country or the U.N. However, unless someone offers a better solution, I don't see any alternative. These countries could either let their people die, but retain their pride, or they can accept the $$, accept training and have their country grow.

Frequently, critics and even Bono have stated how ridiculous it is for a rock star to be involved in this program. But the facts remain - he is getting results. The U.S. has already donated a good sum of $$ to this cause. Is it enough? NO! However, it's better than the NOTHING that was donated before Bono became involved. Therefore, to ask Bono to do even more is a bit selfish. How much should a person like him be involved? What else do you propose for him to do? And most importantly, what are YOU doing to help?

So unlike you Rafmed, I am not disappointed in myself, U2 or Bono. However, I did feel this way in the 80's. Now, Bono has given me confidence that we can make a real difference - that the situation is not hopeless. And I appreciate that infinitely more than any 80's era preaching.
 
What is the point if Bono do something or not? are we happy because Bono is doing something? the only value that Bono actions or preach has, is that he points to certain problems, one man is not gona save the world as some may seem to believe. Solutions? are you waiting for solutions? the only solution is the one you can give as everyone else, and that is diferent for eveyone, what we can do on our level is a solution. The problem is in many cases we are waiting for someone else to solve things for us.
I never stated that personally I'm dissapointed, and if you say that Bono make you think that you can make a diference I think that is his real value. Speaking of what I do, or not, I have always thinked as I stated before in this thread, that charity and work for community in my case is a private matter, to me start with what I do or not is not the point. I could ask you the same? what you do, instead of waiting for what Bono do. Maybe the only way we could feel related in this case would be to take Elvis word about creating some kind of fund and do something as a community.


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Please...don't make me say please, champagne and ice cream, it's not what I want, it's what I need.
 
Eh, its okay, Raf. Practically everyone these days seems to believe that all Americans are happy and healthy and wealthy, yada yada yada. I think its just that Americans dont WANT to believe that America could possibly have fatal flaws, serious chinks in its armor.
Of course my chances are better than if I lived in Africa....
But i just dont understand why Bono , as well as most Americans, feel that there are no needy people in America, and that its only Africans, and people in other such countries, who are in dire need of help. There is suffering in your own backyard, wherever you live.
Why do we need to put anyone first??? Why cant we help Africans, Americans, and anyone else who needs it at the same time???
The idea of helping the Africans first, and then others, is nothing short of ludicrous.
By the time we get them on their feet....the needy people elsewhere will all be dead. And so will America. If somehting isnt done NOW, America will become nothing less than a pitiful third world country itself. Its already happening. America is on a steady decline, and it will take Africas place if the naive dont wake up, look around, and do something about it.
I'd love to talk to Bono or the others about this. they are smart, and theyd understand.
Americans are very thick and its very hard to get this through to them. They just...never learn.
rolleyes.gif
 
America on a steady decline? I think not. The latest United Nations figures have the USA at #6 as far as standard of living in the world. This whole steady decline thing was put out in the late 80s. Of course, that did not happen, what happened was the fastest economic expansion in USA history. Over the past 10 years, both Crime and Poverty have gone down. Unemployment is only 5.6% currently. The natural rate of Unemployment is supposed to be 6%. The number of people living in Poverty in the USA is currently around 12% of the population. But Poverty defined in the USA is income of 8,000 dollars or less per year per person! Poverty in Africa is defined as less than 365 dollars a year per person.
Reducing poverty over seas is very important to the USA because nearly 20% of the USA's GDP(value of all goods and services per year in the USA) comes from Exports. Also, the USA imports lots of raw materials and natural resources. Peace, Stability and prosperity are very important to the USA worldwide. Poverty and instability creat war that can hurt US interest. There is nothing that is more expensive or a drain on resources than war. One way to prevent war is by being more activily engaged overseas both militarily, and economically. This is the 21st century, we live in an interdependent world.
 
Originally posted by STING2:
America on a steady decline? I think not. The latest United Nations figures have the USA at #6 as far as standard of living in the world. This whole steady decline thing was put out in the late 80s. Of course, that did not happen, what happened was the fastest economic expansion in USA history. Over the past 10 years, both Crime and Poverty have gone down. Unemployment is only 5.6% currently. The natural rate of Unemployment is supposed to be 6%. The number of people living in Poverty in the USA is currently around 12% of the population. But Poverty defined in the USA is income of 8,000 dollars or less per year per person! Poverty in Africa is defined as less than 365 dollars a year per person.
Reducing poverty over seas is very important to the USA because nearly 20% of the USA's GDP(value of all goods and services per year in the USA) comes from Exports. Also, the USA imports lots of raw materials and natural resources. Peace, Stability and prosperity are very important to the USA worldwide. Poverty and instability creat war that can hurt US interest. There is nothing that is more expensive or a drain on resources than war. One way to prevent war is by being more activily engaged overseas both militarily, and economically. This is the 21st century, we live in an interdependent world.

Facts, numbers, or not... I think that was the most insensitive reply I have read. Tact? You have none. Perhaps you should try reading her previous replies in addition to the one you just replied to - if you haven't already.



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-Elvis
http://plot180.net/taol/
elvis@interference.com
 
Originally posted by Bono's American Wife:
My sister, according to government statistics, is living near or below the poverty level at $14,000 per year with one child. She own a car, eats out every day, has nice clothes, a place to live and money in the bank. Imagine how a family in third world county could live on $14,000 per year.

Well, I must say your sister would be middle class here...that amount would be R$ 2.800 per month, or 14 times the minimum salary in Brasil...definitely middle class. And she has only one child, much better than the average of our poors here. Can you see the difference? It is as big as an ocean. I myself earn R$ 42.000 per year, or US$ 17.500, and I have a good job, I have been working the last 21 years for a state-owned bank, I have a good education, I have health insurance for me and my kids, I have a car and an apartment (with a huge mortgage to tell you the truth)...I know I'm very, very fortunate, much more than lots of others citizens here. That's the reason why I pay monthly contributions to at least 3 charity institutions, plus Greenpeace, because I care.

I also know that any poor people in Brasil is still not as poor as those people in Africa, the ones that Bono is trying to help. I wholeheartedly believe that something can be done, and also that they are getting some good results. I know that Bono is right and I admire his tireless efforts even more nowadays.

[This message has been edited by follower (edited 04-23-2002).]
 
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
But i just dont understand why Bono , as well as most Americans, feel that there are no needy people in America, and that its only Africans, and people in other such countries, who are in dire need of help. There is suffering in your own backyard, wherever you live.


I think Africa problem could be more appealing, but you are right in that, I have posted that before that the important thing is to do something in our level and that there are many places where we can make a diference, could be our backyard, our neighbourhood, our country any place.

Originally posted by Elvis:Facts, numbers, or not... I think that was the most insensitive reply I have read. Tact? You have none. Perhaps you should try reading her previous replies in addition to the one you just replied to - if you haven't already.

Sad but true, even numbers are needed, we sometimes seem to forget we are talking about human beings, and sometimes friends and close ones.


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Please...don't make me say please, champagne and ice cream, it's not what I want, it's what I need.
 
Originally posted by Elvis:
Facts, numbers, or not... I think that was the most insensitive reply I have read. Tact? You have none. Perhaps you should try reading her previous replies in addition to the one you just replied to - if you haven't already.


I have to disagree with you here, Elvis. I think STING2's post was very concise, not harsh or without tact.

He correctly stated the situation in the U.S. Our standard of living is so high, that a person is at "poverty" when they make $8K a year. Granted, this income is quite low, but hardly at the dollar a day level of those in other parts of the world.

STING2 didn't state that the U.S. should ignore its own to help others, nor do I feel this is implied by his words. Rather, STING2 simply showed that the U.S. is in a good position to offer more help to others than it has been. And this is quite true - the U.S. and Canada are rather stingy with their international generosity. But helping another does not mean that one has to ignore one's self to do so. The U.S. can afford to help both its own people as well as those abroad. And STING2's facts demonstrate this point quite well.

In truth, Elvis, if there is a person lacking just a bit of tact, it could be the "Anti-Bono" that started this whole thread...
 
I'm sorry Elvis if you thought my response was insensitive. Perhaps my initial statement did not have tact. I should have said "I respectfully disagree with your comments on the decline of the USA. Here is what my opinion is on this." The rest though was simply my opinion and list of facts. I have seen far worse on this forum than "I think not". But I'll try to be more carefull in the future. I hope this helps and that no one was hurt.
 
Its ok, ive heard much worse. But I didnt base my reply on stats or numbers. I based my reply on what i SEE, HEAR, and READ everyday. Just take a walk through most of the LA area, and you will see that it has become very third world.
Everyday, there are times when i cannot even believe that this is America. In fact, i feel that way more often than not. Not just because of the conditions and the people, but because of the way the government behaves torwards us. Its scary, it truly is.
And, anyone who doesnt believe me, i would be more than happy to give anyone a grand tour of LA and spend the day with them and show and tell them what its like. You will see for yourself, and youll second guess those statistics.
That said, i dont want to believe the US is on a decline. If anyone can actually PROVE me wrong, itd make my day. But itd have to be something more convincing than statistics.
Also, as I'm not saying that we shouldnt help Africa, or anyone else who needs and deserves our help. Its just...I see all these charities and groups and people who claim to care, and claim to be doing something to help, but are they REALLY???? I see no evidense. I'm just very skeptical at this point, tired of the futile attempts to help, and i really need to see some proof of progress.
When you have some, call me. *sigh*
 
Originally posted by rafmed:
Sad but true, even numbers are needed, we sometimes seem to forget we are talking about human beings, and sometimes friends and close ones.



Yeah,thats my point.
And yes, we have to help those in our own countries/cities/neighborhoods as well as the needy in other countries. Why cant we do both? Why neglect anybody? Charity begins at home.
People love to tell me, why do you help animals? People are more important, why do you put animals over people?
My response is always, I'm not putting one over the other, i'm interested in helping both.
There is room enough to help all who need it.
 
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