If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

[Yahweh]

People here and elseware seem to have a lot of hate for the 2 most current records from U2. I have some questions for those people...some of the people that dont like the new album plesae tell me the answers to the following questions.

- If Joshua Tree came out today, would it be seen as a "sell-out"? Yes or no and give me a reason as to why.

- When you as a fan were first getting into U2 what got you into them and what do you feel is missing now?

- What makes Achtung Baby selling a great amount of records any more of an accomplishment then How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb selling a lot of records?

- If you could come up with a perfectly composed U2 record what would it be composed of? Eg. musical style, genre, tempo, rythem.

I am just wanting these questions answered and all well thought out arguements will be looked at. I would apprciate as many responses as possible to these questions so that people can get past the "it sucks" point and give some reasons as to why.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

- When you as a fan were first getting into U2 what got you into them and what do you feel is missing now?

i pretty much grew up with them but it was achtung baby that made me a fan. i guess imo what is missing now is just an edge (no pun intended), that oomph they had back then.

 

[LMP]

- What makes Achtung Baby selling a great amount of records any more of an accomplishment then How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb selling a lot of records?

I think it's because everyone thought U2 was burnt out and had only reached their musical peak at The Joshua Tree...
...and BAM! here they come with Achtung Baby, totally reinventing themselves and just taking the 90s by storm, and it sold a buncha copies.

It's more of an accomplishment because they realized they were at the end of their rope after Rattle and Hum, and started their "Ironic Era" as I like to call it.
HTDAAB was coming off the tails of ATYCLB and even though fans here are really critical about it, most mainstream people thought it was awesome and so did the critics AND Grammy committee. There was no need to go and fix the holes they caused themselves like back in 1988, they had already made their 2nd major comeback after the commercial *but not musical* failure of Pop.

So basically, Achtung was needed big time while HTDAAB, still an amazing album, didn't have that sense of urgency that Achtung had.

*whew *

 

[zoopop]

Tough question. I think alot of U2 fans, including myself sometimes, want U2 in the element they were in when our favorite albums came out. I think for the most part we are proud U2 fans who want the best for the band but don't want them to cross that line of "selling out". I think great albums are determined how relivant they sound throughout the years. I think Auctung Baby is U2's best album because it sounds like nothing I've ever heard before and still sounds fresh today. But to answer your questions:

If Joshua Tree came out today, would it be seen as a "sell-out"?
This depends if U2 had previous success. Joshua Tree was somewhat huge because U2 were new faces to the mainstream.

When you as a fan were first getting into U2 what got you into them and what do you feel is missing now?
It was about the music. I don't think nothing is missing now. If I was never a U2 fan I still think I would enjoy HTDAAB. Maybe not the extent of being a U2 freak, but I would think its a great album, especially for a band this late in their careers.

If you could come up with a perfectly composed U2 record what would it be composed of? Eg. musical style, genre, tempo, rythem.
Its hard to do that with U2. What is so great about them is that they have covered so many genres and sounds. To me U2's perfect record came with all the different genres, tempo, style came with their attempt on Pop. The idea for the to cover so many styles in one album fell a little short (still one of my favorites).

 

[bathiu]

If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

No. It's what's on the album that makes it bad.

 

[Bono's shades]

- When you as a fan were first getting into U2 what got you into them and what do you feel is missing now?

I got into the band when JT was released. I loved them because the songs were amazing, the lyrics had a lot of depth and they had so much passion and conviction. They were completely unlike the music that was popular at the time (hair metal, '80s pop). It seemed weird to me that JT sold as well as it did because it was so atypical of its time period. It was like U2 had entered the mainstream, but were still apart from it - kind of above it all.

U2 are still above average when you look at them in comparison to mainstream music nowadays. Some of their songs are still very moving (Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own is a prime example), but a distressingly large number of songs sound like a bland, "lite" version of what they did in the '80s (like Beautiful Day and City of Blinding Lights). And I miss the adventerousness of '90s U2. I may have originally fallen in love with the band in the '80s, but '90s U2 made me fall in love with them all over again. It's like the band is so afraid of taking risks and being unpopular that they've gotten themselves stuck in a holding pattern - or (bad pun alert) "Stuck in a Moment." Also, Bono's lyrics just aren't as complex and interesting as they used to be - sometimes they are downright cringe-worthy. "Where is the love?" What is this, a Black Eyed Peas song?

 

[Windmilllane]

Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

Also, Bono's lyrics just aren't as complex and interesting as they used to be - sometimes they are downright cringe-worthy. "Where is the love?" What is this, a Black Eyed Peas song?

Some of the lyrics are really bad. "Always pain before the child is born" "Some people have high rises on their backs."

What ever happened to, "Don't believe in forced entry. Don't believe in rape. But everytime she passes by, wild thoughts escape"

 

[Zoots]

Re: Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

Some of the lyrics are really bad. "Always pain before the child is born" "Some people have high rises on their backs."

What ever happened to, "Don't believe in forced entry. Don't believe in rape. But everytime she passes by, wild thoughts escape"

so true!!!!!! Bono's lyrics have definitely gone down the drain. Even simple songs with repetitive choruses, like With or Without You for example had interesting lyrics...

See the stone set in your eyes
See the thorn twist in your side
I wait for you
Sleight of hand and twist of fate
On a bed of nails she makes me wait
And I wait without you

Compared to another song with a repetitive chorus...

I was born a child of grace
Nothing else about the place
Everything was ugly but your beautiful face
It left me no illusion
I saw you in the curve of the moon
In the shadow cast across my room
You heard me in my tune
When I just heard confusion

Which one's more cryptic and makes you think? And which one's easier to understand? I think it's obvious.

 

[Axver]

Re: Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

Some of the lyrics are really bad. "Always pain before the child is born" "Some people have high rises on their backs."

What ever happened to, "Don't believe in forced entry. Don't believe in rape. But everytime she passes by, wild thoughts escape"

Yeah, and the following are truly BRILLIANT:

I can't live with or without you.

I want to run, I want to hide.

One love, one life, when it's one need in the night.

Boom-cha, boom-cha, discotheque.

I have climbed highest mountains, I have run through the fields only to be with you.

And the fever when I'm beside her, desire.

Babyface, tinfoil hair all tied up in lace.

Now, let's have a look at Bono's crap lyrics from HTDAAB:

From the brightest star comes the blackest hole/You had so much to offer, why did you offer your soul? ... You speak of signs and wonders but I need something other/I'd believe if I was able but I'm waiting on the crumbs from your table.

A heart that hurts is a heart that beats.

Beneath the noise, below the din, I hear a voice whispering in science and in medicine, "I was a stranger, you took me in." (Might be Edge's lines but U2Wanderer.org credits the whole song to U2/Bono.)

Take this soul, stranded in some skin and bones, take this soul and make it sing.

Yeah, Bono used to be such a brilliant lyricist but he's just plain shit now.

 

[Axver]

Re: Re: Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

Which one's more cryptic and makes you think? And which one's easier to understand? I think it's obvious.

So just because something is more cryptic and less easy to understand, it's better? How the zark does that work? It seems like elitism, plain and simple "my favourite song is vaguer than yours" music-intellectual snobbery.

 

[unosdostres14]

Re: Re: Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

From the brightest star comes the blackest hole/You had so much to offer, why did you offer your soul?

Yeah, Bono used to be such a brilliant lyricist but he's just plain shit now.

Are you kidding?? Those are brilliant lyrics!!! From the brighest star, comes the blackest hole. Scientifically and emotionally true. You know how old people are like, 'it was better in my day, the good old days....'. I think U2 fans are like that. We're overcritical of stuff now bc we look back on the past with only fond memories. It's not like there wasn't a single bad lyric in JT and AB. They had their great lines and HTDAAB has it's great lines. I think people are overcritical and think of the old U2 as the 'good old days where everything was perfect'.

 

[Zoots]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

So just because something is more cryptic and less easy to understand, it's better? How the zark does that work? It seems like elitism, plain and simple "my favourite song is vaguer than yours" music-intellectual snobbery.

I would ANY DAY prefer thought-provoking songs to simple crap like 'Oh you look so beautiful tonight' or 'All because of you, I am'. It's not about snobbery. It's about music making you think.

Another great example:

In my dream I was drowning my sorrows
But my sorrows, they learned to swim
Surrounding me, going down on me
Spilling over the brim
Waves of regret and waves of joy
I reached out for the one I tried to destroy

 

[Axver]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

Are you kidding?? Those are brilliant lyrics!!!

I know that. I was being sarcastic. Note I quoted some really poor old lyrics and called them brilliant, then quoted some really good modern ones and called them crap. The sarcasm was only too obvious.

 

[Axver]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

I would ANY DAY prefer thought-provoking songs to simple crap like 'Oh you look so beautiful tonight' or 'All because of you, I am'.

If you haven't noticed, Bono sings what's appropriate for the song. COBL's a great example. The music builds up and paints the image that inspired it - Streets blasting out and the post-11 September New York arena awash with the brilliant red glow. Once you have that image in your head, "oh you look so beautiful tonight" suddenly becomes incredibly appropriate.

'All because of you, I am' is a great one to get you thinking about the lyrics of the whole song, actually. After all, 'I am' could be referring to God. It has inspired some good lyrical debates here.

You say you want lyrics that make you think. Well then, think about the lyrics before you go mouthing off them. You clearly haven't done much thinking since the Pop era. Real shame, as U2 have written plenty of insightful songs since then.

It's not about snobbery. It's about music making you think.

And Crumbs From Your Table doesn't make you think? That's Bono at his most bitingly political. Excluding Please, he hasn't been that harsh since the days of Bullet The Blue Sky and Silver And Gold.

 

[Zoots]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

The sarcasm was only too obvious.

God!!!

 

[unosdostres14]

hahaha......I can't pick up sarcasm on a forum...

 

[blueyedpoet]

ok to be honest, Actung Baby is probably Bono at his finest. All Because of You is right around where bono finds him at his worst. "An intellectua tortoise." I mean I absolutely love Bono and i love this album...but there are things that are just obvious. Nevertheless, lyrics sometimes are meant to look as good on paper as poetry does. For instance, COBL sounds lyrically brilliant. When you read it, something feels missing.
Still, Crumbs, Miracle Drug, Yahweh are amazing words. And, something should be said for the way Bono captured this sort of conversational tone to Sometimes. No, those lyrics do not have the dark tone that say Until the end of the world or even with or without you, but they capture the mood Bono wanted to convey perfectly. Isn't that the important thing?

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

I know that. I was being sarcastic. Note I quoted some really poor old lyrics and called them brilliant, then quoted some really good modern ones and called them crap. The sarcasm was only too obvious.

so obviously it can work either way. the only beef i have with bono's songwriting these days is that i don't think he writes enough political stuff anymore. and sometimes he can be too cliched. the first that comes to mind is the second verse of staring at the sun. i can't really explain why, but even when i first heard the song, it just made me roll my eyes.

 

[Zoots]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If an album sells well does that mean its bad?

I don't hate these last 2 albums you know. In fact I really like certain songs in both, inspite of the fact that some others are mediocre. New York's lyrics in my opinion eerily and perfectly describes the feeling on 9/11. I'm sure you know which line I'm talking about. Crumbs and Miracle Drug are my favorite songs off the latest one. But I can't shake off the feeling that overall, Bono's lyrical ability has gone down because there's always an awkward lyric here and there. Examples:

DON'T LIKE: with a mouth full of teeth you ate all your friends
DO LIKE:
Where you live should not decide
Whether you live or whether you die

DON'T LIKE:
Some people get squashed crossing the tracks
Some people got high rises on their backs
DO LIKE:
I'm alive, I'm being born, I just arrived, I'm at the door
Of the place I started out from, And I want back inside

See what I'm saying? Anyway you cannot compare any of that to:

Broken back to the ceiling
Broken nose to the floor
I scream at the silence, it's crawling
It crawls under the door
There's a rope around my neck
And there's a trigger in your gun
Jesus say something
I am someone

 

[unosdostres14]

For anything you can find select lyrics which are particularly weak. Not EVERYTHING Bono wrote in the 80s and early 90s was brilliant.

"I know a girl, a girl called Party
Party girl
I know she wants more than a party
Party girl
And she won't tell me her name

I know a boy, a boy called Trash
Trash Can
I know he does all that he can
Wham Bam
And he won't tell me his name"

They had lyrics like this too. I'm not gonna bash his songwriting abilities. Every album has it's brilliant lines and also it's duds.

 

[lazarus]

- What makes Achtung Baby selling a great amount of records any more of an accomplishment then How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb selling a lot of records?

To get back to the original post, which wasn't really about lyrics specifically, I'd like to address the Achtung Baby issue.

It is WITHOUT A DOUBT more impressive that AB sold so many copies compared to The Bomb. While U2's current style of rock might not be what all the kids are into now, it's certainly more accessible to the mainstream than AB was in 1991.

Do you remember what was popular back then? Cheese metal bands like Bon Jovi and Warrant were still popular. Even people with good taste were listening to edgier stuff like Guns and Roses. Metallica was big. Nirvana would soon take over. There certainly wasn't a market for the heavily European-influenced Achtung Baby, with industrial noise, some hip-hop beats (WAY before it was trendy), and DARK DARK DARK.

I go back to the article Brian Eno wrote for Rolling Stone around the time the album came out called "Bringing up Baby". Here's a quote:

"Buzzwords on this record were trashy, throwaway, dark, sexy, and industrial (all good) and earnest, polite, sweet, righteous, rockist, and linear (all bad)."

Do you realize what a risk U2 was taking by releasing that record? People who weren't into those styles weren't likely to want to hear it, and people that liked the old U2 wouldn't either. Luckily for them (and us), the album and songs were phenomenal, and they dragged listeners kicking and screaming into the 21st century 10 years early.

The fact that it sold MUCH MORE than ATYCLB, which was the safest album they ever released, aimed directly at the mainstream, makes it infinitely more impressive. HTDAAB, while slightly more challenging than its predecessor, is a success at triple platinum, but not as impressive as AB's musical coup.


laz

 

[Zoots]

Lazarus... excellent post! Couldn't agree with you more.

Despite taking the biggest risk of their career upto that point, Achtung became a monumental success for U2. Can anyone dare to compare with it, the safe mainstream album that is ATYCLB???

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

How do you know that HTDAAB won't eventually outstrip AB's sales? its only been out a few months and has amassed 6m+ sales already.

I agree that AB selling what it did would be more impressive than HTDAAB selling the same amount or more though, because it was such a change for U2.

 

[U2girl]

LOL, bad albums selling good is a ridicioulus theory. Going by that, Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby would be their worst albums.

Bono didn't start having good and worse lyrics with ATYCLB - some people really need to get over that.

I think sales of the last two albums are more impressive than Achtung Baby.

1) It was far easier for a rock band to be succesful back then, before r&b and pop and rap took over charts,
2) U2 was riding on the sales from the Joshua Tree/Rattle and Hum period, while having drop in sales with Zooropa and Pop when they were making ATYCLB
3) it's virtually impossible for a band in their 40's to be succesful in this ageist society and pop culture
4) it's also really hard to sell big in the downloading era and the slow death of singles' sales

 

[Yahweh]

There has been some good points here keep up the discussion and keep the arguing to a minimum. Opinions are welcome arguements are not

Everybody is entitled to post their opinion...no trashing bashing or otherwise. I have my own opinions but I just want to see what other fans feel about the questions I asked to start the thread.

Another one that comes to mind is this:

- Did you feel that the Elevation tour suffered because of the songs and do you feel the Vertigo tour will suffer the same fate?

 

[Axver]

Did you feel that the Elevation tour suffered because of the songs and do you feel the Vertigo tour will suffer the same fate?

Suffered? I've never seen any talk about the songs causing Elevation to suffer. I'd love to hear theories on this as I simply can't fathom it.

Needless to say, I don't see it being a problem for the Vertigo Tour. The problem for Vertigo is not the recent songs, but how U2 deal with the overwhelming catalogue of past songs to choose from.

 

[bathiu]

How do you know that HTDAAB won't eventually outstrip AB's sales? its only been out a few months and has amassed 6m+ sales already.

Actualy it's around 9.5mln (and not counting U.S... but I'm not sure)
After the tour I'm sure this album will be close to AB in sales (outside of U.S. of course). It might even make much more, because it's close to AB already.

I realy don't understand why people give so much faith in everything from "Peeling off those Dollar Bills" forum and not from the band...
The numbers in "Peeling off those Dollar Bills" are from U.S.&Canada, only a few European countries, Australia, Japan and very few countries from South America...
Question!: is that the whole world???
----------------

BTW - did you notice the huge piece of BS from U2girl?
I think we should give her an award for all her "theories"...

 

[bathiu]

Suffered? I've never seen any talk about the songs causing Elevation to suffer. I'd love to hear theories on this as I simply can't fathom it.

...well, it probably depends from what POV it might've suffered...

Listening to Boston and Slane I always skip Elevation, Stuck In a Moment and New York (from Boston)...
Looking that way I would say that "ElevationTour suffered because of the songs..." they (maybe) were fun during the tour, but I don't think they'll win the battle with time...

 

[Axver]

BTW - did you notice the huge piece of BS from U2girl?
I think we should give her an award for all her "theories"...

I know the two of you don't get along, but I think that comment was rather unprovoked as I feel U2girl raised some legitimate points.

She is quite right to say that it is harder for U2 to sell albums now than it ever has been. Illegal downloading is rampant, rap/R&B/hip-hop and Britney-pop dominates the charts, and today's popular culture can be very ageist and discriminatory against older acts. I'd love to see the ages of the artists behind all of the albums on the charts when U2 debuted at #1 last year. I bet U2 are at least 10-15 years older than the average, probably more.

In that sense, the success of HTDAAB is absolutely remarkable. So yes, I agree with her that the current success may just be more impressive than Achtung Baby, simply because it's a whole lot harder for U2 to sell in this current climate.

 

[Axver]

...well, it probably depends from what POV it might've suffered...

Listening to Boston and Slane I always skip Elevation, Stuck In a Moment and New York (from Boston)...
Looking that way I would say that "ElevationTour suffered because of the songs..." they (maybe) were fun during the tour, but I don't think they'll win the battle with time...

See, I think this is personal taste. Skipping certain songs doesn't mean the tour itself was harmed in any way. I want to know what is being meant by 'suffered'. Tour quality? Tour sales? Band performance? Fan reaction? Because Elevation was a high-quality, high-selling tour popular with the fans, featuring the most variable sets since Lovetown and vocals that were better than the Popmart era.