Global warming, fair trade, debt relief, aid to Africa...whew what else...

[Ralphie]

This is a continuation of a post started under News: Noel Gallagher Attacks U2's Bono... the beginning of the thread is there on page 6 if anyone wants to read it.

Posted by Purpleoscar:

Okay where do I start? I think I'll have to include other subjects to tie things together like Bono's support on Global Warming initiatives.

I'm sorry I don't remember where I saw that article about the DATA guy saying "keep writing it off." I think it was years ago when Bono started with the campaign with DATA and I think it was probably a conservative article from National Review where a lady was trying to argue with Bono at the time. It must have been a long time ago because I remember Bono not being criticised much at that point and only people like the lead singer of Blur were saying "I know Bono has a good heart, but just put your point of view in your lyrics." Otherwise the mainstream critics had Bono off the radar. I think they underestimated his popularity and ability to talk to politicians on either side of the political spectrum. But I remember it because it made me so I should save HTML's but I rarely get the opportunity to talk to more informed people on the internet that like subjects like these.

I can show some links about some of the things I'm talking about here.

For those interested in seeing a critique on Fair Trade, this article illustrates many points I have on economics.

http://www.iea.org.uk/record.jsp?ty...sArticle&ID=179

For those interested in a critique on alarmist science I would suggest Bjorn Lomborg who wrote the Skeptical Environmentalist. He was attacked by the scientific community much like Galileo was by the church when he bit by bit pulled apart bad statistics in environmentalist claims and opened the door for the average person to be able to read on how scientific research gets funded in the first place, and how important alarmism is in getting that funding. The book may be dull in parts because statistics are only so interesting for many people. A good portion of the book is just bibliography. BTW the scientific group that attacked Bjorn actually apologized to him because they couldn't find any malfeasence in his book. They said his book was unscientific when The Skeptical Environmentalist is really about statistics. There are no scientific experiments in it. It's a critique on bad statistics, and more importantly he uses the statistical resources that many alarmists quote from and shows how many raw stats get "massaged" before they reach the airwaves.

http://www.lomborg.com/radiotv.htm

Some of the links are old because videos don't stay on websites for very long but I think many still work or have transcripts.

He's also a part of the Copenhagen consensus,

(http://www.copenhagenconsensus.com/Default.aspx?ID=158)

which measures the actual costs of different objectives to make the world more habitable and healthy. I think people who agree with Bono should look into this. I would rather have money spent on some of their cheaper projects that actually save more lives than spend on Kyoto which really achieves little CO2 reductions, and costs enormously.

Probably the most eye opening speech I read was from none other than Michael Crichton, who I didn't know was interested in this subject.

http://www.michaelcrichton.com/spee...complexity.html

I don't have too much problem with spent money on HIV drugs because of the crisis they are in, but again you have to say what do Africans think about HIV? Many people believe that having sex with a virgin will remove the disease. There are many other beliefs we find superstitious in our western cultures but the political correctness of not openly talking about sexual behaviour is driving me nuts. I'm not a religious person but I like a lot of what the Catholic church was doing in Uganda to get the people to understand the need for abstinance. Uganda started reducing their HIV infections from their high rate of infection from a change in sexual behaviour in the younger generation. I'm hoping it's continuing downward. I don't know what the current stats are, but it always comes down to people's choices. Many African countries are not really dealing with this problem at all. If there was a cure I could see, but life enhancing drugs are really a band-aid for living a clean life. The new generation should look to abstaining before marriage.

Oh here's a website talking about Uganda and their improvements:

http://www.sustainabletimes.ca/arti...idsinafrica.htm

At least there is more communication in that country and trying to reduce the stigma of the disease which I would suspect must be truly frightful.

If you add global warming, AIDS funding, infrastructure, debt write offs you get a situation where the bill adds up against our standard of living. I have dreams to. I want to get married, get a mortgage and fund my children's schooling. Can I do all that and still save the world? In Canada where I'm from we have,(like in Europe), an aging population with few children. That spells more taxes for us. We have limited resources so lets aim at what we can realistically do.

I think I'm just results orientated and when you get that way you tend to want to look at small half measures that can improve things more and more so people can do things by themselves. I find these solutions work better and are more financially feasible, and worst of all they are the solutions that don't get on TV much.

After Ireland entered into the European Union and got some transfer payments (one of many reasons they are much more wealthy than today) and especially had lowered their tax rates, Irish started investing their new found wealth and business profits in land and housing and started increasing their capital. I thought long and hard about it and found that history constantly teaches us that we humans don't change much personality wise even if our scientific understanding improves.

I remember my history teacher talking blithely about the beginnings of markets and free movement of labour. During the beginning of the renaissance there was a black plague that killed so many people that peasants were in short supply. What happened next was that lords would often bid for the remaining peasants (slaves) and this allowed a premium that gave workers the ability to quit and go to other "employers" because of their demand. Eventually that led to the bourgeosie middle class types. Unfortunately my professor said that many middle class types who moved to the "new rich" tried to spend their new wealth like the rich, keeping up with the Joneses, and found they couldn't stay at their status for long. Also the poor tried to emulate them as well with more disasterous consequences. The lesson seems that putting away a portion of your earnings for the future and giving an inheritance to newer generations is how we got as wealthy as we are but if we lose that understanding we'll be the people who the Irish say "go from shirt collar to shirt collar in 3 generations."

I think there will be more equality in society if people invest more. No matter if you smell bad or look funny no banker will prevent you from making an investment. Anybody with an income can achieve it with self-discipline.

Wow, my posts are always longer than I want them to be, but there it is.

 

[Ralphie]

Ok, I'm back!

I'm going to have to admit that I really can't speak much about Global Warming. Maybe I shouldn't be proud to admit this, but it's not a topic on which I consider myself really educated. All I know about Global Warming is what you see in the papers. I know that some people think it's science and some people think it's science fiction, and that's about it. I'm a little confused as to why you brought it up though (I'm not trying to be snide, I mean that in a genuine way). Bono has not really been involved in global warming work as far a I know, with the possible exception of one upcoming concert.

As far as debt relief, I'm trying to get a better feel for whether you do not like the idea of debt relief, or you don't like the idea or forgiving the same debts over and over again. I know you mentioned an article where someone from DATA said something to that effect early on. Because I've never seen that repeated, I'm going to assume that this is not Bono's current stance (I've never heard him ask for debt relief in that way when lobbying for it), and that even if it is, it's something of a moot point because there's almost no way governments would go along with that. On the broader topic of debt relief in general - yes, there is the risk that it will amount to something like a 'poor credit history' for those countries, in terms of people being more hesitant to work with them again because they were unable to pay off their debts the first time. On the other hand, Africa has so many issues that most businesses are skeptical about working with them anyways. If debt relief can eventually help these countries by taking away the burden of paying enormous debts back during times when they are not making money themselves, thus stifling most hope of economic growth or infrastructure development, then in the long run it could lead to a more stable economy.

On the whole fair trade issue...I'm going to summarize what I think your argument is based on the link you gave, so feel free to correct me here: Fair trade is based more on people trying to 'do the right thing' than it is on traditional market forces, such as businesses like Wal-mart doing what makes the most sense in terms of profit. Because of this, business established under fair trade is not going to be stable in the long run.

I think my argument would be that individual fair trade companies such as Edun are not going to be mutually exclusive to more traditional businesses. It's one thing if you're talking about fair trade law that affect all business practices in the country, but simply establishing one business that the owners run according to guidelines they feel are ethical is not going to keep others from running their businesses according to what will maximize profit. In addition, when it comes to Africa, a big part of the problem is that very few companies are showing interest in building new operations there, so Edun does something simply by bringing it's production into Africa. Again, I stated my opinions on clothing factories earlier, so I understand that the issue is murky.

Again, hope you don't mind me moving your post!

 

[purpleoscar]

Moving my post is okay.

I think what people are saying in the economic community is that if you interfere in the economy with "fixed prices" you interfere with the natural price system that happens with supply and demand. Money represents the value of the supply versus the demand of the products. Since subdividing money is better than bartering for goods we use money. There are many examples out there in real life. For example. Many cities today still do barbaric formulas to bring rent down in big expensive cities with rent ceilings. They do it to help the poor and such but if increases in costs to run a rental property need to be offset by increased rent charges. If that is blocked with a ceiling then you get what you get in big cities. Homeless people and empty abandoned buildings. Empty buildings? Homeless people?

Companies that survive at Fair Trade get people to pay more to afford these extra benefits for workers. These increased costs take money away from other jobs that could exist and create more barriers to start a business. You got to understand that Marxists who think that profit is evil have been disproven a long time ago. Marxists believe profit is exploitation of the worker and that the total "rent" meaning profit in today's terminology is "surplus value" that should 100% go to the worker. People who aren't total communists but like increased social welfare under democracy believe to a certain extent to those values. Now imagine you are a business owner. You borrowed other people's money from the bank and you are using your life savings to start your business. Is there a risk for a loss? Yes. Shouldn't profits be there to reward the effort you put and the risk of loss you're enduring to even start a business? I think so, yes. Running businesses can be a fragile thing as many don't make it their first year. Why would we want to increase the cost of doing business to a bunch of people who have MANY barriers as it is? Certainly unions in the west are afraid of cheap competition so they say. "Meet our standards and we will freely trade with you." Good luck!

I agree there would be job losses with cheap labor in Africa taking jobs here but cheaper labor creates more profits and these profits are either spent, put in the bank to lent to other enterprises, or reinvested. All these things create new jobs to replace the ones that are lost. I think governments and companies should spend some money on retraining, because as technology increases in complexity it's necessary to make the transition for people. To buffer this individuals need to be capitalists as well and invest their personal surpluses so there is a cushion for hardships and shocks that come with change. Free trade won't replace all businesses anyways because of these pressures so I don't worry much about it.

When it comes to debt I think I can sum it up simply. Not paying back what you owe is simply us giving countries money. How do we get our loaned money to be spent properly when we don't have jurisdiction to do so leaves only one choice. "Fix your finances or we won't give you anything." If I have 10,000 dollars and you do and you invest 1,000 and spend 9,000 on necessities and I take all my 10,000 and snort cocaine we won't be equal in society will we? If I can't take a gun to someone's head to make them apply their finances right then the only choice is to say: "Fix your finances or we won't give you anything." Only then will a great majority of people say. "Oh. I guess I have to do things myself." Feeling sorry for yourself on planet Earth will not solve the problem. It never has.3,000,000 people came off the welfare roll in the U.S. because of the Contract with America. Tough love. It's like having insurance on dying or insurance on life choices. You can over insure yourself in personal finances as governments can over insure others with programs. If countries don't believe our ultimatums that we will stop funding them, then they won't listen to our threats and just treat it like we are bluffing. Which we are.

When it comes to Edun. Fashion could be under fair trade for a while because there are rich people who will pay a premium for anything that is for celebrities, but to clothe the entire population the price has to be realistic, unless Mrs Bono likes losses?

Back to work

 

[ntalwar]

The book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is related to the African debt issue.
Part of the review on amazon.com states:

Perkins writes that his economic projections cooked the books Enron-style to convince foreign governments to accept billions of dollars of loans from the World Bank and other institutions to build dams, airports, electric grids, and other infrastructure he knew they couldn't afford. The loans were given on condition that construction and engineering contracts went to U.S. companies. Often, the money would simply be transferred from one bank account in Washington, D.C., to another one in New York or San Francisco. The deals were smoothed over with bribes for foreign officials, but it was the taxpayers in the foreign countries who had to pay back the loans. When their governments couldn't do so, as was often the case, the U.S. or its henchmen at the World Bank or International Monetary Fund would step in and essentially place the country in trusteeship, dictating everything from its spending budget to security agreements and even its United Nations votes. It was, Perkins writes, a clever way for the U.S. to expand its "empire" at the expense of Third World citizens. While at times he seems a little overly focused on conspiracies, perhaps that's not surprising considering the life he's led.

It makes one wonder why poor countries were given such generous credit lines in the first place.

 

[Ralphie]

Ok, here is my looong response...apologies for the length. And let me say in advance, Purpleoscar, that I respect your opinions even if I disagree - these topics are so multi-faceted that there are a million and one different aspects to consider.

I tend to agree that fair trade is not going to be a huge force for change, simply because scale-wise it's just not there. It's a small program being carried out by a limited number of interested people, and I don't see that changing, honestly. And really, I think the big issue on the table should be getting trade established, period, and making sure that countries like Africa are not kept out of the market due to the legislation of other more developed countries. As far as comparing fair trade to Marxism, I do feel compelled to point out that farmers in the US benefit from subsidies and minimum price regulation, and certainly no one thinks of the US as a socialist country. Agriculture is a volatile market very prone to instability, and generally some safe guards are put into place for that.

In terms of individual fair trade companies, for example, those that sell clothing or housewares, I am fairly certain that these companies are making a profit and not running a business simply to be good guys. Yes, I'm sure if that's the line of work you choose it's because you want to make a difference, but you also have to make a living. If you're not making a profit you'll go out of business. I disagree with the idea that fair trade sales take away money from other jobs that could exist - that's only true if you assume all income comes from people buying goods, and that the amount they will spend on those African goods is fixed and will not go up if more quality goods are available. There's also the trade-off in that when workers are paid higher salaries they have more disposable income, meaning they will be buying more food, are more likely to pay for medical services, send their children to school where they will need a teacher, etc. All of this is conducive to creating jobs. I agree with you on the point that fair trade can create barriers in terms of other businesses coming in - if Wal-mart thinks about opening a factory in a country and everyone in the area expects fair trade wages and benefits, then yes, the likelihood of them starting a business there goes down. On the other hand, that would indicate an unemployment rate high enough for people to feel secure in turning that type of job down, not likely in the near future.

On to the 'tough love' topic - I think we will probably just have to agree to disagree here. Essentially you think this is what will work for Africa, and I do not. I respect your point of view, and the fact that neither one of us has a crystal ball that we can look into and say "Ok, show me what happens in Africa if we tried..." so there's no way to know for sure. The reason I disagree with this line of thought and in comparing life in Africa to people in America coming off welfare is that, IMO, the situation in Africa has gotten so out of control that some outside help is going to be necessary in order for people to gain an economic foothold. Once they have a foothold then sure, it will take time, they won't be a rich country in a decade, but they will be in a place where growth is at least possible. Unfortunately Africa was a sort of 'perfect storm' of disadvantages. To name a few - poor infrastructure, difficult geography and climate, disease, a history of colonization, and laws in other parts of the world that make it difficult for them to enter the trade market.

I know when a lot of people think Africa, they think "We are the World," Ethiopia, 1985, tons of grains rotting in storehouses because of warlords and whatnot. I think it would surprise people (I know it surprised me) to know that a lot of the 'help' directed at Africa has been of the 'tough love' variety - insisting that they cut their budgets in order to make debt payments, attempting to privatize business, etc. The problem, again, is that in order to spend less, these governments are sacrificing health, education, roads - all the things they would need to be successful. It's a downward spiral.

 

[purpleoscar]

Well Ralphie, I respect your candor and ability to take different points of view without getting tired or irritated. Politics takes mental stamina to avoid pure sloganeering and name calling which both sides are guilty of.

When it comes to Marxism and America I think I better clarify. There are Marxists everywhere in the world and they exist in America, though more in media, and schools. Government workers and unions also have enormous influence by Marxism, and it can't be underestimated. They may not like communism per se but they like many of Karl Marx's critiques on Capitalism in his book Das Capital. Many of those forces who are protectionist aren't all Marxists, but the root of a lot of those ideas are there. I think my previous comment on profit and Marx's idea and role of it being malignant is exactly what labour movements believe in. I recommend you read Das Capital, because you pretty much will understand many humanities professors from University, and labour unions points of view. Also the labour theory of value is explained there and it unfortunately is still very popular. Bascially the idea that we can measure true prices based on labour hours worked. Set price times the number of labour hours. I think management can go over the top sometimes because of human nature and because some people can't handle power without turning into Sauron's and out of control individuals, but that's another conversation we could get into later. Unions are need sometimes for worker's health reasons, and if a country can afford better standards then by all means have safe workers. The rich countries don't have the money to lift all the poor world out of poverty without impoverishing ourselves but if the poor world started to build their own wealth they can build their own standards in time when they become wealthy. I think my main point is that they need as much production as they possibly can get.

When you say that people will have more disposable income you need to understand that paying people more than what they will actually command in the real market actually has to come at the expense of other workers, and is really a "fixed price". This is where some of the unionization's bad side can show. It's called "green belting" by economists. In order to command higher wages there is always pressure to reduce the amount of workers allowed to be hired even if the workload increases for unionized workers or new technologies are not taken advantage of as fast. This happens anywhere there are unions. That's why unemployment tends to be pretty sharp in countries like Germany where you basically are unionized when you have a job and when you aren't unionized you are probably unemployed. The idea of having more people working based on self interest isn't perfect but it creates more productivity which is exactly where the wealth comes from. Disposable income only comes from the country creating a surplus of food and basic necesscities that can be traded for other goods that aren't necessarily attached to basic survival. They need to build wealth before they can afford higher standards.

In regards to your assertion that poor infrastructure and chaos is caused by the west and their "tough love" stance. I think the west is just in asking for countries to repay their debts when the west is divying up the payments. There has to be an incentive to get foreign investment in Africa and Africa paying their debts is the way investors can feel comfortable to invest there. Investors are risk averse to countries that don't pay their debts. Who would buy African bonds? The entire value of a currency is when there is trust and backing. In fact an economy can't really run properly without laws that defend morality and fair play. Trust is a big factor. Certainly I would have to go back to the beginning and say that Africa needs democracy and private property rights before anyone can invest or save in Africa. That is certainly step 1. I just believe our interventions are only band-aids and Africans need to have their own leadership willing to create countries in the western models, which sadly many find to be racist and many cultures don't want to change. I believe in spending money on HIV prevention education because that can actually save lives of the people who are ignorant and want to heed modern understandings of disease prevention and, most importantly, help build new generations of people who can work and live. I think the Copenhagen consensus gets the balance right. There are things we can do but we are all muddled about which things will do the most good for the most efficient use of our tax dollars. I think we are on some agreement here.

Let's pray that in our lifetimes we see some success stories in Africa.

 

[ntalwar]

I think the west is just in asking for countries to repay their debts when the west is divying up the payments. There has to be an incentive to get foreign investment in Africa and Africa paying their debts is the way investors can feel comfortable to invest there. Investors are risk averse to countries that don't pay their debts.

How do you propose they pay these massive debts? Where will the cash come from? There's a figure I've seen that something like half a trillion dollars was lent to African nations over 30 years.
A lot of this went to shady devlopment projects using American contractors and to corrupt leaders. It's the poor taxpayers that have to come up with the debt payments - sort of like asking a homeless person to cough up a million dollars.

 

[U2Kitten]

Has anyone noticed that the more the US does for 'poor' countries, the worse the standard of living gets here for the AMERICAN poor? Look at all the outsourcing and how a lot of people have lost good paying jobs. "Fair" trade hurts people here. While I'm not saying it's a bad thing to help other countries, no one should do it at the expense of their own. Would you give to charity until you couldn't feed your own kids? It's not right. And remember, it's never the 'rich' Americans who hurt, it's always the ones who can least afford it. You end up with more unemployed, or underemployed making too little to live on, farmers going bust, and yeah, more homeless and even more- charity cases. To me all the rich folk talking this stuff really don't have a clue what life is actually like for the average struggling American (like me)

 

[purpleoscar]

How do you propose they pay these massive debts? Where will the cash come from? There's a figure I've seen that something like half a trillion dollars was lent to African nations over 30 years.
A lot of this went to shady devlopment projects using American contractors and to corrupt leaders. It's the poor taxpayers that have to come up with the debt payments - sort of like asking a homeless person to cough up a million dollars.

The problem is if you write off the debts what's to stop them from borrowing too much again? Where does the overborrowing start? If you know the answer to that then write a book and join politics to get it done. Everyone is blaming the west and nobody wants to look at what African nations are actually doing. Debts have been written off in the past and then new debts accumulated back to the same position.

 

[U2Kitten]

What happens to real people when they get into debt? They have to pay it, or they go bankrupt, or they get sued. Once they've gone bankrupt, and they get right back into debt, they get their wages garnished for over twice the amount they originally owed with more interest piling up every day. These people are most often poor and can't even pay the bills they need to live, like food and utilities and mortgage or rent, much less hundreds of bucks a month to empty debt that will never go down and gets you nothing for your money and is much more than you ever actually borrowed. But you know what? NOBODY GIVES A SHIT THEY JUST WANT THE MONEY. I know. It happened to me. Why not forgive my debt? I could make a much better life for my kids if I didn't have to pay it! Yeah debt sure drags you down and it sucks. But why let some off the hook if real people are having to suffer for it?

 

[Liesje]

Didn't know Africans weren't considered "real" people.....

 

[corianderstem]

I think that's an unequal argument because you're comparing forgiving a country's debt with forgiving an individual's personal debt.

I think that's a completely different topic/argument, although the widening gap between the wealthy and the poor in the US is a scary and real thing.

 

[U2Kitten]

Didn't know Africans weren't considered "real" people.....

Oh please. I am talking about the reality of INDIVIDUALS instead of a collective country, but mostly I'm talking about the reality of people in each of the countries being asked to give money to other countries (even if indirectly through taxes or money that could be given to social programs in their own countries). No mostly I am angry at the label that the US is a 'rich' country and therefore has lots of cash to spread around while 'real' individuals in the population are in the same situation as governments. My debt, and that of other individuals in the US, hurt us the way debt hurts whole countries but I am trying to explain how it translates to real life. EVERYONE in debt cannot get their head above water and is only dragged under again. I guess I kind of resent all the sympathy for collective countries who have done it to themselves time and time again while there is none for us individuals who are buried in debt for the same reasons too. Regardless, all the lectures in the world aren't going to help you once you're down.

Look at all the "Payday Loan" places. There are about six in the two mile stretch that is the relatively small city I live in. They are capitalizing on people being constantly broke, always promising money they don't have before they even make it. They will give it to you early, for a fee, and then you owe them. Modern day loan sharks. They will own you for life once you get into the trap. That is one thing I've never done, but I know people who are down to them for thousands with more interst piling up every day and paychecks gone before they are earned. And don't even get me started on credit cards. The gov't has relaxed all the regulations that used to keep interest and fees reasonable, they can now do whatever they want to you and if you can't pay, they'll take your check or even your car. And nobody cares.

And mostly I resent the 'rich' man (corporate world, capitalism) the very thing that makes the world's economy run is the very thing that is destroying millions all over the world. The rich get richer by making a profit on debt, and the poor cannot save themselves once they're in too deep. Why not let us all off the hook? Just because me, and millions of other Americans live in a 'rich' country shouldn't make us in a different category.

"The percentage you're paying is too high priced while you're living beyond all your means, and the man in the suit has just bought a new car with the profit he made from your dreams..."

--Traffic, Low Spark

In the long run there is something very wrong with the entire world. And no, we cannot save it, not unless all the rich (and I mean millionaires like Bono too) give large portions of their fortunes to dig the poor out of their holes. And this is NOT going to happen. Personally I could NOT sit there with a hundred million in the bank knowing how others suffer because I've been there and I've seen it myself. Ten million will set anyone for life. Anyone who holds onto more than that is IMO a greedy asshole.

Debt relief? How about this? EVERYONE in debt gets off the hook. It's the interest and late fees that kill you anyway. It's what's buried me, and what's continuing to kill poor countries. And it's what the multimillionaire is getting rich off of (not Bono but businesses) Until this is stopped nothing will ever improve. And it's not going to change because those with the money are not going to change a thing to hurt themselves.

And Lies, aren't you yourself down several thousand in the hole for student loans? You should know exactly what I mean.

 

[Liesje]

And Lies, aren't you yourself down several thousand in the hole for student loans? You should know exactly what I mean.

Several? Try 100K in the hole, and counting... Ironically, part of my debt is because I went to Africa to study development. Kinda blows a bigass hole in your theory, no?

But no, I really don't get what you mean b/c the concept of foreign aid is pretty far removed from personal spending. The debt we've incurred we've done on our own watches; the debt that cripples Africa's economies was incurred before the lifetimes of most of their population. Sorry, I just don't see correlation other than an excuse to vent.

The US is not that "rich" of a country. We aren't even in the top 10 on the latest HDI.

 

[ntalwar]

The problem is if you write off the debts what's to stop them from borrowing too much again? Where does the overborrowing start?

That's easy. Don't advance them such a generous credit line in the first place. Who benefits from keeping them in debt? The West does. Banks and contractors earn a profit, as do corrupt leaders. And the West has influence over them as their creditor. A lot of these projects that are financed are boondoggles using Western contractors.

 

[rihannsu]

The problem is if you write off the debts what's to stop them from borrowing too much again? Where does the overborrowing start? If you know the answer to that then write a book and join politics to get it done. Everyone is blaming the west and nobody wants to look at what African nations are actually doing. Debts have been written off in the past and then new debts accumulated back to the same position.

If you want a good understanding of the Debt situation and the corruption on both sides of the issue, foreign governments as well as the lenders, read "The Debt Threat" by Noreena Hertz. It give a good comprehensive explanation of how things got where they are and gives some suggestions for getting out of it.

What irritates me is that people seem to think that Bono is campaigning for debt to be simply wiped out with no restrictions and that is simply not true. DATA stands for Debt, Aid, Trade for Africa but he continually reminds people that it also stands for Democracy, Accountability, Transparency, from Africa. Both the debt relief and the aid that Bono campaigns for are intended to be granted only with the contigency of knowing where the money is going. Bono has already mentioned countries that have had aid monies withdrawn because they couldn't see where the money is going. A lot of effort has been put into seeing that aid funds are spent efficiently. Is the track record perfect yet? Probably not but it is much better than it was and continues to improve.

As for comparing the poor in America with the poor in Africa, it just doesn't work. I have struggle financially all of my life, but compared to the poverty in Africa I am rich. Even the poorest in America are better off than the poor there. Bono has never claimed that we could wipe out all poverty but he talks about EXTREME poverty. There is a major difference there. Just in terms of disease alone we cannot afford to simply stand by and let Africa go down in flames because what happens there WILL affect the rest of the world.

Dana

 

[U2Kitten]

As for comparing the poor in America with the poor in Africa, it just doesn't work. I have struggle financially all of my life, but compared to the poverty in Africa I am rich. Even the poorest in America are better off than the poor there.
Dana

This is another issue I want to address. This is true, but you need to consider that the entire standard of living and culture are different so you can't directly compare. In some of those places they don't even have electricity and certainly don't care about the things we have in the US so it doesn't matter as much to them. All they want is shelter, clothes and medicine.

But in the US, when you're poor, you are struggling to survive in a society and economy that caters to those who have much more. The prices and cost of living are very high because of this. While minimum wage may be a lot of money over there, it's not even a living wage here. It's hard raising kids who see other kids getting cool stuff and we can't afford it. And no, telling them there are kids in third world nations who are worse off doesn't help. You have to 'pro rate' or use some kind of 'per capita'. You can't just say, oh because they're making 8 cents a day five bucks an hour is a fortune. It's not to us, and we have to live here, not there. Please take that into consideration.

 

[Jamila]

Thank you, Dana - your concise and coherent understanding of the issues that Africa faces is heartening and impressive.


Could I ask the original poster a question: what is your purpose in this thread because I got lost somewhere in reading your posts.


I would like to know what your BASIC contention is regarding these issues.


Thank you.

 

[Liesje]

In some of those places they don't even have electricity and certainly don't care about the things we have in the US so it doesn't matter as much to them. All they want is shelter, clothes and medicine.

1) The have electricity in many, many places. Most places have electricity but not as many have running water. Many people cannot afford electricity, or the city only has it on for certain hours of the day, but it is pretty widely available.

2) They care about the same things we do: ensuring a better future for our children, making sure they are educated and healthy. These things have absolutely nothing to do with whether someone is black or white or whether they live in a rural village or a major city.

3) They are not primitive savages that care exclusively about shelter, clothes and medicine.

It's really crazy to be making these assumptions about an entire continent of people.

And at any rate, this isn't about us and our standard of living. I really don't see how this has any connection. We don't have the same types of governments, political structures, health care an education systems, infrastructure, religions, etc. Nothing is comparable.

 

[Babydoll]

This is another issue I want to address. This is true, but you need to consider that the entire standard of living and culture are different so you can't directly compare. In some of those places they don't even have electricity and certainly don't care about the things we have in the US so it doesn't matter as much to them. All they want is shelter, clothes and medicine.

Excuse me, but I take offence to this post. I am from East Africa, Tanzania to be precise and I think your comment is very ignorant and uncalled for. We DO have electricity there, and yes, the lifestyle I had back there living with my parents was a whole lot better than the lifestyle I have now, being a student in the US. It may come as a huge surprise to you, but we aren't primitive in that we only care for food shelter and clothing. You can't just stereotype and say people in Africa are starving savages, ok????? We do get everything that is available here, and yes inequality occurs everywhere in the globe between societies.

Please refrain from making such degrading comments about Africa.... if I showed my friends and family what you typed, you'd be a laughing-stock.

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

Seriously, U2kitten you need to lay off of the assumptions you have made here with no experiences or facts to back up what you have said. You have offended two people here who certainly can make well informed opinions here because of their experiences in Africa. Babydoll having been from there and Lies, who has went to Africa and spent a good bit of time there as well. You might want to think before you type/post here next time. It seems you certainly have a way of offending people around here just about everytime you post. So don't start saying oh everyone is attacking me.. It just seems you don't take the time to really think about what you post before you post it. Take some caution, think of others here in that maybe they may take offence.

 

[U2Girl1978]

Seriously, U2kitten you need to lay off of the assumptions you have made here with no experiences or facts to back up what you have said. You have offended two people here who certainly can make well informed opinions here because of their experiences in Africa. Babydoll having been from there and Lies, who has went to Africa and spent a good bit of time there as well. You might want to think before you type/post here next time. It seems you certainly have a way of offending people around here just about everytime you post. So don't start saying oh everyone is attacking me.. It just seems you don't take the time to really think about what you post before you post it. Take some caution, think of others here in that maybe they may take offence.

I am very sure there are many others who would be appalled at what she wrote. There are several others on this site who have gone to Africa or are from there.

Obviously she has no clue.

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

I am very sure there are many others who would be appalled at what she wrote. There are several others on this site who have gone to Africa or are from there.

Obviously she has no clue.

Yeah you are right there are many others here who know what is really going on there and have the experience to back that up.

 

[U2Kitten]

Excuse me, but I take offence to this post. I am from East Africa, Tanzania to be precise and I think your comment is very ignorant and uncalled for. We DO have electricity there,

Look, I am one of the first to say that branding the poor sickly kids in mud huts as "Africa" is about as fair as showing some starving family in a tumbled down shack in Appalachia and calling it "America." I have posted this several times, I guess you never read that, eh? Just a couple days ago I even posted an article about African leaders complaining about the same thing! What I was talking about is the way people say that because poor in America are better off than poor in other countries they are somehow not worthy of any pity or consideration and should shut up.

You know if I said what I really thought of all the holier than thou people here and all the ones who say I 'don't know what I'm talking about' I'm afraid I'd not only be banned my heart would explode from the pressure of letting it all out. YOU don't know as much as you think either, none of you do. What I have stated about the poor in America IS TRUE because I have lived it and lived around others who have been even worse than me- people of all colors and nationalities and backgrounds. My case is that it's unfair to disregard all of us! My gosh the way you've trashed me is shameful. I poured my heart out and put my life on public display and all some of you can do is insult me. YOU don't know me and YOU don't know what you're talking about! I have posted what I see and know for sure from where I stand. It needs to be considered too in the entire picture.

 

[U2Girl1978]

U2Kitten, you truly need a break from these forums. Seriously.

 

[U2Kitten]

The bottom line is, all this stuff mentioned in the thread title hurts the poor in the US. You can like that or not or accept it or not but it's true.

I really believe the best way to send aid to other countries is through humanitarian organizations and not governments. Some of their governments are corrupt and we know ours is inept and unfair in lots of ways. Of course, in order to get the aid you'd have to depend on the rich coughing up the money, and most of them aren't going to do that.

 

[waynetravis]

This is another issue I want to address. This is true, but you need to consider that the entire standard of living and culture are different so you can't directly compare. In some of those places they don't even have electricity and certainly don't care about the things we have in the US so it doesn't matter as much to them. All they want is shelter, clothes and medicine.

you make it sound like these people are cave dwellers.
of course they care about the things we do. they want to ensure whats best for their children so in turn their children will have a brighter and healthier future.

 

[U2Girl1978]

Maybe, just maybe, if our president didn't have his head so far up his fucking ass we wouldn't have so many issues in the US. But you know, that's another thread altogether.

 

[U2Kitten]

you make it sound like these people are cave dwellers.
of course they care about the things we do. they want to ensure whats best for their children so in turn their children will have a brighter and healthier future.

READ THE LONG POST I JUST MADE!!!! I ALWAYS say the whole continent isn't like that, and I get angry when people say that! I also recently posted an article about even! So shut up about it already! I was talking about ONLY the ones in need that get talked about all the time by Bono. If the shoe fits, wear it, if not, toss it. Same with what I said about Americans, not all are poor and in debt and struggling but lots are.

 

[U2Kitten]

Maybe, just maybe, if our president didn't have his head so far up his fucking ass we wouldn't have so many issues in the US. But you know, that's another thread altogether.

That is very true, and what has been spent destroying, rebuilding and redestroying Iraq could probably save the poor everywhere! But it's not going to happen!

And speaking of debt, NO country is further in debt than the US. And nobody is going to forgive it.