For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

[Michael Griffiths]

For all the crying, for the criticizing, some of it warrented, some of it not, but none of it all together valid in the grand scheme of things.....

The kind of power U2 wields right now....when they are up on stage and moving individuals into a collectivity, creating a mass bliss, getting 30,000 people to all agree on one thing during 'Where The Streets Have No Name', just for example, we must remember....

U2 don't need the money. They simply want to write songs in a room again, get away from the fractured bits and pieces that technology brought to them. It's the BIG songs now, in BOLD, in black and white. The universe is said to be all very simple. We look to complicate things. U2 have come to understand this basic truth. They don't do it to sell millions of records. They do it because no one else can do it. No one else has everyone listening. Wouldn't you make it loud and clear and precise if you had everyone's attention? May as well make it bold, big, and obvious. No other band right now can introduce us to ourselves in this way. No other band has the option to do that right now.

I don't consider that selling out at all. I consider it living up to bill.

 

[Zoots]

The kind of power U2 wields right now....when they are up on stage and moving individuals into a collectivity, creating a mass bliss, getting 30,000 people to all agree on one thing during 'Where The Streets Have No Name', just for example

They did all that between 1987 and 1997 too!!! while at the same time writing un-compromising albums... not over-produced ones with guitar riffs that are more 80s wannabes than stand-alone classics.

 

[starvinmarvin]

I don't think that u2 has ever made any qualms about wanting to sell as many albums as possible. It's no secret at all. It never has been, and it never will be.

Some people think Vertigo and Beautiful Day are sell-outs, but I see it a different way. If "selling out" is the band being themselves, and writing songs that resonate with as many people as possible, then they are guilty as charged. But that's not what selling out is. Selling out is compromising yourself and your music to make money. U2 has never done this.

 

[Niceman]

Yeah, U2 want to sell a gazillion albums. The question is why? Is money their main motivation. No, obviously it isn't. They want to be relevant. They want to move people, effect the way you think, the way the world moves.

They want to be the song, the song you hear - IN YOUR HEAD! BOOM-CHA!

How To Dismantle is my favorite U2 album, Pop is my second favorite.

 

[LJT]

Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

They did all that between 1987 and 1997 too!!! while at the same time writing un-compromising albums... not over-produced ones with guitar riffs that are more 80s wannabes than stand-alone classics.

The only two songs on HTDAAB that sounds particularly like 80s U2 to me are COBL and Yahweh

I actually view post 98 U2 as having its own kinda distinct feel and style, they are as different to me as 90s U2 is from 80s U2, but they are only really different to each other on the surface of things..i do not think U2s dreams or goals or ideals have ever changed at all over the years, just some different tactics...

 

[Zoots]

How To Dismantle is my favorite U2 album, Pop is my second favorite.

Wow... never heard anyone say that before! or even in the same breath!

 

[Axver]

We can always count on Michael Griffiths for a quality post.

 

[Zoots]

Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

The only two songs on HTDAAB that sounds particularly like 80s U2 to me are COBL and Yahweh

What about the guitar part in Sometimes when he sings 'and it's you when I look in the mirror'? The first time I heard it, it instantly reminded me of 80s U2! And what about the intro to Miracle Drug? Jick once made a mix of WOWY and Miracle Drug and the intros went together so well, it was scary! Go ahead, play both intros together and tell me MD isn't longing for WOWY/past glories! Sure, the rest of MD.. esp. the 'beneath the noise' bit is great but I definitely hear JT, UF and Boy guitar on HTDAAB.

 

[namkcuR]

Vertigo actually sounds 80s-ish to me, in a good way. Late in the second verse, around 'at least they know', Edge starts playing this repetition of notes, which I love, that sound to me very UF-era-ish. I mean, that repetition of notes, the second part of the solo, and the rhythm of the 'yeah yeah yeah's all remind me of nonother that UF's 'Wire', and the note repetition even reminds me of the guitar intro to Spanish Eyes. Maybe it's just me. I don't know.

 

[Zoots]

Actually, come to think of it... ATYCLB sounds more original than HTDAAB. I still prefer HTDAAB cos it's almost like a killer nostalgia album while ATYCLB is plain vanilla/borderline boring with some beautiful songs like Walk On.

 

[Irishteen]

I don't think that u2 has ever made any qualms about wanting to sell as many albums as possible. It's no secret at all. It never has been, and it never will be.

Some people think Vertigo and Beautiful Day are sell-outs, but I see it a different way. If "selling out" is the band being themselves, and writing songs that resonate with as many people as possible, then they are guilty as charged. But that's not what selling out is. Selling out is compromising yourself and your music to make money. U2 has never done this.

I agree, U2 are being themselves, just because some people don't like, doesn't mean its bad or selling out.

 

[LJT]

Re: Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

What about the guitar part in Sometimes when he sings 'and it's you when I look in the mirror'? The first time I heard it, it instantly reminded me of 80s U2! And what about the intro to Miracle Drug? Jick once made a mix of WOWY and Miracle Drug and the intros went together so well, it was scary! Go ahead, play both intros together and tell me MD isn't longing for WOWY/past glories! Sure, the rest of MD.. esp. the 'beneath the noise' bit is great but I definitely hear JT, UF and Boy guitar on HTDAAB.

Well i certainly do not see Miracle Drug trying to be WOWY...big deal similar intro......i see as much similarity in some of the stuff on Achtung Baby with Joshua Tree/Unforgettable Fire U2 just a few different addons to it, the dancebeats and different atmospherics.......fine there is a similar guitar style used, but i do not think any songs would fit well on any of the 80s albums....it is used with a different attitude and ideas in mind...i find it slightly ridiculous that some people feel Edge can not use a guitar style he basically created most bands have used similar guitar styles throughout their recording career great bands included...does U2 have to change style constantly? I am more interested in songs sounding good to my ears than a new chord progression or new sound....new sound is a great bonus not if the songs are crap....

 

[starvinmarvin]

Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

They did all that between 1987 and 1997 too!!! while at the same time writing un-compromising albums... not over-produced ones with guitar riffs that are more 80s wannabes than stand-alone classics.

Ha! You think that Achtung isn't commercial? EVERY SINGLE SONG has a very conventional song structure. You're just being fooled by the unconventional effects Edge was using on his guitar. If you take that away, every single song on Achtung would sound like the Joshua Tree. Zooropa was definitely more experimental, but again it isn't overly unconventional. Pop has very, very conventional songs, dressed up in loops and dance beats, but in terms of the actual compositions they are just as commercial as anything on the last 2 albums. The only thing "unconventional" about Pop is that it is extraordinarily dull for a U2 album.

Besides, ATYCLB doesn't sound drastically different than Pop, other than the fact that it is better produced and the songwriting is much, much better.

Which guitar riffs are 80's wannabes? It seems to me that Edge INVENTED his guitar style, and has the right to use it whenever the right song calls for it. I think I said before on another thread that there's no use ragging on the Edge for playing like Edge. That's like complaining about Pete Townshend using suspended power chords, or getting on Larry Mullen Jr's case for playing syncopated drum beats on every song. It's the way he plays, so get over it.

I guess part of the problem lies in what type of a band people think U2 is? To me, and to many other people who were fans back in the 80's, U2 is a guitar-driven rock band. To other people who latched on to U2 in the "experimental" 90's U2 is an electronica-tinged, dark/ironic spectacle. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the U2 of today is more like the U2 of glory years. They don't sound retro - they still sound modern - but something about the songs and presentation is refreshingly honest in comparison to the 90's.

 

[LJT]

Vertigo actually sounds 80s-ish to me, in a good way. Late in the second verse, around 'at least they know', Edge starts playing this repetition of notes, which I love, that sound to me very UF-era-ish. I mean, that repetition of notes, the second part of the solo, and the rhythm of the 'yeah yeah yeah's all remind me of nonother that UF's 'Wire', and the note repetition even reminds me of the guitar intro to Spanish Eyes. Maybe it's just me. I don't know.

I am not denying that they have not used a similar guitar sound in places..but i believe they did the same in the 90s...to me 80s U2 could have written Ultraviolet...but it would be without the more dance rock influence...the guitar style they could have did no problem...attitude would be different though...80s U2 could not have written A Man and A Woman in my opinion...too different an attitude to love...

U2 have always evolved in my opinion not by changing their sound, just more so by adding new things to it....

 

[Zoots]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

Well i certainly do not see Miracle Drug trying to be WOWY...big deal similar intro......i see as much similarity in some of the stuff on Achtung Baby with Joshua Tree/Unforgettable Fire U2 just a few different addons to it, the dancebeats and different atmospherics.......fine there is a similar guitar style used, but i do not think any songs would fit well on any of the 80s albums....it is used with a different attitude and ideas in mind...i find it slightly ridiculous that some people feel Edge can not use a guitar style he basically created most bands have used similar guitar styles throughout their recording career great bands included...does U2 have to change style constantly? I am more interested in songs sounding good to my ears than a new chord progression or new sound....new sound is a great bonus not if the songs are crap....

Fair enough. It's just that the Edge could be doing so many more innovative things with his guitar and instead he plays his signature riffs. IMO, you should never be satisfied and rest on your laurels. Whatever happened to the phrase 'dream out loud'??? Buried under the 'biggest band in the world' tag I guess.

 

[starvinmarvin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

Fair enough. It's just that the Edge could be doing so many more innovative things with his guitar and instead he plays his signature riffs. IMO, you should never be satisfied and rest on your laurels. Whatever happened to the phrase 'dream out loud'??? Buried under the 'biggest band in the world' tag I guess.

That is ridiculous. The Edge has always, always sounded like The Edge. Even in the "glorious" 90's. He is not repeating himslef as much as you are claiming.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

They did all that between 1987 and 1997 too!!! while at the same time writing un-compromising albums... not over-produced ones with guitar riffs that are more 80s wannabes than stand-alone classics.

Yes, they did (get everyone on their feet during 'Streets') in 1987 to 1997, too. But my point is that now their audience is SO large, that they have no qualms being direct and painting in bold colours. When you feel you know the obvious, and the obvious is something that others find difficult to see, you want to share it with others. But I must admit, the spirit of a song like 'Streets' is something that I prefer not to be boxed in a neat little square as it is now. Not that I don't adore the efforts Bono is putting toward Africa - as I do - but some things - and 'Streets' is one of them - resound more when left in the etherial. However, the end justifies the means in this case. Sometimes for the sake of progress we need to attach the literal...in order to ground ourselves for a particular objective. And yes, it does take some of the magic away. But like I said, everyone is listening....and it needs to be said loud and clear for everyone to understand.

 

[LJT]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

Fair enough. It's just that the Edge could be doing so many more innovative things with his guitar and instead he plays his signature riffs. IMO, you should never be satisfied and rest on your laurels. Whatever happened to the phrase 'dream out loud'??? Buried under the 'biggest band in the world' tag I guess.

I am no guitar expert...but there was nothing terribly innovative about Desire guitar wise? good song though....nothing terribly innovative about Discotheque...cool riff though....all in my opinion though...i just care about good songs not whether oooh brand new chord progression, sound etc if it sounds good its great for me anything else is a bonus....

 

[starvinmarvin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

I am no guitar expert...but there was nothing terribly innovative about Desire guitar wise? good song though....nothing terribly innovative about Discotheque...cool riff though....all in my opinion though...i just care about good songs not whether oooh brand new chord progression, sound etc if it sounds good its great for me anything else is a bonus....

Exactly! Desire is a Bo Diddley rip-off, but it's still cool because the vocals are outstanding. The Discotheque riff is a generic blues-based riff. Anyone could have come up with it, and I'm sure varients of the riff have been played in millions of pubs across the world. What makes the song cool is the melody and the beat. Melody and rhythm are the two most importnat components of a good song. If used creatively - which Edge still does - guitar will simply colour the sound.

 

[Zoots]

Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

Ha! You think that Achtung isn't commercial? EVERY SINGLE SONG has a very conventional song structure. You're just being fooled by the unconventional effects Edge was using on his guitar. If you take that away, every single song on Achtung would sound like the Joshua Tree.

I never said Achtung is not commercial. Point me to the part of my post where I said that! AB is mainstream as hell which is not always a bad thing. Btw, I can totally see songs like One and Who's Gonna Ride being made a few years earlier for the Joshua Tree. But not something like Zoo Station, The Fly and Mysterious Ways. So it's drenched in distortion guitar effects and dance beats.. so what? That's what makes the song different from another one on JT! At least there was something different about the image, the attitude and sonics in AB. Are ATYCLB or HTDAAB THAT different sounding from the 80s albums? I don't think so.

The only thing "unconventional" about Pop is that it is extraordinarily dull for a U2 album.

Besides, ATYCLB doesn't sound drastically different than Pop, other than the fact that it is better produced and the songwriting is much, much better.

Okay, you hate Pop.. I get it. But please don't say that the songwriting on ATYCLB is better... please!!! (pun intended).

Stuck/Elevation/IALW/Wild Honey/Grace

VS.

DYFL/Mofo/SATS/IGWSHA/Gone/Miami/second half of Playboy Mansion/Velvet Dress/Please/WUDM

 

[LJT]

Beautiful Day, Walk On, In A Little While, Peace on Earth, Elevation, Stuck, Wild Honey etc...i believe they are all better than Velvet Dress, Miami, Playboy Mansion, Angels and the album version of Last Night On Earth

I also reckon all of HTDAAB is better than those songs i mentioned.....

Saying that i would rank Pop higher inmy list of favourite U2 albums that HTDAAB

 

[Zoots]

Re: Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

Stuck/Elevation/IALW/Wild Honey/Grace

VS.

DYFL/Mofo/SATS/IGWSHA/Gone/Miami/second half of Playboy Mansion/Velvet Dress/Please/WUDM

Okay, if you want a more 'fair' assessment...

Lyrics of (DYFL/Mofo/SATS/IGWSHA/Gone/Miami/second half of Playboy Mansion/Velvet Dress/Please/WUDM)

[are much deeper, poetic and in every way better than]

Lyrics of (BD/Stuck/Elevation/Walk On/Kite/IALW/WH/WILATW/NY/Grace)


I should add these 3 letters here....... IMO.

 

[starvinmarvin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

Okay, you hate Pop.. I get it. But please don't say that the songwriting on ATYCLB is better... please!!! (pun intended).

Stuck/Elevation/IALW/Wild Honey/Grace

VS.

DYFL/Mofo/SATS/IGWSHA/Gone/Miami/second half of Playboy Mansion/Velvet Dress/Please/WUDM

I actually don't hate Pop. But I hate the fact that it is so vastly overrated by a handful of poeple on this board. The only song on Pop that has stood the test of time is Gone and maybe SATS, but that's it. Song for song ATYCLB is way better. Beautiful Day (hear the drum loops, Pop lovers?), Stuck (yes, it is a great song - you know, something with an actual melody, unlike Please), Elevation (yes, it's OK to have fun every once in a while too), Walk On (one of the Top 10 best U2 songs, better than anything on Pop), Kite (there's some drum loops in that one too!), In A Little While (oh my god, this one has a great melody and outstanding vocals - it's terrible!), When I Look At The World ( there's some Acthung-style guitar effects on that one).............

 

[starvinmarvin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

Okay, if you want a more 'fair' assessment...

Lyrics of (DYFL/Mofo/SATS/IGWSHA/Gone/Miami/second half of Playboy Mansion/Velvet Dress/Please/WUDM)

[are much deeper, poetic and in every way better than]

Lyrics of (BD/Stuck/Elevation/Walk On/Kite/IALW/WH/WILATW/NY/Grace)


I should add these 3 letters here....... IMO.

Good lyrics do not a good song make. Sorry, but that's why music is called "music," and not poetry.

BTW, the lyrics on Pop are not as great as you claim.

 

[Zoots]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For all the selling out talk, and even without it, it has to be said....

BTW, the lyrics on Pop are not as great as you claim.

over to you... namkcuR!

 

[starvinmarvin]

Also, if you place so much value on the lyrics, why don't you listen to Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen instead. Both of those guys are better poets than Bono.

 

[LJT]

Lyrically Yahweh is basically just as good as Do You Feel Loved

 

[starvinmarvin]

Lyrically Yahweh is basically just as good as Do You Feel Loved

Better, I say. Most people don't like it because of its spiritual theme though.

Athiests!!!!!!!!

 

[Zoots]

Also, if you place so much value on the lyrics, why don't you listen to Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen instead. Both of those guys are better poets than Bono.

Well... actually, overall I place more importance on the music, not the lyrics! But Pop is musically stellar!!! It's lyrically and musically beyond it's time! ATYCLB is very safe/conservative musically and apart from a few highlights like BD, Walk On, Kite and NY has mediocre lyrics.

 

[Zoots]

Better, I say. Most people don't like it because of its spiritual theme though.

Athiests!!!!!!!!

I'm not an athiest and I love songs like 'I Still Haven't Found' and 'In God's Country'. But DYFL is miles ahead of Yahweh! Yahweh is pretty much a rip-off of DYFL's lyrics and One Tree Hill's music put together in a well-produced sugary icing.