Flood Should be Fired for COBL

[JOFO]

I've a question for elfyx:
have you heard any of the demos for yahweh, native son, all because of you? what is your opinion on those?

 

[jick]

I don't like replies like "you should be happy that we even have new music." That is hardly the point.

The point is that the production quality of the new music sucks and it could have been better. Production quality has nothing to do with content such as the choice of chords or guitar riffs or lyrics. It has to do with presentation. When you have a drum track that seems to be mixed too low and in mono at that, when you have songs that are flat sounding and full of clipping when put in a sound spectrum, then you have a problem. And the original poster seems to imply that Flood is the root of the problem.

Cheers,

J

 

[elfyx]

What are some specific instances on this album in which the mastering is that terrible?

I need to wrap this up for tonight, but I just wanted to quickly answer your question.

The two most damning causes for the poor mastering on this album is the average RMS levels which are way too high, and the digital distortion that results from it. I did an analysis in Sonar, and while I don't have the numbers in front of me (I'll be able to pull them up later) I recall it being somewhere near -7dB or so. That is so high that there is almost no variance in the volume. The end effect is HTDAAB basically screams at you at full volume and never lets up. Every instrument is basically the same loudness; there is no room for any of the instruments to breathe or to hear its detail. The music sounds one dimensional at best, and distorted at worst. Peak amplitude likely hits 0dBFS but I'll have to check.

Bear in mind that digital distortion will not always manifest itself as clipping or popping. This generally happens when the waveform hits 0dB (the reference level of CD audio), but also what we see are squared off waveforms which is also another form of distortion, and it doesn't sound good at all.

 

[MrBrau1]

well, the mastering is bad the production can be endlessly debated.

Oh right, the digital distortion you can't hear, but can see on a graph. When I listen to music, I don't look at graphs.

 

[elfyx]

I've a question for elfyx:
have you heard any of the demos for yahweh, native son, all because of you? what is your opinion on those?

No- I can not justify buying the complete u2 set for $150 as I already own all the albums on CD. I am very interested in hearing them as I absolutely love to hear the evolution of music and the songwriting process. I still go back and listen to the AB sessions from time to time, but I really don't want to steal any commerciallyreleased u2 music.

Without hearing them my guess is that they are mastered relatively fine as they aren't an album release, but you never know. How do you think they sound in relation to the tracks on HTDAAB? Are they noticeably quieter than any of the songs off of HTDAAB?

 

[elfyx]

Oh right, the digital distortion you can't hear, but can see on a graph. When I listen to music, I don't look at graphs.

Mr Brau, I don't really know what your problem is, but please realize that just because you may not be able to hear the distortion doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I truly believe that should we have a properly mastered copy of HTDAAB next to the current release, the difference would be night and day and everyone would be able to hear the difference very clearly.

 

[MrBrau1]

I think Arnie Acosta knows more than you.

 

[elfyx]

I think Arnie Acosta knows more than you.

I would guarantee Mr. Acosta knows more than I, but that is pretty irrelevant if one understands the current situation in the recording industry these days. As I've said, the mastering and mixing engineers have virtually no say anymore into how the end product is mastered. Almost every engineer I know or who have been speaking up about this trend know exactly what they are doing to the music and are against it. But what happens when the record label says "do it this way, or your fired?" What would you do? Some engineers refuse to trash the audio and they are no longer working on the big projects. Most hope its just a self-correcting trend that will pass and are riding it out. BTW, Arnie has mastered previous releases that sound excellent. His skills are not in question- only the techniques and methods used for recent industry releases and specifically HTDAAB.

 

[sue4u2]

Still, the fact remain:

No one can ever just be happy we have new music.

Well said Sicy
As far as the rest,
With all your expert analitical responses, I've never heard of any of your productions/albums or read any of your reviews, other than here of course. over and over...

Sorry if I offend, but I'm in pissed off mood tonight. so I thought I would join in the negativity. See what you've done

 

[rjhbonovox]

Still, the fact remain:



Well said Sicy
As far as the rest,
With all your expert analitical responses, I've never heard of any of your productions/albums or read any of your reviews, other than here of course. over and over...

Sorry if I offend, but I'm in pissed off mood tonight. so I thought I would join in the negativity. See what you've done

Heheheh I love these posts, they can't accept a bit of criticism for the way the album sounds. No matter what the quality of music, there is definetly somehting wrong with the production or whatever of this disc. I heard my brother playing the CD earlier and he put on SYCMIOYO and even on a normal 2 channel stereo it sounded fuc#ing awful. The vocal for one thing on that song(and others) is too up front in the mix, and that is all I could hear. If mixed properly SYCMIOYO would have been a real top track.

 

[MrBrau1]

Heheheh I love these posts, they can't accept a bit of criticism for the way the album sounds. No matter what the quality of music, there is definetly somehting wrong with the production or whatever of this disc. I heard my brother playing the CD earlier and he put on SYCMIOYO and even on a normal 2 channel stereo it sounded fuc#ing awful. The vocal for one thing on that song(and others) is too up front in the mix, and that is all I could hear. If mixed properly SYCMIOYO would have been a real top track.

Nope. You need to provide a graph to back this up.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

I am glad my ears suck.

 

[MrBrau1]

I am glad my ears suck.

your ears are fine.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

thanks!

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

Sometimes is one of the better sounding songs to me off HTDAAB..Edge's guitar sounds crisp and theres a nice ambient atmosphere throughout..I do know sort of what people are getting at though, overall HTDAAB is mixed really loud.

 

[Indiana Jones]

So many U2 songs sound better live you have to wonder!

It's no secret U2 only record a studio album as a demo for their next tour.

U2 are a rare band in that when recording a studio album, they're always thinking about how the song can be played live. Well, with most of their albums anyway, there are always exceptions. It's almost as if they're in a rush to finish the studio album so they can get out and play the tracks live.

Can't say I blame them!

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I would have to agree with the complaints about the mixing and mastering. On the first listen of the new album, I found myself cringing at many moments and feeling actually bewildered and slightly embarrassed. I think the music itself is lovely, the tunes are solid and it's not that the band is at fault. But it occurs to me that if you didn't have the motivation to sit down with this record and let it sink it, getting beyond the bad sound mix, one might walk away underwhelmed.

In any case, I still like the album. Tracks 1-5 at least are blowing me away, although the last half is spotty. But I am happy to have new U2 music and I know that when they rev up the touring machine all these songs will come into their own.

 

[Yahweh]

The fact of the matter is that you can point out mastering and production problems on every album if you listen hard enough and most people are not going to spend all day listening to a song 100 times over either. You can find production flaws in every album from Boy until today and you cant fix them so either live with it or simply do not listen to it. Flood has been a part of U2 records since Achtung Baby and nobody seemed to complain about him then. Same with Nellie Hooper. The only new person U2 really added to the mix this time was Jacknife Lee, the rest of them are all from the old crowd outside of Chris Thomas. So I dont see why they would have mastered and produced this album any differently.

Maybe it is mixed loud for a reason and that reason simply is that most people dont really take music all that seriously and for them to listen to an album it has to be mixed loud. How many times have people been at a party where music has been played, its nothing more then background noise for most people. U2 albums of the past have been mixed quiet and nobody can really argue that fact.

You people act like this CD is like listening to a cassette tape when clearly it is not. Please tell me what you consider to be a great mixed CD, not by U2 by another band so we can all here the difference on what you consider to be great instead of sitting here complaining about it.

 

[Indiana Jones]

Speaking of Jackknife Lee, I love the little pops and whistles he adds to the tracks. I would've spotted his handiwork even if he wasn't credited. I've been a big fan of Snow Patrol since their first album, just like U2 .... I certainly hope SP get to tour with U2.

Although Gary Lightbody, if you're listening mate, you sounded terrible in Melbourne Australia last July. Not just larengytus or a 'flu, but it sounded like he had Tuberculosis. Don't smoke like Bono, it'll kill ya.

Ach, I've drunk too muych sake tonight. Kombi!

 

[bedouin fire]

brian eno should have been more present

 

[Aardvark747]

brian eno should have been more present

I agree. His influence was very clear on the one song he was involved in.

 

[tkramer]

I don't understand those of you that think good production is "completely subjective" and that the people here that are sad about the poor production are saps. Its a real and measurable thing. Notice most of us DO like the album, we just can't stand the recording we've been given of it.

I feel sorry for those of you that have never taken the time to train your ears. I'm 60% deaf in my right ear, and I can hear it plain as day...

 

[rjhbonovox]

I don't understand those of you that think good production is "completely subjective" and that the people here that are sad about the poor production are saps. Its a real and measurable thing. Notice most of us DO like the album, we just can't stand the recording we've been given of it.

I feel sorry for those of you that have never taken the time to train your ears. I'm 60% deaf in my right ear, and I can hear it plain as day...

Excellent post!

 

[JOFO]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing either way; I'd just like more information to make my own decisions.

Please provide me with at least 3 songs by u2 that you guys believe are mixed and mastered properly.

Then provide me with 3 that you think are not (presumably from HTDAAB).

I'm not challenging anyone here, I'd just like to do a comparison.

Thanks.

 

[MrBrau1]

I don't understand those of you that think good production is "completely subjective" and that the people here that are sad about the poor production are saps. Its a real and measurable thing. Notice most of us DO like the album, we just can't stand the recording we've been given of it.

I feel sorry for those of you that have never taken the time to train your ears. I'm 60% deaf in my right ear, and I can hear it plain as day...

Horseshit. When my band recorded our album all four people prefered different mixes, and we laboured for hours on the mastering to keep everyone happy. The mixes I disliked weren't "wrong", just not what I prefered.

 

[Se7en]

not to name drop or anything, but i have an acquaintance who engineered and mastered for the King Biscuit Flower Hour Radio Show. i was talking with him last night and asked if he had picked up the new u2 cd. he said he had and that he was hoping to use it as a reference cd but said he couldn't because the mastering engineer had just slammed the shit out of every track. so this isn't something that people on this board are making up. it's a real problem with the album if you're at all interested in the technical aspect of the music.

 

[Ellay]

Where are the f***ing grooves, when I put it on my record player, all I got was a awful scraping sound..

That Flood's got a bloody awful lot to answer for, and he couldn't even be bothered to deliver it to my front door.

Part timer!

 

[ImOuttaControl]

I'm with the people who say the mixing of this album is subjective for a few reasons:

1. We haven't heard any alternatively mixed versions of these songs to base these complaints on. I honestly don't think I'd like COBL any more than I do if it were mixed better; if the "drums weren't low in the mix and in mono."

2. I love the comment someone made about "I don't look at graphs when I listen to music" and the reply was "Whether or not you hear distortion, it is there." If it's there and you can't hear it, then whats the problem? I seriously don't hear any distortion. I'm a guitar player/singer who records my own songs at home...I guess the distortion I'm used to is when everything starts breaking up from being recorded too loud...I don't hear the sound breaking on HTDAAB.

3. I like a "louder" album like this compaired to a quiter album like "The Joshua Tree" The reason I was never a fan of U2 till I was 18 in 1999 was because everytime I heard U2 on the radio, I wanted to fall alseep! Even a song like Streets sounded so muted and mumbled whenever I heard it! Now that I'm a huge fan, I get to hear that complaint from my friends. "U2 puts me to sleep." They don't say that about HTDAAB songs they've heard. Personally, I hate the mucky production of the older albums.

Which brings me to my final point. U2's older albums, maybe with the exception of POP and the first 3 all had this mucky sound to them. What makes that production any better?

I say readjust your levels on your system if HTDAAB sounds that bad. I have a great system and the album sounds awesome on it.

 

[tkramer]

Once again, this point isn't even up for dispute. It doesn't sound awesome. Its quite literally like arguing that the sun doesn't go down at night. The FACTS are everything in the mix is turned up. There is no crispness to the sound. Light things sound heavy, and heavy things sound heavy. It sounds like mono from track one to 11.

Go to this thread:

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104649&highlight=production

Says it all. I mean, look at the graph for ABOY. The song is shot to hell. Basically, all the details are gone. It may not distort your speakers per se, but the details have been blow to bits. Don't worry, it's not the bands fault. It's not the producers fault. The label did it.

Louder is crap. Louder is the SUV that goes by my house thumping. I could build a system like that for under 2,000.00, but it would only be loud. Loud is not the holy grail of audio. Its the holy grail of teenage boys who know nothing about being a true audiophile. Give me a quality recording with detail and thought that conveys the artist's intentions any day.


Ps. You're right, U2 has a history of poor sounding discs.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

Once again, this point isn't even up for dispute. It doesn't sound awesome. Its quite literally like arguing that the sun doesn't go down at night. The FACTS are everything in the mix is turned up. There is no crispness to the sound. Light things sound heavy, and heavy things sound heavy. It sounds like mono from track one to 11.

Yes, it IS up for dispute. What is VERY annoying is people are like "it's terrible" and think that's the end of story. "It's quite literally like arguing that the sun doesn't go down at night." Wow, I'm a teacher and with arguements like that over a subjective subject, you would fail miserably.

FACT: It sounds great to me and obviously others who have said so. The album isn't my favorite U2 album, but that's because of the songs, not the production. I know that the FACTS are that the mix is turned up, and I know for a FACT that bothers some of you. But also a FACT for me and obviously others is that the album DOES sound crisp and DOES NOT sound distorted. The FACT is that everyone here is a different person and processes the music in their brain differently. They will either like it or not like it. Hence, the word subjective; others WILL hear the album differently than to you do. I suggest to others with this same "end of story" arguement look up the meaning of subjective in the dictionary.