do you think that bono truly believes in his causes...

[U2Man]

ok, I'll even read the entire quote again



still sounds fine to me

well, you're missing the point of this thread.

 

[corianderstem]

my point is that people dont like to pay taxes, and they like it even less when they cannot see that they get any kind of return from the taxes they pay.

Yes, this is true.

But I think most people (at least in America), when they're disappointed that they're not getting a return from their taxes are disappointed because their tax money is being spent on things they disagree with (i.e., war, or $300,000 toilets at the Pentagon or whatever), not because someone is paying less taxes than they should be.

Does that make sense? I might say, "I hate that my tax dollars are being spent on the war in Iraq instead of helping those less fortunate in my country."

I wouldn't say, "Tax dollars aren't going towards helping those less fortunate because Joe Blow isn't paying as much in taxes as he could be."

 

[Liesje]

Then people should start paying attention to how they vote. When Congress promises to allocated a certain amount to aid, it's not because Bush decided so after a meeting with Bono, it's because the Congress people WE voted into office passed the bill. People have no right to up and start complaining after the fact. I'd guess that the avergage joe has no clue where there own House and Senate reps stand on foreign aid. Sad, really. I guess it's just another point of Bono's - if it matters, then ACT like it matters, vote like it matters. Don't point fingers at other people for things you've totally ignored yourself.

 

[redhotswami]

but dont you think that average joe (and im not talking about average joe u2 fan) finds it hard to accept that the government spending on his education, local hospital, etc. are cut down?

okay, i wasn't gonna come back here, but i just needed to post this. in the united states, the gov't spends less than .5% on the poor. (in an earlier post in another thread i said less than 1%, but less than .5% is more accurate). i'm sure the average joe OR JANE would not mind if just a .5% more of that was allocated (ESPECIALLY from the "defense" spending) to make it a whole 1%. I can't find the actual quote, but isn't that all that Bono was asking for from the U.S. in the beginning?? Isn't it just 1 billion, right?

Besides, it isn't Bono's job to take care of the world's poor. It's ours. I don't care what type of luxurious lifestyle he is living. I don't care that THE BAND (not he) avoids taxes. My family and friends have been doin that shit for years. Yet, he is still committed to helping his friends in Africa. He is doing his part, we better be damn sure we're doing ours.

He believes in his causes. Why can't we?

 

[U2Man]

Yes, this is true.

But I think most people (at least in America), when they're disappointed that they're not getting a return from their taxes are disappointed because their tax money is being spent on things they disagree with (i.e., war, or $300,000 toilets at the Pentagon or whatever), not because someone is paying less taxes than they should be.

Does that make sense? I might say, "I hate that my tax dollars are being spent on the war in Iraq instead of helping those less fortunate in my country."

I wouldn't say, "Tax dollars aren't going towards helping those less fortunate because Joe Blow isn't paying as much in taxes as he could be."

what if Joe Blow happened to be someone that tried to persuade you to pay taxes that you weren't too excited about paying?

 

[Ralphie]

don't you think his willingness of listening to bono's message drops a bit when someone tells him that that guy has actually avoided some taxes by moving a part of his company out of his own home country?

Honestly, I don't think this would change most people's opinion. I think if the hypothetical 'someone' was not a fan of Bono then they would consider it another point against him, if they were in agreement with what he's doing, they'd be more likely to feel the way many members of this board do. But again, there's no way to really resolve this without taking a worldwide poll so...we'll just have to agree that there are different hypotheses on this one!

my point is that people dont like to pay taxes, and they like it even less when they cannot see that they get any kind of return from the taxes they pay.

I am not being flip or sarcastic here, but I am genuinely confused by this...I think I'm not understanding what you meant. When I read this I thought 'but Bono is doing is trying to give people a very big 'return' from their taxes, i.e., the preservation of human life'. Were you referring to taxes in general?

inevitably some political opponent will bring up the issue about bono's tax avoidance, and it will sink well in among those who already have a hard time accepting this tax reallocation. i cannot see how this cannot hurt his cause in any way.

You really think so? Possibly. It seems like that kind of thing is usually saved for actual politicians, not activists, but I guess you never know.

 

[corianderstem]

Honestly, Joe Blow's finances and what he does with them would not affect my decision. (Unless it turns out he's using government money for hookers and blow or something.)

If Joe Blow is advocating something that would increase my taxes, I would vote for or against Joe Blow (or whatever he's advocating, if he's not a politician) based on whether or not it's something I want my tax dollars to go towards.

 

[U2Man]

okay, i wasn't gonna come back here, but i just needed to post this. in the united states, the gov't spends less than .5% on the poor. (in an earlier post in another thread i said less than 1%, but less than .5% is more accurate). i'm sure the average joe OR JANE would not mind if just a .5% more of that was allocated (ESPECIALLY from the "defense" spending) to make it a whole 1%. I can't find the actual quote, but isn't that all that Bono was asking for from the U.S. in the beginning?? Isn't it just 1 billion, right?

Besides, it isn't Bono's job to take care of the world's poor. It's ours. I don't care what type of luxurious lifestyle he is living. I don't care that THE BAND (not he) avoids taxes. My family and friends have been doin that shit for years. Yet, he is still committed to helping his friends in Africa. He is doing his part, we better be damn sure we're doing ours.

He believes in his causes. Why can't we?

as someone brought up earlier in this thread - denmark has no real military and not many poor people. and its one of the richest countries on the planet. and its been number 1 in foreign aid for years. proud of it. and yet at the last election people voted for a government that wanted to cut foreign with quite a bit. this happened while economically things were going better than ever. people want bono's luxurious life more than they want to help the poorest of the poor. can bono blame them?

 

[corianderstem]

You really think so? Possibly. It seems like that kind of thing is usually saved for actual politicians, not activists, but I guess you never know.

I agree with that. I don't see any politician slinging mud against Bono, because it might make that person come across like he's against helping the world's poor, or against fighting AIDS in Africa.

That's not something a politician would want to do in America, unless he's only trying to get the vote of the asshole population.

 

[U2Man]

You really think so? Possibly. It seems like that kind of thing is usually saved for actual politicians, not activists, but I guess you never know.

when activism turns into substance, it becomes politics like everything else.

 

[redhotswami]

But Denmark also canceled some debts too, right? That's still helping out the situation to me. Not perfect, true. And neither is Bono. But every little bit helps.

 

[Ralphie]

when activism turns into substance, it becomes politics like everything else.

I suppose so, although I can't think of a precedent where this has happened before (politicians 'mud slinging' involving a non-politician lobbying for a cause). Although that certainly doesn't mean they don't exist, there just aren't any that come to mind.

 

[hughfan_1]

do you travel around the globe, asking governments to raise the tax levels of their countries in order to donate more to the poor?

now, do you?

He is not asking the governments to "raise the tax levels" to donate to the poor. As he said back in 1992 in The Fly, and I quote, "There's a lot of things if I could I'd rearrange".

The money is already there, he wants to rearrange how it is spent. i.e spend many many Billions on a war or spend Billions to save millions of lives. Many less Billions need to be spent to save millions of lives than it does to fight a war. It kinda makes sense to me.

 

[Liesje]

Also, not even that much should have to be reallocated. Didn't our government promise 5 bil with 15 bil total over a given period of time? And those promised were made by the people WE voted into power, so I guess we can assume we're all OK with that amount of money. So why not just allocated the amount our government already promised some time ago? We don't need to raise taxes or stop fighting the war (though I'd have NO problem with either).

 

[hughfan_1]

Also, not even that much should have to be reallocated. Didn't our government promise 5 bil with 15 bil total over a given period of time? And those promised were made by the people WE voted into power, so I guess we can assume we're all OK with that amount of money. So why not just allocated the amount our government already promised some time ago? We don't need to raise taxes or stop fighting the war (though I'd have NO problem with either).

Yeap, not sure of the exact figures, but sounds about right.

 

[U2Kitten]

Y Do Angelina Jolie, Oprah and Alicia Keys care about the problem they speak of absolutely, do they get as much flack as Bono who knows, I doubt it, its a double standard.

I didn't know about Keyes, but the others, yes, I have heard bashing of them, too. Oprah is totally loaded, way richer than Bono, and has been criticized not only for not doing more for Africa but for not helping poor black kids in America. Considering her background, and how much she now has, some think she should do a lot more, and honestly, she could. She, unlike Bono, doesn't even have a family to raise and leave her fortune to. What's she going to do with all that money, stuff pillows with it? She can't take it with her.

I also know people who hate her for being pretentious she only puts her own face on the cover of her own magazine!

And Angelina, well, she's just a brother- smooching fruitcake who collects all different kinds of kids, that's what people think of her (and her own Dad thinks she's mentally ill and needs help)

 

[corianderstem]

I can't bring myself to criticize someone who does things to help people for not doing "enough." Who decides what's enough? Someone like Oprah or Bono will get criticized no matter what they do. They could give away every penny they have, and then get hung in the press for being a martyr.

Heck, Joe Blow down the street could give away every penny of his own for good causes, and there would still be people who would roll their eyes and call him crazy.

As for Oprah, she does things in America as well. Frankly, it's her money, and she should give to the charities and causes that she believes in, where she wants to see a change. Which apparently she does. It's not Oprah's job to fix everything. Nor is it Bono's.

(Yes, yes, I know that's not the point of this thread. But jeez, this thread has morphed multiple times since U2Man's original post.)

 

[Ralphie]

Oprah has received a good bit of bashing, no doubt. Did you hear that she just donated 40 million to start a "Leadership Academy" for girls in Africa? So exciting to see more people stepping up to the plate and helping in Africa...here's hoping we'll see some positive change there in this decade.

 

[Liesje]

ANyway.......

 

[corianderstem]

 

[Ralphie]

Originally posted by Liesje
ANyway.......

Sorry...am I boring you with my talk of Oprah? I shall find my way back on topic now, promise.

 

[Copy]

I'm encouraging them to support initiatives that will send money overseas to help ailing people.

At the same time I do what I can to avoid paying as much tax as possible.

Obviously something has to give (but not really, the US Government spends 106% of what it earns.)

Now judge me.

Tell me how bad a person I am.

Secondly, how would you reconcile the fact that the band, U2, will be paying tax in the Netherlands, and have no voice in how that tax money is spent? As far as I know, they won't be voting residents there. They most likely won't be using any of the services their tax money is used to fund.

What about the fact they pay millions of dollars in tax across the globe, yet have no legal input as to how that money is spent. When they sell out 5 nights at MSG, they pay tax on that revenue. Yet they have no say in how that money is spent. The money they put into that system far oughtweighs what they will use in terms of services.

stop the presuming. no one is judging you.

you are encouraging them to spend their own money - and your own tax avoidance does not go against that.

you are not trying to convince their government to force them into paying those taxes. there's a huge difference.

when you place a company in another country, you ARE using the services of that country.

the same goes for concerts. u2 are using the roads, airspace, etc. when they tour. police may have to protect them, etc. and its their very own decision to tour.

 

[Laura M]

Sorry...am I boring you with my talk of Oprah? I shall find my way back on topic now, promise.

Don't think this thread is on topic at all

 

[Hallucination]

Yes I think he believes in what he's preaching no doubt. I believe he thinks it's possible as well. Nobody puts that much time and effort into somthing they don't believe in. I'm sure Bono realieses that the world isn't going to become void of these problems in his lifetime or our lifetime or even his childrens lifetime but you gotta start somewhere to get where your're going. If you dont' believe you'll get there than why bother starting. Bono has started somthing so I believe he belives we'll get there eventually.

 

[U2Man]

He is not asking the governments to "raise the tax levels" to donate to the poor. As he said back in 1992 in The Fly, and I quote, "There's a lot of things if I could I'd rearrange".

The money is already there, he wants to rearrange how it is spent. i.e spend many many Billions on a war or spend Billions to save millions of lives. Many less Billions need to be spent to save millions of lives than it does to fight a war. It kinda makes sense to me.

but hardly many countries other than the u.s. could pick all that money from the military spending, and even if they did, dont you think many americans would rather see that money spend on americas own social problems? there's plenty.

 

[Liesje]

but hardly many countries other than the u.s. could pick all that money from the military spending, and even if they did, dont you think many americans would rather see that money spend on americas own social problems? there's plenty.

What America wants is what America wants, but this is all pure speculation given what has actually happened. Remember when Bush promised an increase of 15 billion in aid? Everyone cheered! No one was saying "oh no, let's use that for MORE military spending, or welfare programs." Maybe Americans do have problems spending money other than domestically, but so far this has not been the case. Unless people feel this way, but aren't making it known to Congress. Then it's their own damn faults. All I know is 15 bil was promised and even my most conservative, racist, ethnocentric friends and relatives thought that was a smart move (some think of it as an investment to create more business opportunities that we will eventually benefit from). So I guess Americans DID want more spent on aid, and what was promised was never delivered, so now Bono's being a pest about it. I wasn't aware America had changed it's mind. We're still waiting for the gov't to make good on the aid monies that WE fought for.

 

[Copy]

people want bono's luxurious life more than they want to help the poorest of the poor. can bono blame them?

this is right on the nail!

 

[Salome]

I know I don't get the point of this thread anyway
but I keep getting more and more confused

is this about Bono believing in his causes
or about people not wanting to pay taxes

and do I understand that according to you people don't even want the 0.5% of government spendings to go to the poor since people want to be as rich as a rock star instead?

 

[Copy]

A large income is the best recipe of happiness I ever heard of

- Jane Austen

 

[Salome]

so you think that Bono should campaign for us to get a larger income first and then we can see whether we can fix Africa?

or does this mean that U2 moving a part of the operation to The Netherlands for reasons of taxes is just the way the word works?

what does it mean? really


this is what I've learned from this thread so far:
none of us wants to pay taxes, which is fine, except for U2 because Bono feels that we need to help those who really got nothing at all

I still don't know actually whether government spends the income from corporate taxes the same way as they spend private taxes come to think of it ...... so maybe it's even more confusing than I already thought to make sense out of this