Chomsky, Moore, Falwell, and Robertson

[Achtung Bubba]

As college life became increasingly hectic, I let slip my subscription to National Review, a beacon for conservatives.

Since the events of this past week, I find myself drawn to NR's website (and quickly moving to get a subscription back). Frankly, I have found in their website a refreshing change from this forum -- in which I have found far too many people unable to call Tuesday's attacks an act of war and unwilling to see that war is probably inevitable.

I have already mentioned several articls on National Review Online. Forgive me for posting yet another link, but here is another article:

http://www.nationalreview.com/ponnuru/ponnuru091401.shtml

In the article, Ramesh Ponnuru address three things already mentioned on this forum:

* Noam Chomsky's article
* Michael Moore's article
* Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson's comments

He says that all three are exceptions to the general response of the press. All four men are guilty of NOT being "sober, responsible, patriotic, and morally and strategically intelligent".

"This being a free country, nothing should be done to keep Moore, Falwell, et al from going off on whatever rants they choose. But civilized people should not let them into their houses."

The responses are simply "anti-American".


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- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

 

[DoctorGonzo]

He says that all three are exceptions to the general response of the press. All four men are guilty of NOT being "sober, responsible, patriotic, and morally and strategically intelligent".

Guilty of "not manufacturing consent for a milltiary campaign with no possible end while blindly agreeing with whatever the administration says" is more like it. Though, I don't agree with everything they've said. (Actually, I agree with nothing Falwell / Robertson have said)

"This being a free country, nothing should be done to keep Moore, Falwell, et al from going off on whatever rants they choose. But civilized people should not let them into their houses."

Noam Chomsky is now a threat to our personal safety because he has a legitimate gripe with the government?

The responses are simply "anti-American".

That sort of sick rhetoric and smearing is something I'd thought we had left behind in the darkest days of the Cold War.

 

[frogbat]

it's all opinions.. national review i'm sure are likely to take those views since they come from the opposite ideological spectrum..

even if there was anything in the national review that chomsky, moore et al agreed with, they prolly wouldn't admit it just as much as your periodical preferences would disagree..even if they read anything that made sense in those arguments,

they would never agree just so as to be in disagreement with the "otherside" -

and this branding of persons as being "un american" reminds what happened some time ago in my own country - the church promised to excommunicate any1 who had anything to do with one of the 2 main political parties (they've grown up a little since thank gawd)


since it's hard for those "experts" in america coming from opposite ideological backgrounds to agree, I'm sure it will be splendidly possible for the likes of us deletentes to agree.. I'm also sure we'd also be able to understand why the arabs and jews have been fighting for so long


I'll just want to let you know how surprised I am at your character change - it's understandable but it's also saddening, then again I know you only from what u post on this board

How would you like to be called unamerican for your opinions held, I thought america was supposedly meant to be the land of the free - free to hold any opinion you wish

so persons who agree in essence with the fact that these terrorists are to be exterminated are un american - fine

what about those people who turn them into a public eney for their opinions held? Doesn't that go against your american principles? guess different people have different a understanding for what america stands for... and my opinion is being lowered by your posts

my point? opinions one side has of the other can be discounted immediately

btw - the general press in america is regarded abroad as having rightwing leanings from what I know - then again I am often wrong

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Guilty of "not manufacturing consent for a milltiary campaign with no possible end while blindly agreeing with whatever the administration says" is more like it.

Surely, you're referring to just Chomsky and Moore. For them, I ask this: they are guilty of holding these evil thugs at a LEAST the same level of the United States, possibly higher.

Chomsky is NOT a legitimate threat (again, the writer says that they are free to say what they want and that nothing should be done). But the comments of Chomsky, Moore, Falwell, and Robertson should be rejected absolutely.

And I don't find the comments to be "sick rhetoric and smearing". Chomsky and Moore tries to blame the UNITED STATES ITSELF for the terrorism. Falwell and Robertson are preaching hate towards their fellow Americans.

It's speech AGAINST AMERICA. Thus it IS "anti-American" speech, and I'm appalled that so many here cannot call anything by what it is.

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- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

 

[Achtung Bubba]

frogbat:

(As an irrelevant aside, most people I know deny the Press' slant, or believe their slant to be liberal. On to the matter at hand...)

Did you read the article?

The writer said that the vast majority of the press -- including the very conservative National Review AND the very liberal New Repbulic -- has been "sober, responsible, patriotic, and morally and strategically intelligent".

The masses of agreement include President Bush, Democratic Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, Democratic House Minorty Leader Richard Gephart, Republican House Majority Leader Dick Armey and Whip Tom Delay.

We are unified with the RARE exceptions of these four schmucks and a handful of others.

And yes, in America, you can speak your mind; it's one of the reasons its citizens defend the country with such passion. But not every type of protected speech is "American" speech.

Cold-war Communists in this very country spoke of the destruction of the United States, is political systems, its economic systems, and its way of life. By being so agressive AGAINST America, it was (by its very nature) anti-American and un-American.

In the same way, the effort to equate the United States and the terrorists and the effort to spread hate by pinning certain groups of Americans to this attack are BOTH efforts AGAINST the United States.

I frankly don't care if your opinion of me is lowered; those comments by Chomsky and Falwell are anti-American comments.

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- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 09-15-2001).]

 

[bullet the blue sky]

*passes the blinkers around* ok... anyone else want some?

[This message has been edited by bullet the blue sky (edited 09-15-2001).]

 

[Sledgehammer]

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"I'm not afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens", Woody Allen

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Just want to send this to the top, reminding all here that not everyone has such a lovely opinion of Michael Moore.

------------------
- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

 

[diamondbruno9]

Bubba,I love you like a brother. One request don't even think about joining the John Birch Society.Thank You.

Your Brother,
diamond
bruno
007


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"..it's about breaking barriers, transcending boundries and conquering great divides"-Bono 1987

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An open letter to Bono from myself www.arizonaautoweb.com/bono/

 

[Angela Harlem]

Bubba.
After our dialogue the other day, I feel I want or moreso need, to say a few things to you. Your last reply to me set some things straight re: Act Of War. Things, granted that I have not a great deal of knowledge on. Your constitution, your governments, congress men and women, the whole thing. I want you to know that the hardest thing for me to comprehend about this is the unfathomable loss of innocent life. This with all the talk of pending war as you might understand is a lot to absorb.
That said, I WILL NOT accept the inuendo from yourself and The Wanderer that I am a sympathiser, or in any way of the opinion that your country got what it deserved. That is a blow lower than you can imagine. I could desribe in detail the emotions I felt, the tears I cried for your lost fellow Americans (amongst the other nations, mine included) and the rest. But I fear you have made up your mind, and to do so would prove fruitless if not make me look hypocritical in your eyes. Also the fact that you are in enough pain and I do not wish to prolong that.

I know nothing of these Chomsky and Falwell characters. If they are anti American, know that they are in the minority. The whole sane-thinking world is rooting for you, the American people.

I would pray for you, but I doubt that God is listening right about now, so instead I will continue to hope for the best, and wish you and your country well. Know that there are so many doing this.

I hope I have said all I need to. I dont wish to continue this personal attack on each other we seem to have had. Educate me, but do not make such hurtful and grossly inaccurate assumptions about me. You may understand what it feels like. I'd assume so from the way some high profile and some less high profile individuals are treating this.

Take care of you and your loved ones.

 

[speedracer]

I don't understand what Michael Moore's point is re: the fact that we originally trained Osama bin Laden.

We trained Osama bin Laden to commit acts of terrorism against the Soviets when they were invading Afghanistan. Should we not have intervened in this conflict? Should we have known that bin Laden would come back to bite us in the arse? Perhaps someone can clarify. Thanks.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Angela:

I never thought that you were a sympathizer.

I was simply shocked that you thought the attack was OBVIOUSLY not an "act of war". I just wanted to present why I thought it obviously was (or at least, why there was a case for it), and why it mattered.

In case you missed it, I did say this:

I for one DO NOT believe you condone the attacks, but I also don't think ours is a debate of mere semantics. Calling the attack an "act of war" is important, because it more directly leads to the U.S. Congress invoking Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution; it allows Congress to officially declare war, something that hasn't happened since World War II, I believe.

I did not and DO NOT believe you condoned the acts, and I hope you didn't take our discussion personally.

 

[melon]

I don't think that Michael Moore should be wholly dismissed. He makes very good commentary on workers' rights and the plight of the worker against corporate greed and expansionism. This article here is not necessarily reflective of his other work, but not everyone can be perfect 100% of the time. In this case, I do believe that the article he wrote is unnecessarily accusatory and in poor taste, considering the timing.

Noam Chomsky does what he always does: says what he feels without any care for what others think. That I can admire, but we obviously do not have to agree with him.

Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, on the other hand, are being the dumb fucks that they always are. I'm happy that, at least, the conservative "National Review" is exposing them for what they are almost all the time: hysterical, misguided extremists. This is neither the first, nor the last time they will shoot their mouths off. It's only unfortunate that bigots with Bibles are respected, while otherwise, they'd be lumped in a hate bloc along with the Aryan Nation and the KKK.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!