BBITW: U2 vs. The Rolling Stones

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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Uhhh, wasn't this thread supposed to be a discussion of who was the BBITW? I thought the "High Cost of Ticket Prices" thread was dead and gone.

Oh well. It is always nice to see a thread take on a life of their own.

By the way, The Stones certainly have U2 beat in the press conference department. Did anyone see the "Rolling Stone" blimp that they entered Van Cortland Park in?
WOW!!!
 
Originally posted by MrBrau1:
Who cares. This is the band that made records like Exile on Main Street, Sticky Fingers, and Let it Bleed. U2 may be the best Rock band, but the Stones are one of the best Rock & Roll bands of all time. Moolight Mile may just be the best song ever.





so are you saying that U2 is not one of the best bands of all time?
 
Ok, back to the original point of the thread here is some statistics for everyone to chew on. This is a comparison of U2 and Rolling Stone studio album sales and tour sales from 1987 to now. I break it up by comparing tours and albums that are close in time periods. All album and tour figures are WORLDWIDE figures. The first is 1987 to 1990.

U2 Albums: JOSHUA TREE over 20 million sold to date. at least 16 million sold from 1987 to 1990. RATTLE AND HUM over 11 million sold to date. At least 9 million sold 1988 to 1990.

Rolling Stone Albums: STEEL WHEELS 4 million sold to date.

U2 Tours: JOSHUA TREE TOUR(inc lovetown) 1987-1989 SHOWS: 157 , 48 stadiums and 109 arena's. GROSS: $72,655,145 ATTENDANCE: 3,985,470

Rolling Stones Tours: STEEL WHEELS 1989-1990 SHOWS: 116 Stadium shows GROSS: $171 million ATTENDANCE: 6 million
 
2nd time period 1991 to 1995

U2 albums: ACHTUNG BABY over 14 million sold to date, at least 12 million sold from 1991 to 1995. ZOOROPA over 7 million sold to date.

Rolling Stones albums: VOODOO LOUNGE over 4 million copies sold to date.

U2 tours: ZOO TV 1992-1993 (incl zooropa and zoomerang) SHOWS: 157 , 95 stadium shows 62 arena shows. GROSS: $158,284,018 ATTENDANCE: 5,360,010

Rolling Stones tours: VOODOO LOUNGE TOUR 1994-1995 SHOWS: 130 , 128 stadium 2 arena. GROSS: $319,499,638 ATTENDANCE: 6,375,892
 
3rd time period 1996 to 1999.

U2 albums: POP 5.5 million sold to date.

Rolling Stones albums: BRIDGES TO BABYLON 3 million sold to date.

U2 tours: POPMART TOUR 1997-1998 SHOWS: 93 Stadium Shows. GROSS: $171,677,024 ATTENDANCE: 3,935,936

Rolling Stones tours: BRIDGES TO BABYLON(incl no security tour 99') 1997-1999. SHOWS: 150 , 100 stadium 50 arena. GROSS: $337.2 million ATTENDANCE: 5.6 million.
 
4th time period from 2000 to 2002-2003

U2 albums: ALL THAT YOU CAN'T LEAVE BEHIND 10,850,000 copies sold to date. Unknown if U2 will release a new studio album in 2002-2003.

Rolling Stones albums: no studio album yet. Unknown if new studio album(all new material) will be released in 2002-2003

U2 tours: ELEVATION TOUR March 2001 to December 2001. SHOWS: 113 , 110 arena's 3 stadium. GROSS: $143 million ATTENDANCE: over 2 million. Unknown if U2 will tour in 2002-2003.

Rolling Stones tours: 40th Ann. Sept 2002-2003? SHOWS: still being formed at this time. At least 40 so far with 11 Stadiums and the rest Arena's and Theaters. More shows to come. GROSS: Unknown ATTENDANCE: Unknown
 
DINO RIDERS......

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"BONO'S PRAYER HEAVENS AIR"

ROCK, ROCK, ROCK, ROCK, ROCK&ROLL HIGH SCHOOL.
THE RAMONES
i dont want to be a pinhead no more.
 
Its important to realize that 80 out of the 113 shows of the ELEVATION tour were done in the USA and Canada alone. 33 shows were sprinkled across Europe.

Not knowing what demand would be like for U2 shows 4 years after POP, the band booked an Arena tour that would be easy to sell out anywhere and get good media coverage. The band had recieved a bashing from the media on POPMART in the USA for failing to sell every seat in several stadiums. For some reason, many people in the press deemed selling 40,000 tickets out of 50,000 a failure. But there were definitely a few real low turnout area's like Jacksonville and Tampa. All in all though, the POPMART tour is the Third highest grossing tour in WORLD HISTORY!

Its clear from the sellouts at high prices of every U2 arena show that the band could have done a stadium tour at a stadium price in 2001. U2 underplayed cities like New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Los Angelas, Chicago, and many others. Not to mention the band almost did not even touch Europe where playing stadiums would have been a cake walk. The ELEVATION tour was very successful, but an extended stadium tour would have been needed if U2 wanted to reach its entire concert fan base worldwide and achieve the highest possible Gross in under a year and a half.

So the Elevation tour does not represent U2s maximum GROSS and Ticket sales potential currently.

It remains to be seen if the new Rolling Stones tour will represent their maximum GROSS and Ticket sales potential currently because only 11 stadiums have been booked and most of the shows seem to be in Arena's and Theaters.
 
Blue Room,
Which Arena shows did not sellout on Elevation? Sure there were a few that did not attempt to sell seats behind the stage, but every show, by showtime had sold out all tickets that had been put on sale.

Struggling with 18,000 seats in Lexington is one thing, but how about the Rolling Stones who only sold 27,000 seats in Madison Wisconsin for a 60,000 seat stadium on the Bridges To Babylon tour! Tickest were only 60 dollars and 39 dollars for that Stones show. Not exactly the performance of a living legend!

Also, take the Rolling Stones own turf, the United Kingdom. The Stones failed to sellout Edinburgh, Leeds and just barely sold out the dates in London on the Bridges To Babylon tour! Also U2s POPMART shows in the United Kingdom had higher attendance and higher Grosses.

Although the Stadium prices for the Stones are between 50 dollars and 350 dollars, the average Stones price for the Stadium shows is 85 dollars. The average price for a U2 arena show is 80 dollars. U2 would have to charge a lower average price in the USA if they wanted to sellout most stadium shows. Its anyones guess what the prices would be, but for a U2 Stadium tour, I would guess the average price would be 60 dollars. The STones are charging 85 dollars, but then again, only 10 stadium shows have been listed so far. While the price range is the same for the smaller Arena's, I predict the average price will be higher, with more of the 300 dollar tickets rather than the 50 dollar ones. The only gift to the fans are the theater shows. www.ticketmaster.com has the price ranges for all shows.

So to sum up Paul was right. Not that any of these artist should feel guilty about what they charge. Its economics people. If your not going to make what your worth then someone else is going to. For the past 20 years U2 has charged what their market value is for each tour like every other artist in the industry, and I have yet to see any evidence to prove otherwise.
 
Originally posted by STING2:

The one treat though is those Theater shows that are priced at just 50 dollars. The Stones could probably charge 500 dollars a seat, for a 3,000 seat theater and sellout.
Those theater shows are gifts, but I fear scalpers are going to make big money if they get a hold of those tickets.

Scalpers can not get these theater tickets, as the entire show is will-call. If you'r lucky enough to get a pair, you get a letter, and you and your guest must show up, get your tix and proceed directly in to the show. Also for stadiums, the $350 "Gold Circle" tickets actually are "Gold Circle"...its strictly the 2 field sections in the middle front of stage, which include a ramp and small stage (where'd that idea come from?
wink.gif
)within those 2 sections. Everything else is $90 or $50. Including the other 4 field sections at stage front (there are 6 across, AA, A, B, C, D, and DD, but only B and C are $350.00, at least in Foxboro).
So actually I'm surprised and a bit pleased with the Stones price structure...they could have gone a lot higher.
 
Originally posted by STING2:
Its important to realize that 80 out of the 113 shows of the ELEVATION tour were done in the USA and Canada alone. 33 shows were sprinkled across Europe.

Not knowing what demand would be like for U2 shows 4 years after POP, the band booked an Arena tour that would be easy to sell out anywhere and get good media coverage. The band had recieved a bashing from the media on POPMART in the USA for failing to sell every seat in several stadiums. For some reason, many people in the press deemed selling 40,000 tickets out of 50,000 a failure. But there were definitely a few real low turnout area's like Jacksonville and Tampa. All in all though, the POPMART tour is the Third highest grossing tour in WORLD HISTORY!

Its clear from the sellouts at high prices of every U2 arena show that the band could have done a stadium tour at a stadium price in 2001. U2 underplayed cities like New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Los Angelas, Chicago, and many others. Not to mention the band almost did not even touch Europe where playing stadiums would have been a cake walk. The ELEVATION tour was very successful, but an extended stadium tour would have been needed if U2 wanted to reach its entire concert fan base worldwide and achieve the highest possible Gross in under a year and a half.

So the Elevation tour does not represent U2s maximum GROSS and Ticket sales potential currently.

It remains to be seen if the new Rolling Stones tour will represent their maximum GROSS and Ticket sales potential currently because only 11 stadiums have been booked and most of the shows seem to be in Arena's and Theaters.

Thanks for the info., Sting! A few comments and questions:
1. Did POP really only sell 5.5. million copies to date? I thought that POP was very successful, critically and commercially, in Europe. 5.5 million is probably considered groundbreaking for any other band on a worldwide basis. For U2, it is disappointing(according to Paul Mac, anything under 10million is disappointing--high standards!)

2. What do you think the cause of the Stones grossing more and having a greater attendance for their shows is? Is it strictly due to playing larger venues and charging more for tickets? Or do you think the Stones popularity and longevity is a main reason for this?

3. If POPMART is the 3rd highest grossing tours ever(is that worldwide?) what are #1 and #2? I assume Elevation and a recent Stones tour.

4. How bad were the tickets sales(comparitively speaking) for the Tampa and Jacksonville shows for POPMART? How many shows did U2 sellout for POPMART? I assume these lack of sellouts was due to the poor reception for POP here in the states.

Thanks again,
MBH

[This message has been edited by MBH (edited 05-09-2002).]

[This message has been edited by MBH (edited 05-09-2002).]
 
Originally posted by Hewson:
Originally posted by STING2:

The one treat though is those Theater shows that are priced at just 50 dollars. The Stones could probably charge 500 dollars a seat, for a 3,000 seat theater and sellout.
Those theater shows are gifts, but I fear scalpers are going to make big money if they get a hold of those tickets.

Scalpers can not get these theater tickets, as the entire show is will-call. If you'r lucky enough to get a pair, you get a letter, and you and your guest must show up, get your tix and proceed directly in to the show. Also for stadiums, the $350 "Gold Circle" tickets actually are "Gold Circle"...its strictly the 2 field sections in the middle front of stage, which include a ramp and small stage (where'd that idea come from?
wink.gif
)within those 2 sections. Everything else is $90 or $50. Including the other 4 field sections at stage front (there are 6 across, AA, A, B, C, D, and DD, but only B and C are $350.00, at least in Foxboro).
So actually I'm surprised and a bit pleased with the Stones price structure...they could have gone a lot higher.


Where did you here that info. regarding the club shows? How do you get those seats? Fanclub? I assume that the general public cannot purchase tix to the clubs? That sucks...so much for the "gift."
 
This was taken from an article from a daily circular in Sydney. It may explain a lot about the recent debates that have taken place on interference. Enjoy!


In recent years Australian promoters have been unable to
secure major tours such as those by U2 (Elevation tour)
and Madonna, because the parlous state of the dollar
has priced them out of the market.

The last major arena rock tour was by U2 (PopMart) in early 1998,
when 40,000 fans packed the Sydney Football Stadium.
 
MBH,
In response to your Question #1, yes POP only sold 5.5 million copies, but that was enough to rank in the top 20 worldwide for album sales in 1997. It was of course a lot less for U2 themselves.

Question #2, is it the Stones Popularity or venue and ticket price that causes them to have the highest totals? I believe venue, ticket price, are often a reflection of Popularity. Not really an either or question but there a few things to consider. U2 has often played arena's in the past to test what demand is like, when in fact they would have been better off playing Stadiums right away. The average Rolling Stones fan is 20 years older than the average U2 fan. The Rolling Stone fan is going to have more money. Despite that I still think overall the Stones have a slightly larger CONCERT fan base than U2, at least in the USA and Germany. But that does not mean the Stones are the BIGGER band. What determines who is the biggest is album sales and ticket sales! Notice ATYCLB alone has sold more than all 3 Stones studio albums in the past 15 years! U2 is a little behind the Stones in the concert stats, by WAY AHEAD when it comes to album sales. Thats why U2 has been the #1 band overall for the past 15 years. Do to the Stones low album sales, I'd place them in the top 20 but not the top 10. A new band like COLDPLAY with one album has stronger sales then the Stones!

Question #3 Yes these concert stats are Worldwide totals! POPMART is the 3rd highest grossing tour of all time. #1 is the Bridges To Babylon/no security tour. #2 is the Voodoo Lounge tour. Elevation is a short arena tour that played most of its shows in the United States. While Elevation is the #3 tour overall in the USA as far as GROSS, Worldwide its only about #10. BUT remember, it was an ARENA tour and not a stadium tour and played 80% of its shows in North America while leaving most of the worldmarket untouched.

Question #4 POPMART had 93 shows total. 51 of those shows were sellouts. 42 did not sellout. Remember were talking about 50,000 seat stadiums here, not 18,000 seat arena's! Most of the shows that did not sell out were in the United States. Attendance for Tampa was about 20,000 , for Jacksonville it was 15,000. But when the Stones played the same area several months later they chose to do only one show half way between Tampa and Jacksonville in ORLANDO. With only one show in the Area, the STONES still failed to sellout with only 30,000 people in attendance.
 
It should be mentioned that U2 and the POPMART tour have the highest paying attendance for a single show by a single artist! U2s show on the POPMART tour in Reggio Emilia Italy was a soldout performance to 150,000 Italians in 1997, the largest attendance for one artist ever in history! The Rolling Stones cancelled their only show in Italy on their last tour partly due to poor ticket sales.

While the Rolling Stones have the highest figures worldwide overall, there are many places where U2s concert figures are higher than the Stones. Here are the Countries where U2 beats the Stones in Concert Stats:

United Kingdom
Ireland
Spain
Portugal
Italy
Austria
Mexico
Brazil
Argentina
Chile
South Africa
Greece
Bosnia
Israel

Here is where the Stones and U2 are tied:

Switzerland
Hungery
Czech Rep.
Poland
Australia
Canada
Finland

Here is where the Stones beat U2 in concert performance:

United States
Japan
Germany
France
Belgium
Netherlands
Denmark
Norway
Sweden

Remember U2 on average beats the Stones in album sales by more than 4 to 1 in ALL the above countries.
 
My only comments here are that I've never been a fan of the Stones, and I love Zeppelin but probably prefer U2 overall...but I seriously doubt that U2 will ever be considered more important, or even as important, as those two bands. They haven't been as influential and I don't think they ever will be.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.



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See the bird with the leaf in her mouth
After the flood all the colours came out
 
A few other things, The Stones are the only band I can think of that sales half as many albums as they due concert tickets. Bottom line, most people at a Stones show do not even own the new album! Everyone(with a few exceptions) owns the new album at a U2 show, and there are nearly twice as many people with the new album that do not go or do not get to see U2 in concert.

While the Stones CONCERT figures overall in the USA are higher than U2s, they are still two cities in the USA that U2 owns over the Stones! Madison Wisconsin and BOSTON MA!
 
More influential does not neccessarily mean more important. If U2 continue for another 20 years, I do think they definitely have a shot at passing the Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin. U2 has done a multitude of things that Led ZEP and the Stones never did. Think about what the average person born today will think of this question in 20 years. Especialy since they might still get to see U2 in concert.
 
Originally posted by MBH:
Where did you here that info. regarding the club shows? How do you get those seats? Fanclub? I assume that the general public cannot purchase tix to the clubs? That sucks...so much for the "gift."
The info is on the ticketmaster purchase page , amongs other places. The General public can buy the theater tickets, though I suspect it will be a madhouse trying to get through. There are presales for which you have to join samgoody.com's getAccess club ($60), but from my experience with the Boston Orpheum pre-sale yesterday its a waste of time and money, samgoody/clear channel's server couldn't handle the traffic. The public onsale for Roseland (the one i assume you are interested in) is Monday 5-13 at 10AM.(correction, 9 AM)



[This message has been edited by Hewson (edited 05-10-2002).]
 
Personally I think Mick & Keef are still cool and the most recent Stones' albums aren't too bad. I think the Stones suffer from something they (the higher powers) describe as trying to exist in a generation that they created. The Stones mapped out a path that hundreds of bands have followed and therefore millions of fans. I am hoping to get some tickets for Chicago.

I also think it is cool how they're performing in small venues, large stadiums, and theatres. I've also heard they might do some shows at clubs unannounced. House of Blues beware
smile.gif


As for the big ol' question about U2 and the Stones... Stones are bigger. They always will be. U2 is one of the great rock bands, but The Stones is one of the great rock n' roll bands. Who needs the Beatles when you got the Rolling Stones?

~z~

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" You love this town - even if that doesn't ring true. You've been all over, and it's been all over you " - Bono

" Don't you know there ain't no Devil, that's just God when he's drunk " - Tom Waits
 
According to the Guinness Book of Records, Paul McCartney holds the record for largest attendance at a single show, with the number being 189,000 at the Maracana-stadium in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil (this might also give the answer to MBH's question about the biggest stadium in the world).
 
The Guinness Book of World records is incorrect on that point. That stadium in Rio saw its largest paying attendance by a single act by Frank Sinitra back in 1980 with 140,000 people. I'm not saying that Paul McCartney did not play there, the key question is did anyone open up for him, and was the concert free. If any of those things are true then that does not count in regards to this record. The Key here is paying audiance for a show by a single artist.

Follower might know how much that stadium holds since she is from there. Realize though that 1/3 to 1/2 of all seats in a stadium show are not used. To the best of my knowledge the stadium hold 180,000 for a soccer game. At least 1/3 of the seats are blocked out because of the stage though. If general admission is used on the field up to 30,000 can fit. So the max capicity of the Stadium is about 150,000 and most likely less. Frank Sinitra played there in 1980 to a paying audiance of 140,000.

I'd suggest a publication like Amusement Business which has been tracking the concert industry for 25 years now giving exact statistics as far as GROSS, Ticket Price, Attendance to all shows played in major venues through out the world. Billboard magazine published every week, is a music business magazine used by the whole industry and tracks album and single sales as well as airplay worldwide. Billboard magazine uses concert statistics from Amusement Business with their permission. I have found the Guinness Book of world records to be inaccurate on many of its facts especially ones that pertain to the music business.

But if you have info for this RIO show, was Paul McCartney the only artist on the bill? , What were the various ticket prices if the show was not free, what was the GROSS revenue if the show was a paying show, and a percise total as far as attendance. It should also list the promotor if necessary.

Both Amusement Business Magazine, and Billboard Magazine stated in 1997 that U2s POPMART performance at Reggio Emilia was the largest single paying concert for one artist on the bill in history.

By the way, U2 played a massive field for the record, sort of like the field around Slane this past year. There are pictures on the internet somewhere of arial shots of the crowd gathering on the field area before nightfall. Its massive!

I also have a dear friend from Italy who was at the show in Reggio Emilia. It was already known that this was going to be the biggest show ever by one artist worldwide. She says though that it could have been bigger because the limited tickets to the fenced in field guarded by security to 150,000. She thinks U2 could have played to well over 200,000 easy, but Italian security and government she thinks would not allow it.
 
Reggio Emilia September 20, 1997 Festival Site GROSS: $5,294,117 ATTENDANCE: 150,000

Those are the stats for the largest paying audiance at a single show by one artist. It was U2 on their POPMART tour in 1997. The statistics come from Amusement Business which has tracked the concert industry for 25 years worldwide. The show took place on an often used festival site, but U2 were the only band on the bill that day.
 
MBH,
Nearly 70% of all albums sold in the world are sold outside the USA! ALL THAT YOU CAN'T LEAVE BEHIND has sold about 11 million copies world wide so far. 4 million in the USA, 4 million in Europe, 500,000 in Canada and 2.5 million from other parts of the Globe.

Creeds third album has sold 5.9 million albums worldwide. 5 million in the USA, 900,000 copies outside the USA mainly from Canada and Australia. Its true that the 5 million figure in the USA might be closer to 6 million which would put the global total at 6.9 million, but from watching its sales it has not gotten much father beyond 5 million in the USA. The album has dropped out of the top 40 in the market that accounts for over 85% of its sales. Not a good sign for continued sales performance. Creed has also struggle a little filling arena's at low ticket prices and usually only has one show per market with no attempt to sell rear view seats. But who knows what the future has in store.
 
Sting,

The Guinness-book doesn't provide any additional info, just that Macca holds the record as the artist with the biggest ticket-buying attendance during one show.

As for the capacity of the stadium - I know for a fact that the Maracana stadium had an attendance of over 200,000 during a soccer-worldcup some decades ago (this was probably before seats became mandatory).
I think the key-question here is, whether the stadium had seats in 1990 when McCartney held the gig, or not?
 
Not that the guinness book does not ever report accurate info, but I'd be more likely to trust a publication that specializes on this part of the music business which is what Amusement Business does, rather than a book that has various facts and figures on unrelated topics.

In addition the fact of the U2 show was widely reported on the radio here in the USA and I have seen other evidence on the web, in addition to my Italian friend who was at the show.

Which volume of the Guinness Records was it? This is the first I have heard of this so I remain skeptical, especially in light of my info.
 
Regarding the "Biggest Bands of All-Time," when it comes to critics lists only The Beatles and The Stones are consistently rated above U2, with The Who, Led Zeppelin, and a few others in the mix as well. If U2's next album is really good, if its a hit with the masses like ATYCLB, then frankly there's probably a better argument for U2 as "Best Band Ever" than ANYONE (including those beloved Beatles). But that's not really what I wanted to bring up.

Give it 10 or 15 years. Right now most of the people in power when it comes to music mags and what not, they grew up on those aforementioned bands in the 60's and 70's. In 10 or 15 years that will shift to the children of the 80's and early 90's and likely push U2 up in those subjective lists.

And 15 years after that--25 years from now--we can look forward to Creed taking the torch in such discussions. ;-)
 
Hewson,
I actually do not thing the Stones could have gone higher in the Stadiums. Before this tour, the highest average ticket price in a stadium was just a little under 60 dollars. Remember on the Stones last tour, there were two ticket prices. One was 60 dollars for about 45,000 people and then tiny portion at the very back of the stadium, about 5,000 got in for 39.50.

It looks like now, that most tickets for this tour will be the 90 dollar ones, with about 5,000 in the nosebleeds for 50 bucks. I have seen reports that the average price in the 11 Stadium shows booked so far is 85 dollars. Thats nearly a 50% increase over 5 years ago, and I do not think the Stones could go any higher if they have any plans of doing multiple stadium shows in the same cities.

Remember that what U2 would charge in a stadium is less than what they would charge in an arena because there are more seats to fill. I expect the number of 350 dollar tickets to go up in the Arena's for the Stones. On the Stones last tour, average price was about 60 dollars in the stadium, but 100 dollars in the arena. We know the average price in the Stadiums for this tour is 85 dollars(the most ever for a stadium show by a 50% margin). I predict the average price in this tours Arena shows will be 150 dollars. But maybe the Arena's will turn out to be a gift is well. The stadiums ticket prices though are certainly not a gift, but thats ok because I think artist should charge their market value.
 
Creed is not even close to competing for any of these titles. Most people outside the United States do not even know who Creed is! Remember this is a question on a global scale with the opinions of Italians, Brazilians, Spanish, Irish, British, and others just as important as Americans.

Even in the USA where Creed is known, critics comments about the band are at best mixed. Compare that with U2 already in 1983 when critics were trying to get in bed with them.
Creed seems to have peaked with their second album as their third has not done as well. Their still really not very well known outside the USA and its at this point in the USA after having peaked, their popularity(several Creed arena shows did not sellout at only 40 dollar a ticket.) and critical approval in the USA are still mixed.
 
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