As this is war against terorism, should IRA and ETA be eliminated too?

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Marko

War Child
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I'm just wandering, the world declared war on terorism, not only muslim terorism. If we look at it that way than there should be some strong action against IRA and against ETA in Spain and France, as wall as persecution against all the people who helped them, like US citisens who are originaly from Ireland who for years sent money and arms to IRA.

What do you think about it?
 
now my mum (read my lips I said MUM!) said it was about time the Americans stopped funding the IRA.......I never knew why they did so, and she said it was cause they were believed in, the terrorists...............when really all that money went to buy more semtex, guns, etc...........

ya know???

anyway, thats what my mumsie said!!!!
 
Stop them all...

CK

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As this operation is mainly run by US military it is unlikely that they will extinguish this two piles of BS from the planet just because they were not involved in the actions of Sep 11. Though it would be niceof the US government to do so...

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beLIEve
 
Sperber I think so too. US would realy grow in my eyes if they encourage all nations to get rid of their terorists, and offcourse if they stop their support towards the IRA.
Shygirl, yes, there's no need to rush, but just do it in a month, year or 5 years, but do it
 
To play the Devil's Advocate...

Who defines a "terrorist"? I ask this because, 225 years ago, you could have labelled the American revolutionaries as "terrorists" for rebelling against the British Empire. Is there a line that can be drawn? A question I'd like to pose.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
 
I can see your point melon, but I think that it was a totally different time and the circumstances were alot different.. We were fighting for our independence, once we gained that it ended.. The american people are somewhat reasonable.. There is no reasoning with a mad man like Osama Bin Laden...
 
Shygirl I think that Melon doesn't say that for Bin Laden but for IRA - terorist is anyone who places a bomb in a pub full of civilians. I may sipatize Ireland, and I wish them their peace and their land, but IRA is a TERORIST organization, as well as ETA. ETA also has meny just ang good arguments, but their tactics is teroristic. That said, do youo think that Bin Laden has some just arguments? But his acting is totaly wrong and evil? I do think so, not precicely for bin laden but for muslims in middle east...
 
I do see your point Marko about the IRA.. I was too general in my remarks to melon..

To answer your question.. I do think there are some just arguments in the Middle East.. I'm not a expert on the subject,but it seems the USA hasn't exactly used its head when dealing with that part of the world..
Even though there may have been some valid arguments, it still doesn't make terroism right or noble..
 
The problem the US government has with its foreign policy are deeply rooted within its own history.As the became the worlds most powerful nation after WW1 it took only there action where its own interests were in danger. This is a part of the US policy even nowadays! This isn?t something they do on purpose it just is so... they just don?t see why they sould bother about some small countries somewhere in the middle east as long it has nothing to do with oil. That is the huge problem, they( the vast majority of the US citizens) can?t see the point why the world surrounding them is of any importance to them.

BTW This is only my opinion and not meant as a provocation to any of the readers!

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beLIEve
 
Well we are young interferences (100+ posts) and people here can sometimes be so not-tolerant(i'm trying not to be to hard) that I feel so too. There are some people that think like we do, but others atack us when we try to speak so it's unbarable...

but hey, so what, this is net, and I'll stick to my points of view

chears
 
Bin Laden and his organization need to be put out of business, without question. So do the IRA and every other organization that promotes change through violent action.

But that would only be part of the solution. Bin Laden is not the world's #1 financial sponsor of terrorism. He is not the world's #1 financial sponsor of brutal dictators and human rights abusers. He is not the world's leading supplier of nearly every form of lethal arms. The U.S. is. If the U.S. really wants to have any credibility whatsoever as a leader in stopping terrorism, it should stop training, supplying, and supporting (financially, diplomatically, and other) terrorists and human rights abusers (such as Bin Laden, a product of American assistance) who happen to favor its geopolitical and economic interests. The U.S. CAN stop terrorism worldwide if it is sincere about it - but the historical evidence is far to the contrary, I'm afraid. The other 4 permanent U.N. Security Council countries are also guilty to a lesser degree in this.

The issue of who gets classified as being a terrorist or a dictator is very relevant - I mean, Saddam Hussein is a "dictator", but Saudi Arabia's leader is a "king". Is there a difference? Same thing: what's a "guerrilla" and what's a "freedom fighter"?
 
In terms of the Muslim issue raised here, it is interesting how I never see the IRA referred to as "Christian terrorists" in the U.S. media. However, the terms "Islamic" and "terrorist" are unfairly and inextricably linked in U.S. media - a clear example of the systematic and prevalent bias we see in the American media.

Bin Laden is a terrorist who happens to be Muslim. McVeigh was a terrorist who happened to be Christian (I think). Hitler was a human rights abuser who happened to be Christian. A terrorist is a terrorist, whatever deluded justification he feels he has to be violent.
 
Here's something a little disturbing:

I have a friend who's a member of the IRA, and she insists that they're not a terrorist group, and, in fact, they never killed anyone.

Right.

Her mother is also friends with Gerry Adams.
 
Shygirl I'm not trying to justify them - they are wrong and they have to come to justice. I was just making a paralel betveen Muslim terorists and IRA and ETA.

Sperber I totlay agree with you on that!
 
Yep, I know these are harsh words but it feels good to know there are some people who agree with me!

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beLIEve
 
IRA?ETA?...terrorists?...yes they are.BUT there?s a diference between Bill Landen who kills in name of religion, because for islamics there are only to kind of people: the islamics and the no-islamics, and all the no-islamics are satan.This is a madness.
But IRA and ETA defense their country...I?m from Barcelona, I?m catalan, my national identity document says that I am spanish...fuck spanish!I?m not!Catalunya was attacked 200 years ago, as Euskadi, or Ireland by the English...
I know that a lot from you won?t understand me but when you are on the edge...you make crazy things.
But ...what is terrorism? because if we understand it as "making terror by killing and massacre and caos" there are a lot of governments that are terrorist organitzations.
Finally, I agree with the bombing on Agfanistan, islamics are very dangerous, due to there religion fanatism.
 
I just think that this terrorism problem is much to complicated to be fixed quickly..
We need to deal with the most threatening problems at hand and then go from there...

Hopefully the events of Sept 11th have really shaken up our government, so we really try to figure out a long term solution to this problem..
 
Originally posted by Jordi:

Finally, I agree with the bombing on Agfanistan, islamics are very dangerous, due to there religion fanatism.

I object. The majority of Muslims are not dangerous. To make a blanket statement like this is ignorant and dangerous. If you look at history, Islam, as a religion, is no more dangerous than any other, and Muslims, true Muslims, are very peaceful and loving.

We're raised in a Christian / atheist society, and to most people, other religions and schools of thought are considered quaint. "Aw, he's a Jew. Isn't that cute." "Look at that Muslim over there. Better hide!" We may not admit it, and, in fact, very few of us will acknowledge the fact that, in our society, we're programmed to believe that anything other than Christian is just a toy religion.

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I agree Not George Lucas. Islam is a very peaceful religion.. People shouldn't assume that all Muslims are bad and are terrorists... It's only a few within the group that cause the problems, and feel it is okay to kill in the name of God. I guess every group has their "bad seed"
 
I don?t agree with you Not George Lucas,.It?s obvious that not all Muslims are bad, and not all christians ara good...I have not said this, I?ve said that Islamic religion is dangerous, because muslim people (in general) does think that whatever thing that is not shaped in their religion is bad, that?s why they are dangerous.Muslims are people easy to control, easy to drive, thanks to their religion...this is what I was trying to say
(I do my best with my English!)
 
Jordi - Nothing personal, but it's amazing how little of Spanish history you remember - it's truly laughable that someone from Spain is spewing this rhetoric about Muslims being "different" in terms of being "driven" by religion to do terrible things. Christopher Columbus and the Spanish of the 1400s/1500s are excellent examples of "Christian terrorists", deluded individuals who were out to kill, conquer, and pillage for their own benefit, and used religion as their excuse. They also motivated their army to do awful deeds using terminology couched in religion, if you would take the time to read the original documents they made. The entire history of the last 500 years in Central and South America is the history of those maniacs establishing brutal imperialistic regimes under the pretense of bringing Christianity to the world. In many of these areas, they committed flagrant and incredibly efficient acts of genocide - for example, the Arawaks (one of the most peaceful societies in history) of the Caribbean islands were nearly 100% wiped out by them, and in incredibly cruel fashion. So one can hardly accuse the Muslims of being "different" or more likely to be "blinded" by religion. With all due respect, I think you should incorporate some new and different sources into your reading, as your perspective will likely change quite a bit as you become more educated about Muslims, and about the history of your country.

Or should we discuss the Spanish Inquisition? . . .
 
I agree with Not George Lucas.There are extremists in every religion and these cause more harm than good usually however you can't generalise people as being bad or good because of there religion.The majority of Muslims are good people and there faith is peaceful however you get extremists like Bin Laden who kill the innocent or the Iranian government who renewed the fatwa on Salman Rushdie in February.Christian extremists have killed many people in the past and although it was not entirely religious the Nazis did want rid of the Jews.These are all the work of extemists and not the ordinary people in these religions so please do not blame all muslims.

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Sometimes it is necessary to touch bottom in order to know which way is up
 
SV....jajjajaja...you have made me laugh a lot!
two things...I believe in God but I?m not practicant Christian
second...I don?t consider me Spanish! I ?m only CATALAN...
I had to say this,,,but have you read me? All extremism are bad, fanatism is dangerous...I don?t defense Crhristian killing in the name of GOd...of course not!All the Spanish Conquerers were killers,from Pizarro to Colon or Elcano...but what do you want to talk about? about terrorism nowadays? or the persecution in the 1492 era?where are you from? if you are american I can talk you about the killing of indian people...that now are in reserves ( the few who stay), if you are german I can talk you about Nazism, if you are European I can talk you about colonism...do I have to continue?
Do you know Catalunya? this is my country...attacked in 1714 for spanish army, destroying all they saw, trying to fire our culture, language, costums...and you talk me about Spainish "in the name of gog" killing?
dop you know that catalan people had forbidden to go to the America?s?
don?t call me spanisj again, thank you
I wait your answer.....
but all this don?t justificate Muslim obsessed religion...and if you say that they are not dangerous, you don?t meet them quite..cos I repeat you...they consider that if you are not muslim you are and "infidel"...
 
Fighting for religon? Bollocks. I'm sorry for what has happened in America, I truly am. But I've been surrounded by terrorism for 23 years. People in America have had it for a month. WHat happend in America was on an unprecedented scale, it was sickening, it made me cry but I've kind of had to grow a thick skin. People I knew have been killed in the name of religion. The really ironic thing is they were all Catholic and correct me if I'm wrong so are the IRA? And where did they get the money to buy the guns that shot the bullets and the semtex that ripped apart my friends and my life? America. There is a sense of irony that now it has happened on American soil, guilt comes over and pats people on the back and saying your just as bad as the people flying those planes, what a great cause you were supporting, well done, innocent people thanks to your support are now in their graves. So please don't talk about terrorism like you know it. You don't
And now people are saying now were after Bin Laden, lets go after the IRA. Why wasn't this on the agenda 30 years ago? How many lives could have been saved then?
 
Jordi -

1. Your national origin and chosen faith are not the issue here, and it hardly matters to me what you want to call yourself - a human is a human. But it's so interesting that you seem to harbor a lot of resentment against the Spanish, and yet you still see their actions as fundamentally different from those of Muslims. I just can't see how militant Islamic fundamentalists are any different from militant Christian fundamentalists.

2. The point of my last post was to refute this dangerous and invalid quote that you made (read your previous post): "Islamic religion is dangerous, because muslim people (in general) does think that whatever thing that is not shaped in their religion is bad, that?s why they are dangerous.Muslims are people easy to control, easy to drive, thanks to their religion...". The point is that Muslims are no more easy to control/drive and are no less tolerant of others than people of any other faith. The most obvious example of non-Muslims that drew upon religion to justify their violent actions was the domestic (Inquisition) and foreign (invasions, etc.) policy of Spanish Christians.

Again, no offense intended, but it amazes me that the prism through which you have been conditioned to view the world leads you to believe that Islamic peoples are any more prone to violence, despite abundant historical evidence demonstrating that people of nearly every major religion have used religion to justify their violent and selfish actions.

3. Not that it should matter, but for your info I am not Muslim and I have no particular beef against Christianity either. As I said, similar examples can be found for nearly all major religions. I do have a problem with any suggestion that the billion peace-loving Muslims of the world are any more prone to violence that anyone else. I suggest you read the Koran yourself and determine if rational people are likely to be "driven" to violence by this book.

SV
 
And as for not knowing Muslims, I have at least 15 good personal friends that are Muslim. Every one of them deplores violence and terrorism.
 
Dublin Phil!

I didn't start this thread b/c I just remembered that there are terorists in Ireland too. I'm thinking just like you do - I wanted to show the irony that comes to mind when US is talking about world's war against terorism now when they were attacked, and before they even financed a lot of this groups. Some groups financed US government (Talibans for instance), and other american people - IRA.

Jordi - I see where's your anger coming from. You're not alowed to go tu US? Why? And I also think that Catalunia shoul get at least some kind of autonomy. BUT here we're talking about terorism - adn terorist is s terorist wether he is Muslim or Chatolic. There's no diference. Muslims as people are generaly peacefull, and most important book of theirs - kuran - promotes peace above all. The sad thing is that these groops take a sentance out of the context and than make it their chant and main objective. Same thing could be taken out of the Bible - take "eye for an eye..." from old testament for instance...
world should be free of them all, but it's sad that all world is going to fight them only when US say that the time has come...
 
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