As this is war against terorism, should IRA and ETA be eliminated too? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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Old 10-09-2001, 09:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jordi:

Finally, I agree with the bombing on Agfanistan, islamics are very dangerous, due to there religion fanatism.
I object. The majority of Muslims are not dangerous. To make a blanket statement like this is ignorant and dangerous. If you look at history, Islam, as a religion, is no more dangerous than any other, and Muslims, true Muslims, are very peaceful and loving.

We're raised in a Christian / atheist society, and to most people, other religions and schools of thought are considered quaint. "Aw, he's a Jew. Isn't that cute." "Look at that Muslim over there. Better hide!" We may not admit it, and, in fact, very few of us will acknowledge the fact that, in our society, we're programmed to believe that anything other than Christian is just a toy religion.

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Old 10-09-2001, 12:46 PM   #22
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I agree Not George Lucas. Islam is a very peaceful religion.. People shouldn't assume that all Muslims are bad and are terrorists... It's only a few within the group that cause the problems, and feel it is okay to kill in the name of God. I guess every group has their "bad seed"
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Old 10-09-2001, 01:02 PM   #23
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I donīt agree with you Not George Lucas,.Itīs obvious that not all Muslims are bad, and not all christians ara good...I have not said this, Iīve said that Islamic religion is dangerous, because muslim people (in general) does think that whatever thing that is not shaped in their religion is bad, thatīs why they are dangerous.Muslims are people easy to control, easy to drive, thanks to their religion...this is what I was trying to say
(I do my best with my English!)
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Old 10-09-2001, 04:03 PM   #24
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Jordi - Nothing personal, but it's amazing how little of Spanish history you remember - it's truly laughable that someone from Spain is spewing this rhetoric about Muslims being "different" in terms of being "driven" by religion to do terrible things. Christopher Columbus and the Spanish of the 1400s/1500s are excellent examples of "Christian terrorists", deluded individuals who were out to kill, conquer, and pillage for their own benefit, and used religion as their excuse. They also motivated their army to do awful deeds using terminology couched in religion, if you would take the time to read the original documents they made. The entire history of the last 500 years in Central and South America is the history of those maniacs establishing brutal imperialistic regimes under the pretense of bringing Christianity to the world. In many of these areas, they committed flagrant and incredibly efficient acts of genocide - for example, the Arawaks (one of the most peaceful societies in history) of the Caribbean islands were nearly 100% wiped out by them, and in incredibly cruel fashion. So one can hardly accuse the Muslims of being "different" or more likely to be "blinded" by religion. With all due respect, I think you should incorporate some new and different sources into your reading, as your perspective will likely change quite a bit as you become more educated about Muslims, and about the history of your country.

Or should we discuss the Spanish Inquisition? . . .
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Old 10-10-2001, 03:25 AM   #25
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I agree with Not George Lucas.There are extremists in every religion and these cause more harm than good usually however you can't generalise people as being bad or good because of there religion.The majority of Muslims are good people and there faith is peaceful however you get extremists like Bin Laden who kill the innocent or the Iranian government who renewed the fatwa on Salman Rushdie in February.Christian extremists have killed many people in the past and although it was not entirely religious the Nazis did want rid of the Jews.These are all the work of extemists and not the ordinary people in these religions so please do not blame all muslims.

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Old 10-10-2001, 07:27 AM   #26
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SV....jajjajaja...you have made me laugh a lot!
two things...I believe in God but Iīm not practicant Christian
second...I donīt consider me Spanish! I īm only CATALAN...
I had to say this,,,but have you read me? All extremism are bad, fanatism is dangerous...I donīt defense Crhristian killing in the name of GOd...of course not!All the Spanish Conquerers were killers,from Pizarro to Colon or Elcano...but what do you want to talk about? about terrorism nowadays? or the persecution in the 1492 era?where are you from? if you are american I can talk you about the killing of indian people...that now are in reserves ( the few who stay), if you are german I can talk you about Nazism, if you are European I can talk you about colonism...do I have to continue?
Do you know Catalunya? this is my country...attacked in 1714 for spanish army, destroying all they saw, trying to fire our culture, language, costums...and you talk me about Spainish "in the name of gog" killing?
dop you know that catalan people had forbidden to go to the Americaīs?
donīt call me spanisj again, thank you
I wait your answer.....
but all this donīt justificate Muslim obsessed religion...and if you say that they are not dangerous, you donīt meet them quite..cos I repeat you...they consider that if you are not muslim you are and "infidel"...
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Old 10-10-2001, 07:46 AM   #27
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Fighting for religon? Bollocks. I'm sorry for what has happened in America, I truly am. But I've been surrounded by terrorism for 23 years. People in America have had it for a month. WHat happend in America was on an unprecedented scale, it was sickening, it made me cry but I've kind of had to grow a thick skin. People I knew have been killed in the name of religion. The really ironic thing is they were all Catholic and correct me if I'm wrong so are the IRA? And where did they get the money to buy the guns that shot the bullets and the semtex that ripped apart my friends and my life? America. There is a sense of irony that now it has happened on American soil, guilt comes over and pats people on the back and saying your just as bad as the people flying those planes, what a great cause you were supporting, well done, innocent people thanks to your support are now in their graves. So please don't talk about terrorism like you know it. You don't
And now people are saying now were after Bin Laden, lets go after the IRA. Why wasn't this on the agenda 30 years ago? How many lives could have been saved then?
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Old 10-10-2001, 10:59 AM   #28
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Jordi -

1. Your national origin and chosen faith are not the issue here, and it hardly matters to me what you want to call yourself - a human is a human. But it's so interesting that you seem to harbor a lot of resentment against the Spanish, and yet you still see their actions as fundamentally different from those of Muslims. I just can't see how militant Islamic fundamentalists are any different from militant Christian fundamentalists.

2. The point of my last post was to refute this dangerous and invalid quote that you made (read your previous post): "Islamic religion is dangerous, because muslim people (in general) does think that whatever thing that is not shaped in their religion is bad, thatīs why they are dangerous.Muslims are people easy to control, easy to drive, thanks to their religion...". The point is that Muslims are no more easy to control/drive and are no less tolerant of others than people of any other faith. The most obvious example of non-Muslims that drew upon religion to justify their violent actions was the domestic (Inquisition) and foreign (invasions, etc.) policy of Spanish Christians.

Again, no offense intended, but it amazes me that the prism through which you have been conditioned to view the world leads you to believe that Islamic peoples are any more prone to violence, despite abundant historical evidence demonstrating that people of nearly every major religion have used religion to justify their violent and selfish actions.

3. Not that it should matter, but for your info I am not Muslim and I have no particular beef against Christianity either. As I said, similar examples can be found for nearly all major religions. I do have a problem with any suggestion that the billion peace-loving Muslims of the world are any more prone to violence that anyone else. I suggest you read the Koran yourself and determine if rational people are likely to be "driven" to violence by this book.

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Old 10-10-2001, 11:01 AM   #29
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And as for not knowing Muslims, I have at least 15 good personal friends that are Muslim. Every one of them deplores violence and terrorism.
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Old 10-10-2001, 11:51 AM   #30
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Dublin Phil!

I didn't start this thread b/c I just remembered that there are terorists in Ireland too. I'm thinking just like you do - I wanted to show the irony that comes to mind when US is talking about world's war against terorism now when they were attacked, and before they even financed a lot of this groups. Some groups financed US government (Talibans for instance), and other american people - IRA.

Jordi - I see where's your anger coming from. You're not alowed to go tu US? Why? And I also think that Catalunia shoul get at least some kind of autonomy. BUT here we're talking about terorism - adn terorist is s terorist wether he is Muslim or Chatolic. There's no diference. Muslims as people are generaly peacefull, and most important book of theirs - kuran - promotes peace above all. The sad thing is that these groops take a sentance out of the context and than make it their chant and main objective. Same thing could be taken out of the Bible - take "eye for an eye..." from old testament for instance...
world should be free of them all, but it's sad that all world is going to fight them only when US say that the time has come...
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Old 10-11-2001, 05:25 AM   #31
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Hi again! SV and Marko...
I agree with you that any terrorist has to be punished, wherever he is from, or whatever religion or politics he is...
but, I donīt know if I canīt make me understand writing in English, what I try to say is...that NOWADAYS (not 1492) Christian religion has evolutioned, maybe the occidental society has evolutioned, but itīs is a crazy idea that any occidental society is going to fight for their religion, but thatīs not what happens with muslims....
Koran as the Biblia is a peaceful and spiritual b holy book, but HOW they interpret it?Which is the meaning they give it to it? HOLY WAR is the easiest way to drive people, to die defending muslim religion will take you to God...????????
SV I do know muslim friends too here, but they are not in a muslim society, they are muslims who live in a occidental people, that changes the focus.
And I critizise this as much as I critise what europeans made in the past in the name of crhistian religion.

Marko...yes!I from Catalunya, we are not military opressed, but we have been occupied since 1714, it seemed that in 1933 when E.R. (republican left) won buy high majority the elections Catalunya will be a free country again but in 1936 it was the spanish civil war won by dictator Franco who persecuted all kind of catalan culture.He send a lot of inmigration to Catalunya like a way to finish with the language...nowadays catalan and spanish are both oficial languages in Catalunya, but it will be very dificult to become again a free country because of the inmigration...if there are 6 million people in Catalunya, more than 3 million have foreign origin.some have asapted here but majority not.

and ah!we can travel to the USA...it was in 1492 that catlan people was forbidden to go to South America...why? to donīt allow catalan to make business.

bye!...
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Old 10-12-2001, 03:18 AM   #32
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hi ladies and gents, i'm a new interferencer, so bear with me. first, i'd like to say, excellent thread. jordi, hey not to bash you, but it is about 1492. it is about 1942. it is about 2001. the nature of humanity and all of it's institutions is to cnstantly change. you know the expression. all religious institutions ebb and flow. from fundamentalist extremism to liberal tolerance. depending on many factors. just because at this moment in history christianity (in general, i'm not refering to extremists-as we know they will always exist) is playing the peace loving tolerant card. all it will take is a threat from a common enemy, fear, and devisive rhetoric and the pendulum can very likely swing the other way. we are no different. just in a different place right now.
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