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Old 08-01-2004, 01:46 AM   #1
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AIDS in Africa. Is Bono fighting the wrong fight?

He is going on every show in American, and the world, stating,no in fact begging, that American get their best pharmaceuticals to Africa to solve the HIV and AIDS problem.

The problem is this:

Anthony Robbins, Deepak Chopra, Gary Null, Peter Duesberg and a growing number of other world respected health professionals believe that HIV drugs.....

are the real killers.

They believe that "HIV" is harmless and that AIDS is completely not what the West believes it to be, and that people in Africa are dying of Malaria and malnutrion and a host of other diseases that have been infecting that continent for many, many years.

Has Bono talked to the Robbins, Chopra, Null, Duesberg camp?

Or is he so wrapped up in what he is doing that he refuses to accept an alternative argument?

Just food for thought.
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Old 08-01-2004, 02:00 AM   #2
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Wouldn't a weakened immune system, only magnify the amount of diseases, make people more susceptible to disease, and cause faster deaths?

But...people in America, other wealthy nations, have died from HIV and AIDS, well not specifically from AIDS, but because AIDS weakens or wipes out the immune system, a cold, could kill a person with the advance stages of it.

Maybe I'm cynical, but health professionals, I mean, if they're linked to the pharmacuetical companies, and Bono's saying to make generic drugs available to African countries stricken with AIDS and HIV, (which would hurt company profits), maybe they're not being completey straightforward.

Bono's also been hinting, maybe there's a slight racial issue here,

"people in Africa are dying of Malaria and malnutrion and a host of other diseases that have been infecting that continent for many, many years."

So because it's been like that, we shouldn't do something to help?

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Old 08-01-2004, 02:39 AM   #3
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From what he's been saying all along about the AIDS crisis, I've gathered that his passion is ignited by frustration. Racism, in my own opinion, is certainly an issue here.

I do some work for DATA myself and through the responses I've gotten when I go to speak or alert people of the cause, I'm usually met with some kind of reluctance. When I question them as to why they don't consider this issue an emergency, the general consensus is that the victims of this disease "cannot be related to."

Perhaps the reason it seems that Bono is getting nowhere in this uphill battle of his is merely the general reluctance that people, especially people in power and world leaders, have surrounding this issue. The word "emergency" has been toned down so much to them, they just don't get it.

I may just be cynical, like thrillme mentioned, but I don't see Fair Trade or AIDS medications being brought to the continent any time soon. An even bigger goal is debt relief which is, I think, the most difficult issue at hand. What is good, though, is that Bono and DATA have been extremely persistent with these issues. It's difficult in an election year to get Americans to care about any issue not dealing with America, and most Americans don't understand what an important role we play in the lives of millions.

It's tough. But I think Bono is going through the right people and saying the right things. He's a pesky little bugger with a loud and relevant voice -- and that's what the people of Africa need.
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Old 08-01-2004, 10:57 AM   #4
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Re: AIDS in Africa. Is Bono fighting the wrong fight?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hitman


The problem is this:

Anthony Robbins, Deepak Chopra, Gary Null, Peter Duesberg and a growing number of other world respected health professionals believe that HIV drugs.....

are the real killers.

They believe that "HIV" is harmless and that AIDS is completely not what the West believes it to be, and that people in Africa are dying of Malaria and malnutrion and a host of other diseases that have been infecting that continent for many, many years.
Not to start an argument here, and I will concede that maybe HIV could have been harmless/ dormant to or in humans in the past. And in most cases, HIV/AIDS doesn't kill the person infected. Outside infections do, but because the body has no defense, they die. However, that doesn't mean HIV is harmless.

I think Bono is fighting the good fight. He is fighting for what he believes in. Even if what those health care professionals say is true, the fact remains that a lot of people are dying from this. Medication has atleast prolonged their lives, and given them a better quality of life. I've seen evidence of that. I haven't seen proof that the medications are the killers.
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Old 08-01-2004, 11:37 AM   #5
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thrillme, Keocmb, ylimeU2 -

If I had more time right now, I would post something to support y'all!

But I'm going to a meeting on The ONE Campaign this afternoon.

And Hitman - the REAL killers of people with HIV/AIDS are the INSENSITIVE ATTITUDES like yours and others who turn their heads around and refuse to accept the OBVIOUS deaths of millions of people and the orphaned children they leave behind!

We're ONE, but we're not the same. We get to carry each other.
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Old 08-01-2004, 12:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamila
thrillme, Keocmb, ylimeU2 -

If I had more time right now, I would post something to support y'all!

But I'm going to a meeting on The ONE Campaign this afternoon.

And Hitman - the REAL killers of people with HIV/AIDS are the INSENSITIVE ATTITUDES like yours and others who turn their heads around and refuse to accept the OBVIOUS deaths of millions of people and the orphaned children they leave behind!

We're ONE, but we're not the same. We get to carry each other.
The real killers are insensitive attitudes like mine? Are you serious? Why, because I choose to queston the truth/propaganda that is fed to me?

Do you know that the #1 side effect of AZT is a weakened immune system, and if taken for long enough that AZT will effectively KILL your immune system? Many, many people including Anthony Robbins and MYSELF are against these drugs which are in the business of making money!

My statement was not to let people die, so for you to say I have an insensitive attitude is ludicrous. My statement was....

what is Bono fighting for? Is he being a glorified pharmaceutical sales rep for AZT, a drug that MANY people believe is a killer worse than AIDS?
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Old 08-01-2004, 12:07 PM   #7
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Jamila -- No need to attack Hitman per se, may just be trying to get other opinions.
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Old 08-01-2004, 12:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hitman
what is Bono fighting for? Is he being a glorified pharmaceutical sales rep for AZT, a drug that MANY people believe is a killer worse than AIDS?
It's true that AZT is one of the more toxic and oldest AIDS drugs on the market. It's also still ON the market, whereas nearly every other drug from that era has been discontinued as useless.

Hitman, I don't know what your own experience with AIDS may be; so please accept my apology if you yourself are HIV+ or you have friends/family who are.

My family was ripped apart by AIDS in the mid 1980s; we were all part of several "investigational" tests at that time which included bone marrow transplants, new drugs which at that time included AZT and a few others which no longer exist on the market for their ineffectuality. I myself am not HIV+ after many tests. Many of my friends still are; many have since died. I've been watching all of this with close interest and involvement since 1986 and the words "He has AIDS..." gutted me.

AZT is not perfect. I know that too well. But it is better than nothing at all, in these direst of times.

--It is proven to stop mother-to-fetus transmission.

--It is proven to diminish the viral load in infants and toddlers to the point of undetectable virus counts.

--It is what can be gotten at this time with the money that is available.

There will be more, and better drugs later, to get them there will happen and soon. But AZT is what is available now, so we must get it there -- this is an emergency and the fire is burning closer with every breath -- we cannot stop right now to quibble over whether to douse it with sewer water or Evian, the point is to put it out and deal with the smaller - but still serious, I am not at all denying your very valid point of the side effects, I have watched them for myself -- problems after the fire is put out.
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Old 08-01-2004, 12:49 PM   #9
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I am not HIV+. I am a healthy 27 year old who does a lot of reading and is interested by the dynamics of the pharmaceutical industry.

AIDS is a big, big business. There are many, many people who believe that the current methodology of treating people with HIV "Cocktails" is poisonous...

and that the people living are the ones who are not taking it.

Somehow, in my opinion, sending a whole bunch of our "AIDS Cocktails" to Africa would be a bit like sending a whole bunch of umbrellas to a nation in the middle of a vicious hurricane.

There are many things causing the situation in Africa, and whole lot of drugs from American pharmaceutical companies isn't going to solve the problem.
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Old 08-01-2004, 01:16 PM   #10
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I've read quite a bit about this "HIV doesn't equal AIDS" theories and I believe that they are wrong.

I've known people with HIV. With NO medicine in them whatsoever, no "recreational drugs" and no alcohol, one friend's T-cell count was dangerously low, not long after being diagnosed.

He went on anti-viral medicines and not only did the HIV count decrease to undetectable levels, but his CD4 count raised to healthy levels.

Time after time, I have read stories or personally heard stories of men about to die, only to take anti-viral drugs - drugs targeted to HIV - and recover. People on their deathbeds now leading normal lives.

The drugs aren't without their problems, mind you. There are always side effects. But with no drugs, we have the devastation we see in Africa.

The scientists you cited often say that the men who died of AIDS in the 70's and 80's really did so because of their lifestyles: recreational drugs, alcohol, overall poor health. These scientists further claim that drugs like AZT really did them in. But there were plenty of people who died before AZT became available - and these people did not take recreational drugs or lead wild lifestyles. How does one explain their deaths?

The people in Africa have had to battle the diseases you mentioned for decades, if not centuries. But only recently, with HIV spreading throughout the continent (and the world), have these people been dying so young and so quickly.

More advances in science have proven many of the statements that these scientist claim are in error. For example, there is now proof of the actual virus. And there is far more evidence of the virus leading to AIDS.

One could make the same argument about HIV with regards to all viruses. Is there actual proof that the supposed chicken pox virus causes chicken pox? Maybe kids (and some adults) are just leading "wild lifestyles" and its the drugs that cause the disease. The same could be said about flu and hepatitis. Without HIV, people almost never get AIDS. In fact, there are but a few token cases of AIDS without HIV (and those few cases might have been "mistakes", i.e., proper testing for the virus wasn't performed). But with HIV, there is AIDS.

So unless science makes a major discovery, I think the funds are in the right place as is Bono's work.
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Old 08-01-2004, 02:18 PM   #11
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"AIDS in Africa. Is Bono fighting the wrong fight? "

YES, he is fighting the wrong fight.

Cheers,

J
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Old 08-01-2004, 02:23 PM   #12
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Hey it is Cheers J! The guy who claimed that Bono was a pedophile! I haven't been hanging around U2 boards in a while but I have missed you!

Cheers,

Hitman
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Old 08-01-2004, 02:47 PM   #13
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hmm.. As a healthcare professional (RN - Critical Care) I've taken care of many HIV/AIDS patients and since I'm also pretty "green" still (I'm 27) I didn't see the horrors that other older RN's talk about when encountering AIDS patients in the 80's/early 90's - the disease is a nasty one - there is nothing kind about it - only in recent years, with the help of the "cocktail" of medications have indivduals with HIV/AIDS been able to lead a semi-normal life. Yes, AZT is not a cure for AIDS but it does help "starve off" the disease - should everyone with HIV be able to have it? You bet. It is, at this point, one of the most potent antiviral drugs we have. Does it have side effects that weaken the immune system - yep- but you have to pick your poision is this case and AIDS is far worse
I've had the experience of being with several patietns when they have passed away from AIDS - it is frustrating/horrible/sad - no one deserves to die that way - and remember that when I'm taking care of these people I have every medical comfort I could ask for within arms reach. I cannot even fathom what people in underdeveloped countries experience.
So, long story short, Bono is fighting an uphill battle but one that needs to be fought
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Old 08-01-2004, 03:32 PM   #14
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As tragic as it is, the real war on AIDS in Africa is not going to be won with billions being poured into drugs until we can stop the rate of infection. As Bono stated on his trip with Paul O'Neill 2 years ago, an entire generation is gone- there are kids and grandparents, but the others have mostly died. Now I see in the paper reports that it is spreading among teenagers as young girls trade sex to 40 year old men for CD's and other items. This has GOT to stop! Somebody needs to go over there and get to the kids young and educate them about how this is spread. Once they're already sick, the drugs may help for awhile, but it is not going to cure them. Billions will be spent, millions will die, millions more new infections, then more billions will be needed, it will be a never ending battle that only ends in defeat!

Also, sadly, though I support debt relief, it's not going to help the people of the country until the govenments use it correctly, which in some countries is not going to happen. We have to get to the root of the problem which is the spread of AIDS and new infections, because if we don't, another generation is lost and all the money in the world isn't going to help.
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Old 08-01-2004, 03:42 PM   #15
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Addressing Hitman's claim that they have been dying for years- no, I'm not going to bash you. It's true. That doesn't make it any less tragic, but that has been the life cycle of the continent for centuries. It happens in the humans as it happens in antelope herds, it's part of nature. It's only because we know about it now that it has become so tragic, and of course as everyone has said, AIDS only makes it worse because of weakened immune systems.

A guy I know said this to me, and heartless as it sounds, it makes sense: he said, Bono says 10 million lives could be saved, and the guy said, so if they're saved, where are they going to live, work, and go to school? Who's going to feed them? Where are they all going to go? Because it has been so much a part of the natural order of things for so long, if you suddenly saved them all, it would create other problems the countries are not prepared to deal with. You can't hope to turn them all into US and UK type economic systems overnight. That didn't work for Russia, and it's nto going to work there.

One last thing: I have heard some Africans, or African Americans, including actor Tim Reid, express sadness that the term "Africa" is being used in a way that perpetuates negative stereotypes and bad images. Especially hated is the 'entire continent being flushed down the toilet' comment. As they point out, there are millions of healthy, productive, average people in Africa, in large cities, in rural towns, living normal lives. But because there is such a problem of poverty and sickness in other places, it all gets labeled that way, and that hurts the self image of the people and the areas who are trying to advance in the world. So maybe even labeling the whole cause as "Africa" and "help Africa" is just as offensive to these people as some 'racial' throwoffs might be.
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Old 08-01-2004, 03:54 PM   #16
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The antiretroviral drugs that the USA harbors are ones that could potentially increase the longevity of the lives of people living with HIV and AIDS. Nothing is going to cure AIDS, at least not yet, but the damage that has been done to thousands of African families, splitting children from their mothers and fathers, is what is key. Thousands of orphans are orphans because of AIDS and unless debt relief and fair trade is established within their lifetime, the nations of Africa have a very uncertain future.

By prolonging the lives of Africans, we're not only offering drugs that we take for granted, but we're also increasing the chances for better things, politically, to be brought to the continent.

As for Hitman's information about AZT drugs harming the immune system, I'm not really entitled to comment because I haven't looked into them in depth. But what I do know is that the drugs that the millions of HIV+ people who use these drugs have had a more beneficial life than if they were not on them.
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Old 08-01-2004, 07:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Keocmb
The antiretroviral drugs that the USA harbors are ones that could potentially increase the longevity of the lives of people living with HIV and AIDS. Nothing is going to cure AIDS, at least not yet, but the damage that has been done to thousands of African families, splitting children from their mothers and fathers, is what is key. Thousands of orphans are orphans because of AIDS and unless debt relief and fair trade is established within their lifetime, the nations of Africa have a very uncertain future.

By prolonging the lives of Africans, we're not only offering drugs that we take for granted, but we're also increasing the chances for better things, politically, to be brought to the continent.

As for Hitman's information about AZT drugs harming the immune system, I'm not really entitled to comment because I haven't looked into them in depth. But what I do know is that the drugs that the millions of HIV+ people who use these drugs have had a more beneficial life than if they were not on them.
'HIV' does not exist and 'AIDS' in Africa is the reclassification of TB, malaria, malnutrition and diseases/conditions relating to social deprivation and poverty. When will the Western media report the brute fact that 'HIV' is not a sexually transmitted retrovirus but a misinterpreted collection of endogenous epiphenomena (microvesicles, cellular debris, etc.) - and that 'AIDS' in Africa is the ideological revamping and cynical remarketting of old, well known diseases/conditions endemic in Africa?

Health Editor Sarah Bosely (The Guardian, February 18, 2003) reported: "The Human Immuno-deficiency Virus (HIV) is passed on in blood and body fluids during sexual intercourse, breastfeeding and drug injection using shared needles....(But) the virus attacks the immune system - the body's defences against infection - and eventually leaves them prey to potentially fatal diseases like tuberculosis..."

This is pure supposition; there is no hard scientific evidence to support this hypothesis. They have never found infectious 'HIV' particles in any fresh sample of any body fluid - even those taken from people with an alleged 'high viral load'. Cell-free infectious 'HIV' particles have never ever been found (and confirmed visually) in any freshly donated bodily fluid including semen, blood, etc. The putative 'HIV' has never ever proven to be a sexually transmitted retrovirus. To date: no electron-micrograph image exists of isolated/purified densely packed 'HIV' particles recovered directly from fresh samples of any bodily fluid. The only hypothetical particles ever found are produced using co-culture technique and are thus no more than cultural artefacts.

I am offering £100,000 reward for electron-micrographic evidence for visual confirmation of an isolated/purified 'HIV'. All the published electron-micrograph images allegedly to be a 'HIV' are of cellular debris, gene products and microvesicles: endogenous epiphenomenon.

Sarah Boseley stated on the cover of your twelve page special 'AIDS' propaganda broadsheet: "Grace is HIV positive." Grace is not 'HIV positive'.

No one is 'HIV positive': there is no such thing as 'HIV' infection. 'HIV' is not, repeat, not, a sexually transmitted retrovirus but a misinterpreted endogenous epiphenomenon.

Neither epidemiology nor any other branch of medical science has explained the mechanism of the sexual transmission of 'HIV' satisfactorily. It is widely acknowledged that it is much rarer for a woman to transmit 'HIV' to a man than vice versa. Similarly, it is assumed that the receptive partner during gay rectal sex acts runs the greater risk of 'HIV' infection. However, to date, there is still not one credible, scientifically proven explanation for the exact mechanism whereby a non-infected insertive partner can be infected with 'HIV' by a receptive sexual partner, whether vaginally, rectally or orally receptive. For a typically sexually transmitted organism to survive, it must be capable of efficient bi-directional transmission. This has never been demonstrated in the case of 'HIV', and all assumptions about sexual transmission of supposed cell free virus, from receptive to insertive partners, remain just that - assumptions, totally unsupported by scientific evidence. Had they done their homework properly, epidemiologists would have realised from the outset that the animal lentivirus model was singularly inept as a basis for assumed sexual spread of 'HIV', and that sexual transmission plays little or no part in the transmission of retro/lentiviruses.

Health Editor Sarah Bosely should be more critical in her research rather than take on trust the propaganda of those who want to push highly toxic drugs that have no effect on TB, malaria or malnutrition which have cynically been relabelled as 'AIDS' in Africa. How can these alleged 'anti-retroviral' drugs cure malnutrition? Malaria, TB and malnutrition are known to make the non-specific (and non-standardised) 'HIV' test run 'positive'.

John Sulston reported (The Guardian, February 18, 2003): "A year ago, in March, I visited South Africa and went to some of the township clinics that are at the front of the battle against the Aids epidemic. By then a quarter of the adult population was infected with the Aids virus..."

This is pure pulp science fiction: no one is 'infected with the Aids virus' and there is no 'Aids epidemic'. When will The Guardian stop this epidemic spread of 'HIV' related Lies and 'AIDS' related Myths?
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Old 08-01-2004, 07:45 PM   #18
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Now...I am not a scientist, but I am a well read and socially informed New Yorker.

I see Bono all the time on TV begging for more of these prescription drugs to get to Africa,devoting so much time to this effort, I was just wondering....

Has Bono done any scientific research on his own to determine whether AIDS is the real problem?

Or

Is he blindly accepting Western propaganda about the disease?
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Old 08-01-2004, 08:08 PM   #19
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Hitman, I don't think you should under estimate Bono's knowledge in this area. I'm sure he has already explored potential propoganda so that he can answer the question correctly.


http://www.data.org/whyafrica/issueaids.php

Quote:
The good news is that we know what works. Successes in a handful of countries such as Uganda and Senegal have shown that HIV rates can be brought down through effective AIDS prevention campaigns. Education, media campaigns, and community work with the most vulnerable can stop people from getting the HIV virus in the first place. AIDS drugs also have the potential to make a huge difference to the impact of the pandemic. In the past year, people living with AIDS in Africa have dared to hope that they might get access to anti-retroviral drugs (ARVs) that will keep them alive to work and care for their families. These drugs work so well that they produce a ‘Lazarus’ effect—patients at death’s door can be back at work within 2 months of starting treatment. Evidence shows that Africans taking the life-saving anti-retroviral drugs (ARVs) adhere to their regimens much better than Americans or Europeans—the success rate is about 80%.
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Old 08-01-2004, 08:17 PM   #20
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I don't know if I am underestimating Bono's expertise, but...

when he says:

"HIV rates can be brought down through effective AIDS prevention campaigns"

I wonder if Bono knows that a growing number of critics, including leading virologists and Nobel Prize winning scientists, doctors, journalists, and other academicians, question HIV’s relationship to the diseases we term AIDS.
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