after events in USA, do you think we're getting into WW3? and the end of the world?

[DrTeeth]

Nobody is going to throw the bomb but there will me some changes on a military level. Even if they didn't do it, all eyes will be on Arafat and the Palastines.

 

[UV2001]

I don't think WW3 will start.Everyone knows what the risks of it are and no one is willing to take that risk for whatever reason.

 

[z edge]

Well we really have to do something, and i realize most of us are firmly against war, but we need retribution.

 

[The Wanderer]

this is not your "typcial" scenario though, we don't really know who the enemy is, who are we supposed to fight?

I agree with those who have stated that we must punish those responsible for this with great ferocity, if we don't, we are risking repeated attacks -- it must end here.

 

[ultraviolet299]

I just read some articles that state who is most likely responsible:

Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden warned three weeks ago that he and his followers would carry out an unprecedented attack on U.S. interests for its support of Israel, an Arab journalist with access to him said Tuesday.

Islamic fundamentalists led by bin Laden were ``almost certainly'' behind the attack of the World Trade Center in New York.

``It is most likely the work of Islamic fundamentalists. Osama bin Laden warned three weeks ago that he would attack American interests in an unprecedented attack, a very big one,'' Atwan told Reuters.

``Personally, we received information that he planned very, very big attacks against American interests. We received several warnings like this. We did not take it so seriously, preferring to see what would happen before reporting it.''
......
He said the United States, if convinced that bin Laden was behind the attacks, would probably retaliate in Afghanistan where bin Laden is thought to be in hiding.

``I will not surprised that the Americans will send their cruise missiles to Afghanistan. There is no other country because bin Laden is in Afghanistan.''

 

[Salome]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
I agree with those who have stated that we must punish those responsible for this with great ferocity, if we don't, we are risking repeated attacks -- it must end here.

I usually detest any kind of violence, but I agree with you on this

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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

[This message has been edited by Salome (edited 09-11-2001).]

 

[Foxxern]

But how do we punish these people? By killing them? Most of them would gladly die for their faith. We would be doing exactly what they want by killing them. No, there has to be a much worse form of punishment for those who masterminded this attack.

These people are not humans, nor are they animals. They are, quite simply, monsters who deserve the absolute worst treatment.

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Change is the only constant

 

[z edge]

Originally posted by Foxxern:
But how do we punish these people? By killing them? Most of them would gladly die for their faith. We would be doing exactly what they want by killing them. No, there has to be a much worse form of punishment for those who masterminded this attack.

These people are not humans, nor are they animals. They are, quite simply, monsters who deserve the absolute worst treatment.

Well, what do you think, concentration camps??? If they want to die and destroy our citizens and other citizens of the world why don't we oblidge them.

I would be more than glad to help. I don't advocate war or violence in general. 11 years ago I joined the army to help keep peace and the world safe from this kind of horror. Obviously we haven't done enough. We need to draw the line NOW.

If the terrorist really believe they will be rewarded for this kind of atrocities, then let them line up in front of me while i reload!

 

[Foxxern]

Originally posted by z edge:
If they want to die and destroy our citizens and other citizens of the world why don't we oblidge them.

Because we don't want to oblige them. We don't want to give them what they want, even if it's also what we want. We should take away everything from them. Strip them of their very humanness. Maybe we make them suffer for some long period of time through torture or some other form of punishment.

If the terrorist really believe they will be rewarded for this kind of atrocities, then let them line up in front of me while i reload!

Maybe they will be rewarded--who knows. Maybe they will burn in hell, also possible. I think in the West, we certainly have an idea that death is the ultimate penalty, and will suffice as punishment for the most heinous crimes. Everyone doesn't subscribe to this idea, and frankly we just don't know if it's true. We don't know if they will suffer in the afterlife because we don't really know anything about the afterlife. What we do know is about this life, and we need to punish them with that regard. We also need to punish those who supported and aided them in doing this.

This is a crime the likes of which we have never seen, and the punishment may have to take a form that we have never seen before. It's only if we react in the proper way that we can make terrorism against the United States unthinkable. That should be our ultimate goal.

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Change is the only constant

 

[cass]

WE can only pray that commonsense and justice will prevail. ww3.world wide war.
I don't think so U2girl, I sincerely hope not.
((((((hugs)))))))

 

[Discoteque]

Not WW3 exactly, but I believe we *are* living in the "last days." (Matthew 24) Today's events just happen to be a really awful, tragic example...

I'm also very angry about those people in the middle east that were laughing and cheering at our tragedy. Really really sad and downright pathetic.

The *legal* punishment for those who did this will NEVER equal the horrors they inflicted, but they still need to be taken off the streets, brought to justice...and if that justice means the death penalty, then so be it. In this instance, it's extremely fitting.

 

[what a bomb!]

I bet the IRA wished they did something like this against London! Sorry but shocked as I am, I am used atrocities from the IRA but this, well dunno what to say, except my deepest sympathies go out to you all...

 

[SweetOnU2]

Originally posted by Discoteque:

I'm also very angry about those people in the middle east that were laughing and cheering at our tragedy. Really really sad and downright pathetic.

I know, that made me real sick! I can't believe people can be so cruel and heartless. I just turned off the TV, it was so disturbing seeing them cheer, as if they won the damn world cup or something.

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~*Everybody's talkin' about POP Musik!*~

(??.?(?*?.? ?.?*?)?.??)
?.???. *Monica* .???.?
(?.??(?.??* *??.?)??.)

 

[what a bomb!]

Originally posted by SweetOnU2:
I know, that made me real sick! I can't believe people can be so cruel and heartless. I just turned off the TV, it was so disturbing seeing them cheer, as if they won the damn world cup or something.

yeah,but didn't we take delight everytime we bombed Bahgdad and Yuogoslavia, against the despots? Don't get me wrong I am not on their side, but I can see how it was the same for them as it was for the west everytime we bombed some dictator into oblivion!

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by Foxxern:
Because we don't want to oblige them. We don't want to give them what they want, even if it's also what we want. We should take away everything from them. Strip them of their very humanness. Maybe we make them suffer for some long period of time through torture or some other form of punishment.

Foxxern:

What you say about making them suffer for some long period of time through torture or some other form of punishment is very cruel, but IT IS EVEN MORE TRUE.

It is the belief of these fundamentalists that when they die for these acts, they attain salvation. Therefore, I think it is indeed more fitting to bring them to some level of suffering. I agree with you, Foxxern.

I know that my thoughts do not coincide with the views of Amnesty International or the U.S. Bill of Rights or with my own Christianity, but I am pushed beyond my limits today. I am SICK of this crap.

What A Bomb!:

I've lived in the U.S. all my life, and I do not recall any footage of women and children celebrating out in the streets when we bombed Iraqi military installations, although I do recall a surge of patriotism and support for the troops. I do not recall ANY footage of celebratory Americans during the Bosnian affair either.

And remember: they took 2 loaded passenger planes into civilian office buildings, took another loaded civilian passenger plane into the Pentagon (yes, a military installation), and a 4th loaded civilian passenger plane towards Camp David, a symbol of an earlier peace accord. It's a little bit different from Iraqi military bunkers.

~U2Alabama

 

[what a bomb!]

sorry U2Bama it was just a instant reaction, come to think of it, why did I bother to point that out at all? You are right we didn't take to the streets rejoicing.I saw those wankers on TV dancing and cheering and throwing sweets out to the children.Liked to see how hard they would of been laughing if it happened to them!

 

[U2girl]

i mean, we were talking about what happened and a friend of my family said: Bush is gonna throw the bomb.

do you think this is it? WW3 with nuclear weapons all over the place?

is it possible for our race to live in peace or will we blast ourselves away?

there's so many things: Middle east, Africa's civil wars, Northern Ireland, ETA in Spain, Balcans...

 

[the_dopester]

I'm not sure its appropriate to be speaking of retribution.
As angry as everyone might be there as still people out there dying in the scores. And I don't mean just in NY or DC. These people rejoicing at the strikes have suffered enourmously. And will continue to suffer long after this incident sinks into the back of our minds. They don't know what we are going through. You are right. But it is TOTALLY hipocritical to sit here judging them when we don't have a clue what they have gone through, are going through and will no doubt continue to go through for many generations to come.
As Bono said concerning the release of the man who shot John Lenon.
Who is he to judge?
Yes it was a horendous crime. But if someone wants to enough, and I think that was proven yesterday, they can tear down the world. Passing more hatered around isn't going to help anyone.
Lay off. Pray for the living, don't kill for the dead.
Dopey

 

[the_dopester]

Althought that last post mightn't sound like it I am in fact an Atheist. So don't think this is some naive dreamy biblebasher raving on here.
Christian or not. This is life. Learn to live with everyone else. Yeah this has to be stopped. But talk about stopping it tomorrow, not boilling the blood of the people who did something yesterday.

 

[Klodomir]

I will probably regret speaking with such aggression once the dust clears, but right now this is what I think: Punishment in this case is futile - the guilty people have to be removed from the face of the earth.

 

[foray]

You guys speak of retribution and punishing the guilty. That will not be enough, you know why? See my thread about the children in Palestine rejoicing with their elders about the incident. These children will grow up and turn into the same kind of people who did these terrorist attacks. It will never stop. They'll just keep coming. Like Bono said, violence is never okay, going to war with these people won't help.

With regards to WW3, everyone is pretty confident that us 21st Century folks are mature enough to learn from WW1 & 2. Well, I have my doubts about this. Just look at the angry words being hurled about, even by the President himself. I think a WW3 is a real possibility here. We'll just have to wait for the real repercussions of this incident to see. Brace yourselves

but take heart.

foray

 

[the_dopester]

I can't believe what some of you people are saying!
Klodomir-"the guilty people have to be removed from the face of the earth"

Why do you consider your self any better than the people who conducted this attack?

These sentiments help NOBODY!

 

[U2girl]

well, i agree that US should find the ones responsible for these crimes and punish them.

BUT...

what's the punishment for terrorists? death? they're not afraid to die, they're trained to risk their lives for their beliefs. so, by killing them, not a single task of sanction (as we learned them in school in my country) is achieved:

- to replace the conditions the way they were before the crime (if possible, of course)
- retribution on the guilty party (again, what is achieved by killing a person who's not afraid to die? they've got nothing to lose)
- intimidating others, so no-one else would every try something like that again (over and over again, terrorists have been killed, but it hasn't stopped the terrorism itself)

in my opinion, the punishment would be prison for life. because it increases the chance of the person(s) comitting crime to repent, and start feeling guilty. it also opens the option of moral rehabilitation.

also, it's risky to use capital punishment-what if you accused the wrong guy and killed him? what if there were mistakes done in the trial? what if someone set the person up? what if some scape goat is found and sacrified?

some of you mentioned torture. i think none of these "people" are worth the trouble of dealing with them in such a way.

ps: as for those children celebrating. it's not their fault-they're trained and brainwashed to hate imperialism and West.

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"the beat of every U2 song is the pulse of every human heart"
- Carson Daly, introducing U2

the goal is soul

"be uncool, yes be awkward"

[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 09-12-2001).]

 

[UnforgettableFire]

If Bush retaliates which he will because he wants war then how many more innocent lives will be lost.
Yes there is a sense of anger and from that justice is sought by Americans but how many more innocent lives are you prepared to see suffer for the "satisfaction" of reprisals.
Nothing will help all those who lost their lives in New York and Washington yesterday and I personally feel afraid at what action the US will take and to what extent our Prime Minister will hold Bush's hand.The future of society has been altered and none of us know what the consequences of htis will be. I just hope the guilty will be brought to justice without the killing of more innocent.
Finished my rant now.

 

[the_dopester]

Was timmothy affraid to die?
What did that achieve?

This has become bigger than any individual. Or individuals. It's not a thing you can arrest. Its not a thing you can punish anymore. This is HUGE! Who ever did it. If it was a country this would be "easy" to deal with. You could retaliate and wipe out the country. But you are talking about an organisation that may well be the size of a small country. But its citizens are littered across the face of the earth. Its not something that can be controlled. I don't know how you can deal with it. But nothing is achieved by making "an example" of someone. Hold up the leader and kill him. It will achieve nothing. But yet more and more intense retaliation. You could never find everyone involved in this. I know its a nice idea. Easy. We can kill them.
But you can't and trying to do so will only worsen the situation. I know that the Government will refuse to negotiate with terrorists which is fair enough to an extent but another option must be found. I don't know how many more innocent lives will be taken but for people start to realise this. Or rather the people with the power start to realise this.
Dopey

 

[the_dopester]

PS!

Unforgettable Fire-"If Bush retaliates which he will because he wants war then how many more innocent lives will be lost"

Seriously. Bush doesn't want war. Lets not polarise this. No I don't support Bush. He doesn't want war. but I'm not sure what kind of job he will do dealing with situation. So far I think he's done ok. He's kept a reasonably sane front. Even if he has meantioned retribution a few to many times. Our lives are in his hands.

Try not to bring politics into this to much. This about lives not left and right politics. Everyone has to stick together in this.

 

[speedracer]

Originally posted by the_dopester:
Was timmothy affraid to die?
What did that achieve?

Uh, well, it prevented him from bombing another building, right?

I agree that killing the perpetrators (and especially bombing thousands of civilians) is unlikely to deter future terrorists. But we can't just let them run around and do whatever they want.

As long as the US has enemies (as it always will), it will be a target for terrorist attacks. All we can do is try to prevent them.

 

[the_dopester]

True speedracer. It did stop him from doing anymore dammage. But who or what ever pulled this of obvously has huge backing from somewhere. I'm affraid it will only stir it up. To be honest we can only ever pick off a few of these guys. There will always be more. The more we kill the more we are going to piss off and the more personal it gets. At the moment no one really knows what america has done to deserve this. But once it gets personal then more people, who otherwise may have stayed clear from this organisation, are going to believe that these terrorists have a point.
And I think this incident jsut shows how far from secure america is. even if we increase security 4 fold we would still have one hyjacked plane out there...
Like I see your point. SOMETHING has to be done. I really don't think that straight out retribution is going to help at all.

 

[ZOOTB]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:

I agree with those who have stated that we must punish those responsible for this with great ferocity, if we don't, we are risking repeated attacks -- it must end here.

I agree with this also, otherwise we just look like an easy target...

 

[ZOOTB]

Originally posted by what a bomb!:
Don't get me wrong I am not on their side, but I can see how it was the same for them as it was for the west everytime we bombed some dictator into oblivion!

Sorry, but I see a big difference between "dictator" and thousands of innocent civillians...