after events in USA, do you think we're getting into WW3? and the end of the world?

[U2girl]

Originally posted by clarityat3am:
Well I wouldn't call the conditions they live in in Afghanistan now first-class anyway, would you

now that's cynical.
not everyone is "developed world" and this has nothing to do with the overall quality of life there.
so are you saying: their lives aren't that good anyway, let's bomb them?

you can be sure civilians will get hurt when retaliations come. and if US's view is this is war, we can only imagine what awaits those people...



------------------
"the beat of every U2 song is the pulse of every human heart"
- Carson Daly, introducing U2

the goal is soul

"be uncool, yes be awkward"

 

[clarityat3am]

Pinpoint strikes do not affect many civilians if any. And I never said they're worthless. I'm saying their leadership is corrupted. Perhaps if you read the rest of my statement you would have seen that. They weren't so oppressed before the Taliban took power. Now look at them. That government could care less about them.

------------------
We turn away to face the cold, enduring chill
As the day begs the night for mercy
Your sun so bright it leaves no shadows, only scars
Carved into stone on the face of the earth
The moon is up and over One Tree Hill

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

U2girl, try to get ahold of yourself. The U.S. is not bombing Afghanistan. The U.S. will not bomb indiscriminately in an attempt to get out it's aggression. George Bush has said that they plan to punish those responsible and those that harbor them. That does not mean that the U.S. will begin what ever bombing these terrorists came from. It means they will seek out those who worked with them and protected them and punish them. If you have a problem with that, fine. But please be realistic about what is happening and what the U.S. government is talking about.

 

[clarityat3am]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
U2girl, try to get ahold of yourself. The U.S. is not bombing Afghanistan. The U.S. will not bomb indiscriminately in an attempt to get out it's aggression. George Bush has said that they plan to punish those responsible and those that harbor them. That does not mean that the U.S. will begin what ever bombing these terrorists came from. It means they will seek out those who worked with them and protected them and punish them. If you have a problem with that, fine. But please be realistic about what is happening and what the U.S. government is talking about.

Thank you.

 

[z edge]

U2Girl,
I am not going to argue with you over what a war is (i've been in war myself) and the last thing on my mind right now is the "poor people in Afghanistan". The truth is that so many of us risk(ed) our lives for other countries to protect and carry out humanitarian missions and this is the thanks we get. Other cultures have enough people who are jealous of us and twist their own religions to make it okay to go and kill people in the name of their cause and we have to suffer or help those who are, once again risking our own.

How about giving a damn about the "poor people of America"

And yes you have offended me!

[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 09-12-2001).]

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

sorry about the funky grammar/typing. my previous post should read:
"That does not mean that the U.S. will begin bombing what ever country these terrorists came from."
Hope it made sense anyway.

 

[what a bomb!]

Originally posted by sparkys girl:

Originally posted by what a bomb!:
yeah,but didn't we take delight everytime we bombed Bahgdad and Yuogoslavia, against the despots? Don't get me wrong I am not on their side, but I can see how it was the same for them as it was for the west everytime we bombed some dictator into oblivion!

Sorry, WAB..but you seem to be a little misguided, I understand what you are saying, but since when have you seen American citizens ANYWHERE burning another country's flag as a sign of protest or anger. We have seen images of many peoples burning American flags, even our own people, but we have NEVER gathered in large groups and set fire to another country's flag in protest. We have never participated in a public display of HATRED against another country, and no matter how ANGRY we are at this moment, we will NOT stoop down to their level. We are better than that!

Sparky, i have already apologise for this post,came home from the pub,wasn't thinking straight! I think the mood I was trying to get at was the general satisifaction that something was being done against Yugoslavia or Baghdad, the general mood of the public, well at least in Britain anyway, don't know about the USA. The general mood in the public was they hoped this was the action that would remove people like Saddam and Milosevic.

But would I be wrong that the day the USA strikes back at however did this, theres is not going to be at least the slightest bit of satisfaction for revenge?

 

[beardog]

okay, i'll probably be flamed, but i'm trying real hard here...
we need to try to see and feel love and light...we need to see beyond this...
fear is an illusion that unfortunately looks very real. We need to look to God/the universe whatever you wish and keep your attention there.
ps turn off your tv..its a shark infested feeding frenzy of misinformation and the relaying of extreme negativity...
Peace to all of you

 

[beardog]

okay, i'll probably be flamed, but i'm trying real hard here...
we need to try to see and feel love and light...we need to see beyond this...
fear is an illusion that unfortunately looks very real. We need to look to God/the universe whatever you wish and keep your attention there.
ps turn off your tv..its a shark infested feeding frenzy of misinformation and the relaying of extreme negativity...
Peace to all of you

 

[beardog]

okay, i'll probably be flamed, but i'm trying real hard here...
we need to try to see and feel love and light...we need to see beyond this...
fear is an illusion that unfortunately looks very real. We need to look to God/the universe whatever you wish and keep your attention there.
ps turn off your tv..its a shark infested feeding frenzy of misinformation and the relaying of extreme negativity...
Peace to all of you

 

[Diemen]

What you seem to be forgetting, U2girl, is that Bin Laden had already essentially declared war on the US long ago. I think that when someone says [paraphrased] "Our goal is to rid the earth of Americans," that's a pretty darn clear declaration of war.

Times have changed a lot, I think it's ridiculous to only consider an act of war one from one country to another and on military targets only (also keep in mind that military targets were included in this attack). When Saddam started launching SCUD missiles, they weren't exactly aimed at pure military targets, and I think we can all agree that that was an act of war.

Keep in mind that Bin Laden does not have access to conventional military power, and this was clearly a military action for his group. With extremely high levels of calculation, planning and coordination, they achieved their objectives and attacked several high profile targets that are vital to our country. The fact that the weapons they used were hijacked make little difference.

This was not merely an attack on civilians to project fear. This was a calculated attack that aimed at not only killing civilians and spreading fear, but also disrupting our economy, damaging our military powers and eliminating our leadership. (Don't know if anybody watched the press conferences, but both the White House and the FBI have acknowledged that Air Force One and the White House were targeted).

This is the clearest act of war since the bombing of Pearl Harbor. I'd argue that it's even clearer than that.

 

[sparkys girl]

Originally posted by what a bomb!:

Originally posted by sparkys girl:

But would I be wrong that the day the USA strikes back at however did this, theres is not going to be at least the slightest bit of satisfaction for revenge?

I understand your comments, I have just had some time to check the board today, and I did not read thru all the previous posts.
I apologize if I came across like a jerk.
About your question.....
There are some people who may be "happy or satisfied" with a retaliation, it would be naive to think that some people would not feel this way. However, we must keep in mind that ANY action we take will affect the world, not just a bin laden and our government. I will not be happy, I am very worried because I am not a person who wants more violence, personally I don't think it is the solution to any of our world's problems. I have always believed that diplomacy is the only solution to our problems. But, how do you use diplomacy with groups who don't know the meaning of the word. In cases like these, you have to play by different rules, I believe we MUST and WILL make an example of these cowards because if they can do this to our country, then all other democratic, free countries are also vulnerable. If you don't tear this evil out by the root, there is no doubt in my mind this will spread to other countries.

 

[MrPryck2U]

There will never be a WWIII and this is not the end of the world! What we have here is an enemy that's currently undefined. This enemy has indeed committed an act of war. Plain and simple. The building is called the World Trade Center for a reason. It's used to serve the world, not just America or New York.
I see no point whatsoever why you, U2girl, should continue to post anything in regard to this subject when your statements are greatly misinformed. In other words, you are talking out of your ass!


------------------
The goal is ELEVATION!

 

[the_dopester]

Originally posted by the_dopester
I hate that its had to come to this but in all seriousness what do you think Bono would say? Why was he waving the white flag? Why do you listen to U2's music when clearly so many of its themes are ignored? I'm ashamed at the responses I've seen.
Lay down your arms. If only for your own sake

Originally posted by z edge
In all respect to your post and to Bono, lets let the real politicans do their job. I love Bono as much as anyone else, but I am much more interested in what our real elected officials are going to say/do than what a rock stars opinion is.

I agree man. totally. As I said I hate to see it come to that. But I was hoping that some people would relate to what I was trying to say. And a few people did for which I'm thankful. I just thinks its ironic how people are saying how moving it was to hear SundayBloodySunday yesterday and then an instant later are talking about revenge and punishment. Weird.

 

[the_dopester]

Originally posted by the_dopester:
I can't believe what some of you people are saying!
Klodomir-"the guilty people have to be removed from the face of the earth"
Why do you consider your self any better than the people who conducted this attack?
These sentiments help NOBODY!

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
This is ridiculous. Klodomir IS better than the people who conducted this attack! Klodomir didn't kill what will probably be at least 10,000 people!! If we are not to obtain retribution against those responsible, what are we to do? Thank them for at least not striking us with a nuclear bomb? I'm sorry, but your post is really upsetting me. Get real.

Your're right it is ridiculous. Klodomir and I have since reached a truce ;-)
No Klodomir didn't kill ~10,000 people. But expressing some of the senitments he was expressing earlier can. I know its all out of anger at the moment but if enough people do get carried away with this impulsive anger then collectively they may soon be responsible for the deaths of thousands.
It mightn't be realistic. It may be idealistic. But the least we can do is TRY to work towards a peaceful solution.
Dopey
PS my earlier comments that Vlodomir, was no better than those that carried out this attack, SHOULDN'T be taken literally.

 

[MSU2mike]

Originally posted by MrPryck2U:
I see no point whatsoever why you, U2girl, should continue to post anything in regard to this subject when your statements are greatly misinformed. In other words, you are talking out of your ass!

Indeed.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by the_dopester:
It mightn't be realistic. It may be idealistic. But the least we can do is TRY to work towards a peaceful solution.
Dopey
PS my earlier comments that Vlodomir, was no better than those that carried out this attack, SHOULDN'T be taken literally.

No, it's not realistic, and complete peace is not the right option at this point. For this situation to turn out peacefully as you wish, means that those responsible will not pay for their crime. You can't just slap their hands. They killed at least 10,000 people. They spilled blood. Their blood is now required. And no, I'm not talking about innocents here. I'm talking about anyone involved with this crime and any nation that continues to harbor the suspect once we determine for sure who it is.
And by the way, how was I not supposed to take what you said about Klodomir not being any better than the attackers literally? How else, but literally, can one take that statement?

 

[Alisaura]

I am not American.

The events of the 11th made me sick, stunned
me, made me cry. it is unforgivable.

The responsible parties must be discovered, for certain. There should be retribution, of some sort.

*Can* one person declare war on a whole nation? Even if they have the resources the perpetrators obviously have? Is that actually war? If it was bin Laden and Afghanistan is sheltering him, even aiding him in other ways, war would be justified.
Can a nation declar war against one person, even if he leads a large organisation of... maniacs? Is it war?

America is a great nation in many ways. Very few people would blame them for taking lethal retaliation.
However, in my eyes America would be infinitely greater if they stopped the cycle of violence and revenge. By all means drag the guilty persons into an international court, strip them of assets, make them pay individual reparations to the families, make them pay for the rebuilding, the hospital costs, the funerals, the lost time on the stcock markets, exile them to the bowels of a volcano in Antarctica, dehumanise them in every way, but no violence. That would truly show me that America is as great a nation as most Americans think it is. That would give me faith in humanity and hope for a future free of further world wars.

I understand the need for revenge, yesterday I would have had little hestation about throttling the evil people who did this myself with razor wire. But if humanity is really more than animal instinct and passion, let there be no more killing. This goes for everyone, let no innocent Muslims be killed in petty acts by pissed off and grief stricken Americans.

Sing - "NO MORE!"

Thankyou.

----------
I Feel Numb...

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Alisaura:
This goes for everyone, let no innocent Muslims be killed in petty acts by pissed off and grief stricken Americans.
----------
I Feel Numb...

While I disagree with you about taking the perpetrators to court (I feel their swift extermination is the only option), I certainly agree with the above statement. Most Muslims do NOT promote violence and are appalled by these crimes. I pray to God to keep these people safe.

 

[U2girl]

Originally posted by MrPryck2U:
There will never be a WWIII and this is not the end of the world! What we have here is an enemy that's currently undefined. This enemy has indeed committed an act of war. Plain and simple. The building is called the World Trade Center for a reason. It's used to serve the world, not just America or New York.
I see no point whatsoever why you, U2girl, should continue to post anything in regard to this subject when your statements are greatly misinformed. In other words, you are talking out of your ass!

hmmmm...nice. i thought we were all equal and everyone can post, as long as it's not offensive. guess i was wrong...

i'm not going to argue about this being war or not. you have your opinon, and i have mine. let's quit this now, ok?

my country was in a war too, z edge. it lasted about 10 days, with full scale planes and tanks attack by the Yugoslav army. and i do "give a damn about the poor American people". (see my post "Europeans-are you out there? isn't it horrible?")
what gave you the idea i don't care? and how are you offended, if i may ask?

clarity: you can't avoid civilian victims in a war-Gulf war proved that.

diemen: hijacked planes are a classic tool of terrorism, not war.

all i'm saying is get the ones responsible. don't hate ALL Arabs/Muslims because of the few radical fanatics.
suppose Bin Laden did it. suppose US gets him (he knows the terrain in Afghanistan and has his hideouts, no doubt).
there are other terrorists all over the world. new attacks will come after this. international community must act everywhere against them as soon as possible-maybe make something like Interpol is for hunting criminals.


------------------
"the beat of every U2 song is the pulse of every human heart"
- Carson Daly, introducing U2

the goal is soul

"be uncool, yes be awkward"

[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 09-13-2001).]

 

[clarityat3am]

Originally posted by U2girl:
clarity: you can't avoid civilian victims in a war-Gulf war proved that.

diemen: hijacked planes are a classic tool of terrorism, not war.

I never said it didn't have and won't have civilian victims, but we won't purposely target them like these bastards did.

And yes hijacked planes are a classic tool of terrorism, but I've never seen a hijacked plane directed at a national symbol that housed more than 50,000 working people every day. This was 4 planes with the potential for dead in the thousands. This is an act of war.



------------------
We turn away to face the cold, enduring chill
As the day begs the night for mercy
Your sun so bright it leaves no shadows, only scars
Carved into stone on the face of the earth
The moon is up and over One Tree Hill

 

[U2girl]

Originally posted by clarityat3am:
I never said it didn't have and won't have civilian victims, but we won't purposely target them like these bastards did.

And yes hijacked planes are a classic tool of terrorism, but I've never seen a hijacked plane directed at a national symbol that housed more than 50,000 working people every day. This was 4 planes with the potential for dead in the thousands. This is an act of war.

see? civlian deaths are civilian deaths- whether they are targeted or not, it is wrong to kill innocent people.

yes, never before has terrorism caused so many victims, but still, it is terrorism. also, who's gonna wage war with US army-it being the strongest and best equipped in the world? there are no enemies in the sense of countries going to war against US, only terrorists.

does it really matter how we call it?

ps: what were CIA and FBI doing? how come none of the intelligence agencies knew nothing about this?




[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 09-13-2001).]

 

[clarityat3am]

Originally posted by U2girl:
see? civlian deaths are civilian deaths- whether they are targeted or not, it is wrong to kill innocent people.

yes, never before has terrorism caused so many victims, but still, it is terrorism.

does it really matter how we call it?


[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 09-13-2001).]

Nevermind. I'm done trying to show my point of view to you. You don't even try to be sympathetic towards us. You're more worried about everyone else dying than all the people who've been killed already. It's impossible to reason with you and I'm sick of getting into the same ridiculous argument over the same things. Take your twisted logic and you're twisted interpretations somewhere else please. I'm done.

------------------
We turn away to face the cold, enduring chill
As the day begs the night for mercy
Your sun so bright it leaves no shadows, only scars
Carved into stone on the face of the earth
The moon is up and over One Tree Hill

[This message has been edited by clarityat3am (edited 09-13-2001).]

 

[U2girl]

Originally posted by clarityat3am:
Nevermind. I'm done trying to show my point of view to you. You don't even try to be sympathetic towards us. You're more worried about everyone else dying than all the people who've been killed already. It's impossible to reason with you and I'm sick of getting into the same ridiculous argument over the same things. Take your twisted logic and you're twisted interpretations somewhere else please. I'm done.

and i'm done trying to show my point of view to you. i am sympathetic to you, and i'm worried about all the innocent lives that may be lost, be it US or anywhere else.

what's the importance of borders when human lives are gone? dead people are dead people, wherever they may come from. we're one.

just forget about it. i see it's no use, as you won't listen.


[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 09-13-2001).]

 

[Zen]

sooooooo, who won ?

------------------
Shake it, shake it, shake it

 

[Diemen]

U2girl, you are impossible to reason with sometimes, you know that?

It doesn't matter if hijacked planes are classic terrorist tactics - I repeat - it does not matter. Anything on this scale in which targets are laid out specifically and they go after not only civilian, but economic, military and executive powers, is clearly an act of war.

Nowhere does it say that an act of war HAS to be carried out by one country on another. Whether or not the perpetrators are representing a country or not is insignificant. this was an act of war and I'm amazed that you're still bickering over "but they were terrorists, blah blah blah." Of course they were terrorists. We all know that. They committed a terrorist act. But the sheer magnitude of the act and the targets involved made it a clear act of war. If, for the sake of argument, Afghanistan, as a country, decided to declare war on the US and decided to do it by hijacking planes and doing this exact same thing, would you agree then that it was an act of war? Now, substitute, worldwide network of terrorists for Afghanistan and you have the same thing - An. Act. Of. War. The only difference is that instead of being pitted against a country, we are pitted against a group of people.

Stop being so narrow-minded and naive about certain things. Terrorists can commit acts of war. Times have changed.

 

[Alisaura]

Killing more people will not bring the dead back to life.


-----------
I Feel Numb...

 

[U2girl]

Originally posted by Diemen:
U2girl, you are impossible to reason with sometimes, you know that?


Stop being so narrow-minded and naive about certain things. Terrorists can commit acts of war. Times have changed.

the person impossible to reason with is you.

why am i being narrow-minded and naive about it?
Terorrists can attack military targets. nowhere does it say they are only after civilians. usually yes, but not always. (as we have seen now)

hijacked planes are NOT used in wars. can't you understand that?

it takes two countries to go to war. two nations. (or more, or less, if it's a civil war within a country) we're not talking about anything like that here.
it's just terorrists vs USA.




------------------
"the beat of every U2 song is the pulse of every human heart"
- Carson Daly, introducing U2

the goal is soul

"be uncool, yes be awkward"

 

[Diemen]

Originally posted by U2girl:

why am i being narrow-minded and naive about it?

!!!!!!!!! You mean you don't actually know????

Ok, I point you to the following comment as a direct example.

hijacked planes are NOT used in wars. can't you understand that?

THIS is EXACTLY why you are being so narrow minded and naive. Is there some freaking rulebook that says "absolutely no hijacked planes in war." that you have access to?? Get it through your thick skull that this is a new breed of war that FOLLOWS A NEW SET OF RULES. When something as massive as this takes place, it is an act of war. I find it absolutely absurd and stupid of you to think that people must abide by certain rules in war. If your objective is to destroy your enemy as is Bin Laden's, I doubt you're going to bother with following age old rules to do so. You're going to find the most effective way, regardless of whether or not it follows the rules.

it takes two countries to go to war. two nations. (or more, or less, if it's a civil war within a country) we're not talking about anything like that here.
it's just terorrists vs USA.

I point you to a previous time in which we declared war on the Barbary Pirates, who were NOT a nation, NOT a country, but were a group of people in various places in Africa.

It does not take a nation to commit an act of war on a different nation. How many times must this be said? Times have changed, and so have the rules of war - virtually every military, social and political expert that's been on the news these past few days agrees upon that. Your position is getting sillier and siller each time you insist that "but it can't be a war unless it's a country who follows certain methods to declare war."

And by the way, this was not just an attack on the US. By striking the World Trade Centers, this was an attack on the global economy. And may I also remind you that Bin Laden and his group have publicly given a formal declaration of war against the US and it's allies as long ago as 1996.

This was

AN

ACT

OF

WAR

regardless of what you and your misinformed opinion states.

 

[Anticipation-is-a-liar]

The attack killed more Americans than D-Day, Pearl Harbor, and the Titanic combined. I have always felt that peace should prevail, and I did not not feel that Vietnam or many other "interests" wars or military actions were completely justifiable. HOWEVER, America CAPITAL city and largest city were attacked killing probably over 5000 people, most of whcih were civilians. To me, war and any kind of fighting is jusitified in self defence, and we were attacked. I think that we should attack and invade Afganistan in order to remove the Taliban and Bin Ladin and also Iraq, who allegedely supported and helped finance Bin Laden.

The only other time the continental US was attacked with any significance was the War of 1812, where England burned down the White House before we eventually prevailed. We must attack if enough evidence is obtained. When you're nations capital city and its leaders are attacked, all bets are off.

As a government worker in social services, I, myself have volunteered for duty in New York, and may be sent there by my states government. I pray that we can bring the groups and nations responsible to justice.

------------------
Your love was like a light bulb..hanging over my bed.