Star Wars storyline and plot discussion on new and old trilogy conflicts

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U2Kitten

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There have been several mentions of these descrepencies in the new movie thread, but there are so many I wanted to take them to a new thread where we can come up with answers for them or figure them out. I hope some of you have answers for the things that bugged me. Anyone who has one of these questions, or an answer to something, please post.

Last night I was watching Empire, and the "Emperor" they had was certainly not Palpatine. He was very low tech and didn't look or sound like him. But worst of all, what he said to Darth Vader is a huge conflict and blooper as far as tying the story in with the new movie. I hadn't seen Empire in years and I had forgotten. He told Vader that there was a new threat, Luke Skywalker, and that 'the son of Skywalker' must not stop them. He sent Vader to capture him and try to turn him to the dark side. Okay, so I guess that's how Darth found out Luke was his son- the last name, then I guess he 'searched his feelings.' So when Darth confronts him at the end and tells him he is his father, we know that Darth knows that 'the son of Skywalker' is his son, meaning he is Skywalker and of course he knows it. HOWEVER- and this is my problem here- not only was the emperor not the same guy, he obviously was oblivious to the fact that Skywalker and Vader were the same person, and this is a HUGE blunder and blooper as far as tying in with the newest movie :yikes:
 
Uhhhhhhh....... I really don't see an issue here to be honest. They're members of an odd cult, thus they're allowed to talk in a cryptic fashion. Remember, at this stage Anakin Skywalker doesn't exist, only Darth does.

With respect to the Emperor, Ian McDiarmid probably wasn't in the picture at that stage and they just had another guy play him. He only appears for a few moments as a poor quality hologram!!

Chill out, you're completely overanalyzing things!
 
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karls77 said:
Uhhhhhhh....... I really don't see an issue here to be honest. They're members of an odd cult, thus they're allowed to talk in a cyptic fashion. Remember, at this stage Anaking Skywalker doesn't exist, only Darth does.

With respect to the Emperor, Ian McDiarmid probably wasn't in the picture at that stage and they just had another guy play him. He only appears for a few moments as a poor quality hologram!!

Chill out, you're completely overanalyzing things!

Agreed. Anakin Skywalker ceased to exist when Darth Vader emerges.

Obi-Wan even said this.

No issue.

so it's not Ian playing the emperor in Ep V does it really matter?

so Darth Vader claims Luke Skywalker as his son when Anakin doesn't exist. Well, remember the line "there is still good in him" And with the whole Padme issue, here is his link to Padme. Blah Blah

We can analyze it all we want but I don't see a problem.
 
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In the original Episode 5, a different actor plays the Emperor. In the Special Editions, Lucas went back and redid the scene with Ian McDiarmid.

I've heard Rick McCallum say that the Star Wars films won't be finished until Lucas dies. He will continue to tinker with and add to the movies.
 
nbcrusader said:
In the original Episode 5, a different actor plays the Emperor. In the Special Editions, Lucas went back and redid the scene with Ian McDiarmid.


Oh! What version is this? The latest one? I also heard that he changed the ghost of the old Anakin at the end of Jedi to the young Anakin (Christensen) from this new movie, did you see that?
 
Okay so y'all aren't bothered by this question, how about the 'real mother' memory thing in Jedi, and her dying in Sith?
 
U2Kitten said:


Oh! What version is this? The latest one? I also heard that he changed the ghost of the old Anakin at the end of Jedi to the young Anakin (Christensen) from this new movie, did you see that?

Yes that is true, he did change it. It was in the new re-release dvd package that came out last year.
 
U2Kitten said:
Okay so y'all aren't bothered by this question, how about the 'real mother' memory thing in Jedi, and her dying in Sith?

Now that has been bothering me.
In Jedi, Leia says that she remembers her real mom but that she was very young when she died or something like that.
She remembered her being beautiful and sad.
:shrug: I don't know.
 
U2Kitten said:


Oh! What version is this? The latest one? I also heard that he changed the ghost of the old Anakin at the end of Jedi to the young Anakin (Christensen) from this new movie, did you see that?

That was yet another change to the movie. There are essentially three official released versions of Star Wars - the original theatrical release, the Special Edition release and the DVD release.
 
**THIS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED SPOILER MATERIAL IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE FILM YET**


For me, the biggest discussion regarding this movie are the two surprises that surfaced. I know it was mentioned in the other thread. The website www.thedigitalbits.com talks about them briefly - I have cut and paste it here for all to see.

begin quote

When Palpatine tells Anakin the story of Darth Plagueis, he says that Plagueis knew the secret of using the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life, that Plagueis taught this power to his apprentice, and that his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Palpatine, of course, was that apprentice, which implies that either Plagueis created Anakin before Palpatine killed him... or Palpatine created Anakin himself. It rings true as the obvious payoff to both the midi-chlorian concept and Anakin not having had a father (from Episode I). On the other hand, Palpatine was lying about Plagueis knowing how to save people from death - simply playing on Anakin's fears about Padme. The second bit of information, is when Yoda reveals to Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon learned how to retain his consciousness after death, and that Qui-Gon will teach both Yoda and Obi-Wan this secret during their years of exile on Dagobah and Tatooine. In the film's shooting script, there was actually a brief conversation between spirit Qui-Gon and Yoda, but the scene was later cut. You just see the tail end of it in the film now - Yoda appears to be meditating when Bail Organa comes into say that Obi-Wan has made contact (en-route from Mustafar). I hope Lucas shot the whole scene, because I'd love to see it on the DVD release.

end quote

To think that the Emperor himself might be Anakin's father was, to me, the biggest shocker I got from all this. What does everyone else think?
 
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that's quite an interesting theory... sounds about right too.

Now that all the movies are out, I wish Mr. Lucas would release a book or something that answers ALL the questions of the story, and basically just lays everything out from beginning to end.
 
Well if it is true that Palpatine is Anakin's father,
then that would play a part in why Anakin turned
to the dark side rather easily, it was in his blood.
Along with the fact that he wanted to save Padme.

Luke was stronger than his father was and couldn't be turned.

What do you think?
 
One glitch in the movie:

When Padme goes to the volcano planet to talk to Anakin, she is in that skimpy dress. After he chokes her and knocks her unconscious, she has pants on. Hell?
 
mdw3935 said:
Well if it is true that Palpatine is Anakin's father,
then that would play a part in why Anakin turned
to the dark side rather easily, it was in his blood.
Along with the fact that he wanted to save Padme.

Luke was stronger than his father was and couldn't be turned.

What do you think?

Well just because he manipulated midichlorians doesn't made Palpatine his "father" in the sense of it being in his blood.

He created him so father in a way yes but Anakin shouldn't have any blood relation based on the midicholorians being manipulated.
 
Dr_Macphisto said:
One glitch in the movie:

When Padme goes to the volcano planet to talk to Anakin, she is in that skimpy dress. After he chokes her and knocks her unconscious, she has pants on. Hell?

I don't remember her wearing a dress when you went onboard the ship and afterwards.
 
:| seriously.

she had pants on the entire time.

they were those tight pants that are sometimes called "leggings"

if you want to come up with discrepancies, please...come up with something good. i mean come on, another actor playing a part? i think that's stretching it a bit.

as far as leia remembering her mother, i think (and it was mentioned by someone else in the other thread as well) that leia simply sensed padme through the force. leia was actually alive for several moments before her mother died. padme was also crying while she was giving birth, and while she was dying, maybe that's how leia sensed that she was sad. who knows. some of us star wars geeks also like to assume that leia was simply sensing things from inside the womb.

(lol, sometimes i can't believe i actually say these things...)

and to answer your question, no, these barely perceptible flaws in the storyline don't "bother me." there have been thirty years in between the original films and the prequels. and these few things are the only discrepancies we can come up with? lol, i think that's pretty good. and considering how unbelievably humongous this project was, i think lucas has done a hell of a job.

except with jar jar binks, of course :wink:
 
But why wouldn't Luke remember? He was stronger in the Force than Leia was, or so they've hinted. And Luke is the baby Obi-Wan is holding near her face, so really he should be the one with memories of her crying...

And while she *could* be taking about Mrs. Organa, what would be the point of the scene...after all, when Luke reveals that he's her brother, she says "I know--somehow, I've always known."
So why would she be talking about her adopted mother? Of course, relationships (love, family) are regrettably not Lucas' storng point.

It's just another one of those "I thought I could train him as well as Yoda trained me" type lines that Lucas forgets he ever wrote, before he realized he'd make up a character named Qui-Jon Ginn.
Yoda trains all of the Jedi, so that's not such a big deal, but Qui-Jon seemed to exert more personal influence and seems like the kind of mentor you'd remember to mention to your own student.

A "glitch" someone pointed out to me is that if Qui-Jon was the first Jedi to return as a ghost, presumably teaching it to Yoda and Obi-Wan, who taught Anakin? But that doesn't bother me like the Leia one does, because they could have told Anakin once he showed up on the Other Side. :wink:
 
she's not talking about bail organa's wife. luke specifically asks leia if she remembers her "real mother." i'm pretty convinced that she's talking about padme. besides, she would clearly have memories of bail organa's wife; the woman raised her.

why does leia remember padme and luke doesn't? lol, i don't know. maybe leia's jedi senses in that aspect are more developed than luke's at that point. maybe it's because they're both chicks. female intuition and all of that. in other words, i have no idea and am now making it up as i go along.

:wink:
 
bonosgirl84 said:
why does leia remember padme and luke doesn't? lol, i don't know. maybe leia's jedi senses in that aspect are more developed than luke's at that point. maybe it's because they're both chicks. female intuition and all of that. in other words, i have no idea and am now making it up as i go along.

I think the implication in that scene is that their mother was alive for the first few years of Leia's life.

Anyway, besides that mind numbing disconnect between the events of the prequels and those of the original trilogy, here are some others I noticed:

[*]In A New Hope, Kenobi refers to the Jedi purges by saying that Vader hunted down the Jedi. In Revenge Of The Sith, though, we instead see the Jedi being all killed simultaneously by clone troopers (which begs the question, how do these guys go down so fast; are they Jedi or are't they?). This can be explained, however, by having a large number of Jedi that aren't on the front lines be considered to have survived all across the galaxy -- again, this is not actually indicated.

[*]At the end of Revenge Of The Sith, roughly 20 years before A New Hope, we see the beginning of the construction of the Death Star, which is presumably a 20 year venture. However, a larger Death Star is halfway completed after the ONE YEAR between The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi. This is somewhat confusing. This could also be explained by saying that the Death Star at the end of Revenge Of The Sith is a prototype, or that the bulk of construction of the first Death Star was actually scientific research.

[*]By the way, am I supposed to buy that the Clone Troopers become the Stormtroopers when a) they suddenly stop sounding like clones; and b) their ability to successfully operate their firearms suddenly drops so low that they would be more successful if they armed themselves with safety pins?

[*]How is Darth Vader able to sense Kenobi on the Death Star, yet is seemingly unable to do the same on that volcanic planet? Is he really that far away? Of course, the question of Darth Vader's ability to sense things that should be obvious has been questioned since 1980 and 1983 (Luke the son and Leia the daughter, respectively).

[*]Anyone figure out yet why Owen Lars hates Obi-Wan Kenobi so much? It was one thing when we asumed that Anakin Skywalker and Owen actually knew each other for a significant period of time, but as they obviously did not, I find this somewhat mystifying.

[*]As hard to believe the duel was between Kenobi and Vader in A New Hope was before, how can I honestly believe it after having seen the same two duel in Revenge Of The Sith?

[*]How in the world does Palpatine's lighting so terribly disfigure himself in Revenge Of The Sith, while Luke walks away unscathed in Return Of The Jedi?

I'm sure there are a few more I will remember later...

All this said, Lucas did a remarkable job linking the two trilogies both thematically and factually, so thumbs up to that! :up:
 
Hrm, I think I can provide my two cents.

[*]In A New Hope, Kenobi refers to the Jedi purges by saying that Vader hunted down the Jedi. In Revenge Of The Sith, though, we instead see the Jedi being all killed simultaneously by clone troopers (which begs the question, how do these guys go down so fast; are they Jedi or are't they?). This can be explained, however, by having a large number of Jedi that aren't on the front lines be considered to have survived all across the galaxy -- again, this is not actually indicated.


Well, Jedi or not - they were all taken by surprise and were clearly outnumbered, you can't really do much when the numbers are totally against and you're surprised, though Yoda was the only one who had any idea, plus he had the 'good relations with the Wookies' and the fact that he's tiny help him. Either way, Vader must have killed some Jedi in the temple along with the Younglings (someone must have been watching over them), and I think its implied that there are a few more Jedi left to purge.

[*]At the end of Revenge Of The Sith, roughly 20 years before A New Hope, we see the beginning of the construction of the Death Star, which is presumably a 20 year venture. However, a larger Death Star is halfway completed after the ONE YEAR between The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi.

Well, in Return of the Jedi the commander 'does' tell Vader that the Emperor is 'demanding the impossible' and that he 'needs more men'- now we know just how impossible it is, considering that the first one took 18 years to build. Even then, the Death Star is far from finished and still pretty rough looking. I don't know, I don't think thats farfetched.

[*]By the way, am I supposed to buy that the Clone Troopers become the Stormtroopers when a) they suddenly stop sounding like clones; and b) their ability to successfully operate their firearms suddenly drops so low that they would be more successful if they armed themselves with safety pins?

Maybe they cloned other people, other than Jango Fett. Don't forget, the original was killed in Attack of the Clones, and, sooner or later over the course of two decades they would have run out of clones and would need others - or maybe they just gave up on clones altogether, though, as you said, they should have stuck with them, considering their aim in the original trilogy.

[*]How is Darth Vader able to sense Kenobi on the Death Star, yet is seemingly unable to do the same on that volcanic planet? Is he really that far away? Of course, the question of Darth Vader's ability to sense things that should be obvious has been questioned since 1980 and 1983 (Luke the son and Leia the daughter, respectively).

As some have already stated, the ability to sense really does depend on the force and your ability at the time. i.e. - when the dark side of the force is powerful only the dark side can be tapped into, and other force users can't use the force as effectively - hence the lack of the Jedi's ability to even sense that the dark side was right under their very noses in the prequel trilogy. It could be argued that on Mustarfar, Vader's power with the dark side had not grown enough in order for him to sense everything - he had just turned from the 'light side' of the Force and was 'just' starting using his powers. Remember the Emperor saying that 'go to Mustarfar and kill the Viceroy, only then will you be powerful enough with the dark side'. Whehter he's lying or now, it is clear that Vader still has to continue growing with the dark side, and that takes time. On Mustarfar, the force is quite clearly with Obi-Wan (he wins) and he does, indeed, have the higher ground - Vader's abilities are less than his, in this moment.

[*]Anyone figure out yet why Owen Lars hates Obi-Wan Kenobi so much? It was one thing when we asumed that Anakin Skywalker and Owen actually knew each other for a significant period of time, but as they obviously did not, I find this somewhat mystifying.

I'm just reading the screenplay now and I don't really see Owen Lars hating Obi-Wan, though he probably is prejudiced against the Jedi, equating them with the failure of the Republic etc. Plus, he's on Tatooine, so what does he know? I find it curious that at the end of 'Revenge', its only Beru who greets Obi-Wan and Owen stands away. This distance could be interpreted as some resentment. Either way, his behaviour in 'A New Hope' seems to denote a very fatherly concern; being a Jedi did your father no favours and I don't want you running off becoming one.

[*]As hard to believe the duel was between Kenobi and Vader in A New Hope was before, how can I honestly believe it after having seen the same two duel in Revenge Of The Sith?

Kenobi's powers were, after all, weak during that one. Plus, Kenobi had a plan of what to do, anyway - he wanted to sacrifice himself, which explains why his moves are more defensive (i.e. stalling until Luke gets there) rather than oofensive. Also, by then Vader is more powerful with the dark side and hence more powerful in general, and was really just taunting Obi-Wan. Incidentally, people can say all they want about the Prequel fight sequences and how splendid they are (they are), for me, no fight is as cool as the one between Luke and Vader in 'Jedi'.

[*]How in the world does Palpatine's lighting so terribly disfigure himself in Revenge Of The Sith, while Luke walks away unscathed in Return Of The Jedi?

Thats a good one. I think the difference could be that in Jedi he's frying Luke at a distance and not necessarily aiming at his face, while in Sith his lightning is engulfing his face entirely as Windu's lightsabre is pretty much right next to him. Also, I think its a combination of things; its the lightning but its also the fact that his control of the dark side is becoming almost too great for him to contain, and it is ravaging his body. This is not entirely unsubstantiated, notice how his voice is given this terrifying bass and ghastly animal sounds immediately after frying Mace Windu - that is the sound of his body being totally consumed by the dark side; he is at the height of his powers here, and his body is paying the price for it.

Ant.
 
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Anthony said:

Maybe they cloned other people, other than Jango Fett. Don't forget, the original was killed in Attack of the Clones, and, sooner or later over the course of two decades they would have run out of clones and would need others - or maybe they just gave up on clones altogether, though, as you said, they should have stuck with them, considering their aim in the original trilogy.


Exactly right, Lucas confirmed that they had to use a mixture of clones (some not from the original source) and that they had to start drafting as well. Not mentioned in the movies anywhere but Lucas said this in an interview.
 
The Palpatine = Anakin's Dad theory is good speculation (I like that!;) ) But if he had the power to create babies with the force, why wouldn't he have done that over and over and had many many powerful, force-filled children he could manipulate to the dark side? Wouldn't that have been better than making all those clones of Bobba Fett's Dad?
 
Very interesting, Avsgirl and Anthony! :yes: Good ones!

I saw this on another message board, what do you guys think of this:

Was the prophecy correct? It said that Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the Sith and bring balance to the force. But he turned to the dark side and joined the Sith, so how could this be? Wasn't it really Luke who was the chosen one? But hold on- who killed Palpatine? Vader! (Anakin) So maybe, from a certain point of view;) it was correct after all!

Was this the plan of Yoda and Obi Wan, to get Luke to face him and turn him back so he could defeat Palpatine, because they knew it was he who must? Is this why they originally didn't want Luke to know it was his father because then he wouldn't want to face him? Did they want him to do this, or kill Vader? What do you think?
 
U2Kitten said:
Very interesting, Avsgirl and Anthony! :yes: Good ones!

I saw this on another message board, what do you guys think of this:

Was the prophecy correct? It said that Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the Sith and bring balance to the force. But he turned to the dark side and joined the Sith, so how could this be? Wasn't it really Luke who was the chosen one? But hold on- who killed Palpatine? Vader! (Anakin) So maybe, from a certain point of view;) it was correct after all!

That is a good one also U2 kitten. I didn't even think about that one. Now that I am, I think you might be right that Anakin was the chosen on after all. It would just take several years for it to come true.

One thing is for sure is that I'm enjoying reading everyone's different take on this saga. :)
 
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