so few can make such a loud disturbing statement

[ladywithspinninghead]

Won't it ever stop???

What's going on - why this year??? why not in years past??? Has patriotism really gotten to the point that it now borders on fanaticism and xenophobia???

 

[Zooropa]

OK, first off, I have yet to find this story documented by any other news source and secondly WHO CARES?? A few drunk fans might have done something stupid after hockey game!!! I highly doubt that they were intentionally trying to start an international incident. I remember a few years back when Vanouver lost in the Finals and the fans practicly torched the entire city. I think it's really time that we all get over this. As for the four soldiers killed, yes it wass a tragedy BUT WE ARE AT WAR!!!! It may sound harsh, but mistakes happen!!! Jeez, get over it guys, there is no anti-canadien sentiment here in the states.
I'm not saying that burning a flag is right, and I am not justifying these alleged actions in any way but I also would think that we are all rational enough to understand that the actions of a few are not representitive of the many. This caandian propaganda that claims this anti-canadien bias is getting old.

------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Zooropa FTP

[This message has been edited by Zooropa (edited 05-02-2002).]

 

[Krasno The Great]

Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

Won't it ever stop???

What's going on - why this year??? why not in years past??? Has patriotism really gotten to the point that it now borders on fanaticism and xenophobia???

I don't think it has anything to do with patriotism nor do I think they were being xenophobic.

If it were a Chicago Red Wings flag hanging from the car, they would have burned that too.

CK

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by Zooropa:
OK, first off, I have yet to find this story documented by any other news source and secondly WHO CARES?? A few drunk fans might have done something stupid after hockey game!!! I highly doubt that they were intentionally trying to start an international incident. I remember a few years back when Vanouver lost in the Finals and the fans practicly torched the entire city. I think it's really time that we all get over this. As for the four soldiers killed, yes it wass a tragedy BUT WE ARE AT WAR!!!! It may sound harsh, but mistakes happen!!! Jeez, get over it guys, there is no anti-canadien sentiment here in the states.
I'm not saying that burning a flag is right, and I am not justifying these alleged actions in any way but I also would think that we are all rational enough to understand that the actions of a few are not representitive of the many. This caandian propaganda that claims this anti-canadien bias is getting old.

i don't think anyone ever suggested there was an anti-canadian sentiment.
there is definetely a marked change in the mindset of some for whatever reason this year. it all started with a sizable portion of fans in the silverdome jeering the canadian anthem before game 1 of the pistons-raptors series.

as for 'who cares?', i think you are being fairly ignorant of canada in that statement zooropa. i'm canadian and i care.

 

[Zooropa]

Originally posted by kobayashi:

i don't think anyone ever suggested there was an anti-canadian sentiment.
there is definetely a marked change in the mindset of some for whatever reason this year. it all started with a sizable portion of fans in the silverdome jeering the canadian anthem before game 1 of the pistons-raptors series.

as for 'who cares?', i think you are being fairly ignorant of canada in that statement zooropa. i'm canadian and i care.

I would just like to preface my response with one thing kobayashi, I actually enjoy your posts, they are well thought, articulate and intelligent. I don't want you to feel that just becasue I happen to disagree with a lot of them, that I have anything against you or that I am trying to start a problem (ala some others). With that said, I have agreed with you about the classless actions of BOTH canadians AND Americans when it comes to the jeering of National Anthems. I do believe however, that it is more of a reaction against the team than the country, which it seems that some people have a problem understanding. As for the who cares comment, I stand by it, So a few drunk New Yorkers burned a Canadian flag, SO WHAT!!! It's not right but I seem to recall that during the Vietnam era, Many prominent Canadian Universities held anti-war demonstrations that involved US flag burnings, which to me is a far more condemible and inflamatory jesture than the alleged incident on Long Island so it's certainly not a first. Now I realize that this is somewhat of an "apples and Oranges" comparison but none the less, it serves its purpose. If you feel I am ignorant, then fine, you have a right to your opinion, but to get upset over it, and take issue with it, is ignorance on your part. Ignorance of the big picture that surrounds an extremely isolated incident that I still have yet to see documented and I know at least a dozen people that went to this game and they have no recollection of any such incident and have gone to all of my news sources and come up with nothing. Even if it did happen, I still stand by my arguement of the big picture and the intent behind the action. Yes, it was wrong to burn the flag, but I just don't see the relevance of starting a whole new thread about it.

------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Zooropa FTP

[This message has been edited by Zooropa (edited 05-02-2002).]

 

[speedracer]

Originally posted by kobayashi:

as for 'who cares?', i think you are being fairly ignorant of canada in that statement zooropa. i'm canadian and i care.

How about this:

Why should you care what some drunken bozo at a hockey game does with your flag?

When the anti-Vietnam-war protesters burned the American flag, they were making a political statement.

When a drunken bozo burns a Canadian flag at a hockey game, he's being a drunken bozo.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 05-02-2002).]

 

[ladywithspinninghead]

Well, I hope you guys are right (about it being the work of drunken idiots)...It just seems like there's a lot of animosity between the U.S. and Canada lately in sporting matches that wasn't there before....

 

[kobayashi]

thank you for your kind words zooropa. you are much to kind. please be aware that i enjoy your posts also

please allow me to clarify my position. i am not quite so disturbed by the incident reported in the article i posted. this article is the one which most dramatically recounts such an event and i could see that as being misleading. for that i apologize. i do understand that the events of drunken americans are in no way representative of a group of fans, community, city, state, let alone country.

rather, and as i alluded to in my second post it was the initial reaction of the pistons crowd that thoroughly confused me. i think it is more that that i am reacting to than this incident in NY. my apologies for posting the misleading article(i had heard a rumor of this having happened but todays national post was the first documentation of it).

though still a minority, there was a fair proportion of that crowd booing the canadian anthem.

of all american-canadian border communities i would think the detroit-windsor relationship is amongst the strongest, given their largely shared socio-economic past.


leafs thoroughly got their asses kicked this evening by the way. even if the isles didn't eliminate us, they certainly knocked us out for the first game of the next series. raptors are gonna take the pistons out methinks tho

 

[Zooropa]

Originally posted by kobayashi:
thank you for your kind words zooropa. you are much to kind. please be aware that i enjoy your posts also

please allow me to clarify my position. i am not quite so disturbed by the incident reported in the article i posted. this article is the one which most dramatically recounts such an event and i could see that as being misleading. for that i apologize. i do understand that the events of drunken americans are in no way representative of a group of fans, community, city, state, let alone country.

rather, and as i alluded to in my second post it was the initial reaction of the pistons crowd that thoroughly confused me. i think it is more that that i am reacting to than this incident in NY. my apologies for posting the misleading article(i had heard a rumor of this having happened but todays national post was the first documentation of it).

though still a minority, there was a fair proportion of that crowd booing the canadian anthem.

of all american-canadian border communities i would think the detroit-windsor relationship is amongst the strongest, given their largely shared socio-economic past.

Point taken.

leafs thoroughly got their asses kicked this evening by the way. even if the isles didn't eliminate us, they certainly knocked us out for the first game of the next series. raptors are gonna take the pistons out methinks tho

GO SENS GO!!!!!

You can have the Pistons, I stopped following the NBA when the Knicks didn't make it!

------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Zooropa FTP

[This message has been edited by Zooropa (edited 05-02-2002).]

 

[speedracer]

As a transplanted Detroiter, let me say that we Detroit hockey fans are quite grateful for the existence of Windsor channel 9 and CBC's Hockey Night in Canada.

 

[The Wanderer]

I wish people would get as passionate about something like world hunger or human rights as they do about a fucking game, don't get me wrong, I love sports just as much as the next fool, but these people are maniacal, what a bunch of fucking losers

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Originally posted by speedracer:
As a transplanted Detroiter, let me say that we Detroit hockey fans are quite grateful for the existence of Windsor channel 9 and CBC's Hockey Night in Canada.

Oh, and CK...don't ever confuse the Wings and Blackhawks again. You're just lucky this isn't the 50's (when the rivalry was really heated, it's no more than a slight wimper now).

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
I wish people would get as passionate about something like world hunger or human rights as they do about a fucking game, don't get me wrong, I love sports just as much as the next fool, but these people are maniacal, what a bunch of fucking losers

I couldn't agree with you more. It's probably because some people believe that "if it's not in my backyard"....which is a really sad and awful way to be. Getting pissed over some stupid sporting event is much easier.

 

[Clark W. Griswold Jr]

Originally posted by kobayashi:


New York mob torched Canadian flag

Hockey fans

 

[The Wanderer]

oh right, like that sort of behavior is exclusive to "hockey fans"

 

[kobayashi]

idiots. imagine being one of the NY Islanders, especially a canadian, and seeing your fans, the people that you inspire, do this.

though admittedly this is a very small number of people doing this while most likely drunk and psyched for a game, this will not come off very well in canada. anyone remember the time the flag was hung upside down?

from the national post

New York mob torched Canadian flag

Bruce Arthur
National Post
Thursday, May 02, 2002
ADVERTISEMENT

Days after being cheered as he sang the Canadian and American anthems before an NHL playoff game in Toronto, Robert Pomakov watched, horrified, as unruly New York hockey fans burned his Canadian flag in the parking lot of Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum.

Pomakov, an opera singer, saw both his Canadian and his Toronto Maple Leaf flags torn from his car and set on fire by a crowd chanting "U.S.A! U.S.A!" in the moments before Sunday's Game 6 between the Leafs and the New York Islanders.

"We lost four of our soldiers and they were basically defending these idiots," said an outraged Pomakov. "If patriotism is what drives these people and their ignorance, then I am ashamed to have our soldiers defending them."

Four Canadian soldiers were killed in Afghanistan on April 18 when a U.S. fighter plane mistakenly bombed them.

Pomakov, 21, is working on his masters of opera degree at the world-renowned Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia, from where he drove to Long Island for Sunday's game at the Coliseum, which is named in honour of U.S. war veterans.

He and fellow Torontonian Patrick Magee, also 21, decked themselves in Team Canada and Leafs jerseys and attached one regular-size Canadian flag and one Maple Leafs flag to broomsticks on their rental car. After being heckled as they pulled into the parking lot before the game, they could only look on as both flags were set alight.

"I was just shocked," he said. "There's a line that needs to be drawn, and this was so far across. You can't believe that you're watching the Canadian flag burn.

"There wasn't much we could do. There were a lot more of them than there were of us."

Pomakov felt the Americans' treatment of the Canadian flag was disgraceful.

Pomakov said the flags incident has not soured him on life in the United States. Still, he was pleased to see Toronto's Game 7 win on Tuesday, which set up a second-round Battle of Ontario series with the Ottawa Senators that begins tonight in Toronto.

Whatever the feelings of Torontonians toward the seat of federal government, or of Ottawans toward the seat of national commerce, the anthem is quite unlikely to be booed during the series.

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 05-02-2002).]

 

[BabyGrace]

that is so completely horrible, some people are just such brainless idiots it makes your head hurt to think about it. as an American I'd apologize on their behalf if it was my right to do so.

------------------
tomorrow's just an excuse away
so I pull my collar up and face the cold, on my own...

 

[Clark W. Griswold Jr]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
oh right, like that sort of behavior is exclusive to "hockey fans"

Alright, let me qualify that then. I'm sure that, since it's their game and all, most Canadians have a true appreciation of the game itself. In America, I'm not so sure. I think our fans are in it for the fights. At every hockey game I've ever been to, the crowd seems to be a collection of 18,000 drunk, junior high educated inbreds wearing WWF T-shirts.

Case in point: If I have a favorite team, it's the Caps. *Heaven only knows why.* Several years ago I went to a game down in Landover to see them play the Flyers. The Caps dumped Phily on their asses. In the parking lot afterwards a couple of jackasses tried to get in my face. Apparently, they saw my Pennsylvania license plates, put 2 and 2 together (came up with 5), and decided I was a Flyers fan. I suppose it was my fault, since I have better uses for $100 than to piss it away on a game jersey, which would have identified me better and been much less taxing on their feeble minds.

I got to another game recently at the MCI center downtown. Same crowd. I walked in and thought I was at a tractor pull. Hockey fans

 

[Zooropa]

Originally posted by Clark W. Griswold, Jr:
Alright, let me qualify that then. I'm sure that, since it's their game and all, most Canadians have a true appreciation of the game itself. In America, I'm not so sure. I think our fans are in it for the fights. At every hockey game I've ever been to, the crowd seems to be a collection of 18,000 drunk, junior high educated inbreds wearing WWF T-shirts.

Case in point: If I have a favorite team, it's the Caps. *Heaven only knows why.* Several years ago I went to a game down in Landover to see them play the Flyers. The Caps dumped Phily on their asses. In the parking lot afterwards a couple of jackasses tried to get in my face. Apparently, they saw my Pennsylvania license plates, put 2 and 2 together (came up with 5), and decided I was a Flyers fan. I suppose it was my fault, since I have better uses for $100 than to piss it away on a game jersey, which would have identified me better and been much less taxing on their feeble minds.

I got to another game recently at the MCI center downtown. Same crowd. I walked in and thought I was at a tractor pull. Hockey fans

yeah, whatever

------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Zooropa FTP

[This message has been edited by Zooropa (edited 05-03-2002).]

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by Clark W. Griswold, Jr:
Alright, let me qualify that then. I'm sure that, since it's their game and all, most Canadians have a true appreciation of the game itself. In America, I'm not so sure. I think our fans are in it for the fights. At every hockey game I've ever been to, the crowd seems to be a collection of 18,000 drunk, junior high educated inbreds wearing WWF T-shirts.

Case in point: If I have a favorite team, it's the Caps. *Heaven only knows why.* Several years ago I went to a game down in Landover to see them play the Flyers. The Caps dumped Phily on their asses. In the parking lot afterwards a couple of jackasses tried to get in my face. Apparently, they saw my Pennsylvania license plates, put 2 and 2 together (came up with 5), and decided I was a Flyers fan. I suppose it was my fault, since I have better uses for $100 than to piss it away on a game jersey, which would have identified me better and been much less taxing on their feeble minds.

I got to another game recently at the MCI center downtown. Same crowd. I walked in and thought I was at a tractor pull. Hockey fans

are those the only two cultural experiences you've had in the last few years?
if so i could see how you would reach that inference.
but if you have left your house for somewhere else than you must see a much more civil society than i have.

drunk people always have been and always will be here.
people are more aggressive, especially kids these days. not just the hockey fan kids, kids in general.
whether you're at school, a hockey game, or the mall a lot of people wear WWF paraphenelia-it's very popular right now.

let me tell you the average NHL attending experience is much more pleasant than your own. the MCI center for myself was very enjoyable. as was the spectrum, msg, jo louis(sp?) whichever other american arena i've been in. this is not a canada-america issue or a hockey or even sports issue.
it is society and it reflects its ugly head in everything. but that is another thread for another time in another forum, most likely.

 

[Clark W. Griswold Jr]

Originally posted by kobayashi:
are those the only two cultural experiences you've had in the last few years?

Must I answer this?

but if you have left your house for somewhere else than you must see a much more civil society than i have.

Actually , I do notice a difference between a hockey(WWF-NASCAR) crowd and the mainstream populous, thank you very much.

drunk people always have been and always will be here.
people are more aggressive, especially kids these days. not just the hockey fan kids, kids in general.

I concur, but I really wasn't speaking of kids; mostly the washed up 30 and 40 somethings who live vicariously through the thuggary they witness on the ice lately.


whether you're at school, a hockey game, or the mall a lot of people wear WWF paraphenelia-it's very popular right now.

Hmmm....within which socio-economic sector??

this is not a canada-america issue or a hockey or even sports issue.
it is society and it reflects its ugly head in everything.
I'm not sure I agree here. I would have to say I attend more college sports events than professional..at venues that do not sell alcohol. (Now, I'm not saying alcohol is the root of all evils. Many people, including myself can consume with responsibilty.) But the absence of beer in the stands definitely keeps the dirt bag population to a minimum at these games.

 

[kobayashi]

your statement is a rash generalization. i could say how my experiences in american hockey rinks are nothing short of pleasant and say i've met nothing but friendly people and we playfully joke about our allegiances. does that mean all american hockey fans are pleasant people? no.

you are right to a certain extent that there is a higher degree of rough housing in hockey. that is the nhl's dirty little secret. through that they have definetely gained some new fans. but to extend that thought to the burning of flags and harassing other fans is a stretch.

 

[The Wanderer]

I usually go to several games per year in either NY, NJ, Philadelphia or DC, and I've never had a bad experience in my home teams arena or any other -- no one has ever been hostile and threatened me or been nasty, they may give me dirty looks or make sarcastic comments, but the many of the fans have been very pleasant with me, even when I've gone into Philadelphia wearing a Devils jersey, sure, there is the occasional jackass who might make a comment, but out of 20,000 people, that's not such a bad ratio... and usually, I end up chatting with the people about hockey as if we were friends. last year in the playoffs, I went to a New Jersey - Toronto game, and there were several Toronto fans who made the trip down from Canada to be at the game (we are talking maybe a thousand or more fans), no one gave them any trouble, yeah there were a few obnoxious fans that may have said something if they cheered when Toronto scored, but I know I personally I enjoyed conversing with a group of three guys sitting next to me who were from somewhere near Toronto, I always enjoy talking to knowlegeable fans

but that's just been my experiences at the games I've been too

 

[Clark W. Griswold Jr]

Originally posted by kobayashi:

but to extend that thought to the burning of flags and harassing other fans is a stretch.

I guess what really pissed me off about the whole Canadian flag burning thing was that, as an American, I'm pretty well used to seeing our flag being torched by some chump from the Middle East or elsewhere in the third world. I can't tolerate fellow Americans involving themselves in the same childish actions.