Roy Retiring?
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AvsGirl41
New Yorker
Chizip said:
But by your reasoning, shouldn't Hasek have been able to carry Buffalo all the way?
I wouldn't credit him entirely for the Czech gold medal, they had a really good team that year *and* they lost the last Winter Olympics, with him in goal.
Also, he won a Cup in Detroit for the same reason--that was a great assembly of Red Wings. It wasn't like he had to carry the Nashville Predators or (dare I say it?) the Sabres.
Hasek was a great goalie and I would have him on my team anyday, but I'd still pick Roy. Unless he went crazy on me, then I'd trade him for Hasek.
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
For Chiz:
Exactly why I'd take Roy over Hasek. Stanley Cups and Conn Smythes are worth more than Vezina trophies. Even Hasek would tell you that. Roy has won 3 Vezinas, 3 Conn Smythes, and 4 Stanley Cups. Hasek has won 6 Venzinas, no Conn Smythes, and only 1 Cup. Oh gee, whose career would you rather have? Actually, don't answer that. It's pretty blatant who had the better career. These facts don't lie.
Exactly why I'd take Roy over Hasek. Stanley Cups and Conn Smythes are worth more than Vezina trophies. Even Hasek would tell you that. Roy has won 3 Vezinas, 3 Conn Smythes, and 4 Stanley Cups. Hasek has won 6 Venzinas, no Conn Smythes, and only 1 Cup. Oh gee, whose career would you rather have? Actually, don't answer that. It's pretty blatant who had the better career. These facts don't lie.
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Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
That's exactly it, AvsGirl...Hasek pretty much sold himself to the Stanley Cup by joining the Red Wings. I mean, this is a team that won the Cup with freakin no show Chris Osgood in net!AvsGirl41 said:
It obviously doesn't take much to win on that team, lol
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I rest my case.Chizip said:
Michael Griffiths said:
I can always count on you for arbitrary stats. Thank you.
Michael the Canadiens of the early 90's have actually produced superstars and a lot of hall of famers... don't bring up that crap about carrying a team. A goalie can maybe win one series by himself, but after that it has to be a team effort (even Giguere, if anyone actually watched the Ducks play).
As for winning 3 Conn Smythes... Joe Sakic was screwed out of it in 2001, he was the best player in the playoffs (other than the Ray Bourque presence). Can you tell me how the League MVP (among other awards) doesn't win the Conn Smythe when his team wins the cup?... Joe didn't exactly vanish (I think you remember how crappy Roy played against Vancouver... play which continued into the later rounds). They thought Roy was gonna retire (which he should have) so they gave him one last playoff MVP... complete horse doody.
Finally, I don't think anyone wants to demean the career of one Patrick Roy... but it is ultimately more disrespectful to over-exaggerate his accomplishments, especially when you compare him to his peers or predecessors.
PS- is it just me, or is the Finals in '93 the only Stanley Cup Final Michael has ever seen?
You mention it like it was your wedding or graduation.i admit that roy had longevity, which allowed to him to put up some nice stats. and that should be taken into account, so he probably is the best goalie, and he did have a better overall career. but, i think hasek had better skills. one on one, in their primes, give me hasek.
and dont give me the stanley cup crap, if hasek played for detroit his whole career he could have won 5 or 6, would that have made him a better goalie just because he was on a team with more talent? no.
the worst player on an awesome team could win a few cups, and a great player on a bad team could never win one. so can you say, well he had a better career because he had 3 cups to the other guy's 0? no, its not really fair because you have to take into account the teams they were on.
and dont give me the stanley cup crap, if hasek played for detroit his whole career he could have won 5 or 6, would that have made him a better goalie just because he was on a team with more talent? no.
the worst player on an awesome team could win a few cups, and a great player on a bad team could never win one. so can you say, well he had a better career because he had 3 cups to the other guy's 0? no, its not really fair because you have to take into account the teams they were on.
Michael Griffiths said:
I'd take the Vezinas... it's a measure of consistency against your peers. That trophy represents individual accomplishments, and since you are talking about individual accolades... a goalie with a plethora of Vezinas, or Jennings trophies to a lesser degree, would most logically have performed better.
PS- Why don't you tell us who votes on the Conn Smythe Mike?
AvsGirl41
New Yorker
Yeah, but weren't they going against the greatest goalie of all time in Giguere? 
(The Red Wings that is, I forgot to quote Chizzer)
(The Red Wings that is, I forgot to quote Chizzer)
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Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Easy, he doesn't play as well as the person who contributed more in the drive to winning the Cup. That does happen. If the entire team plays extremely well, sometimes several players deserve the award, but they can only give it to one person, as you know. Gretzky won 8 straight Hart Trophies in the 80s, but only 2 Conn Smythes. Obviously Messier and Hextall were just as deserving in a couple of those finals. Hextall, incidentally, didn't even win the Cup, but still won the Conn Smythe. That's when hockey was honest though.cujo said:
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
If Roy played for Detroit his entire career, they would have probably won *every* year...but why bother with such speculation?Chizip said:
Chizip said:
yet they cant win with cujo in net
Quiet you.
Alright, you've brought me in the mix... so I'll just rant on all y'all asses. Hasek played for Buffalo, which in its prime had a defense as suffocating as New Jersey... even though they couldn't score, they won by trapping (Lindy Ruff's work). He didn't play for a good team... but he played behind a great defense (not to mention the presence of the "Hey I've got a Selke trophy for every room in my house" Peca). After Buffalo fell apart with Peca's hold out, others left... and the defensive system collapsed. Hasek's numbers suffered as a result... and he fled for Detroit (to a hero's welcome).
I can rant all night... especially if you talkin' goaltendin'.
AvsGirl41
New Yorker
The lone chick in this thread must go now. 
I worry about leaving you boys alone, I know the sorts of things you get up to late at night. Especially when the debates get so...heated...
I worry about leaving you boys alone, I know the sorts of things you get up to late at night. Especially when the debates get so...heated...
Michael Griffiths said:
Roy played for a good team just about every year... and I think that AvsGirl can concede that Colorado has been just as good as Detroit the past few seasons (lest we forget Roy surrendered 7 goals in a game 7 performance, which is clutch if you ask me
)...
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
You'd take vezinas over the ultimate goal? The ultimate individual accomplishment (as well as team accomplishment) is to win the Stanley Cup. So you were saying?cujo said:
I'd take the Vezinas... it's a measure of consistency against your peers. That trophy represents individual accomplishments, and since you are talking about individual accolades... a goalie with a plethora of Vezinas, or Jennings trophies to a lesser degree, would most logically have performed better.
PS- Why don't you tell us who votes on the Conn Smythe Mike?
PS: the Professional Hockey Writer's Ass. votes on the Conn Smythe
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I don't like it when people edit my posts to say something different than what was said in the first place.cujo said:
stanley cups are won by teams, not goalies, it is not an individual accomplishment (i mean even osgood won one )
vezina is an individual award given to the best goalie in the league. (who may be on a team of losers who arent good enough to win a stanley cup, how can you hold it against the goalie if he gives up 1 goal a night and his team gets 0)
)vezina is an individual award given to the best goalie in the league. (who may be on a team of losers who arent good enough to win a stanley cup, how can you hold it against the goalie if he gives up 1 goal a night and his team gets 0)
Chizip said:
Well if he wasn't suffering, why did he leave Buffalo? Surely even an impotent scoring machine such as the sabres can muster more than 2.11 goals/game... check that stat out why don't you... And while you're at it, how about Martin Biron's stats... maybe even go back to the days of Dwayne Rolosson
PS- to Michael:
I was being caustic... I was trying to get you to admit who voted for the trophy. How honest those guys are.
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Goodbye AvsGirl!! I'll miss youAvsGirl41 said:The lone chick in this thread must go now.
I worry about leaving you boys alone, I know the sorts of things you get up to late at night. Especially when the debates get so...heated...
Michael Griffiths said:
I just shortened it... if I took anything out of context, I would have put a wink in there. Plus, that's what you said... the early days were when Hockey was honest... my mental faculties are unable to come up with an alternate meaning to what you said.
The gloves are off, and I'm gonna jersey both you're asses
... don't take anything I say too seriously. I tend to take goaltending debates a little personally... looks like I'm not the only one either.
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Then clearly we disagree on the overall philosophy behind "best" players. I believe the best players are also the best team players in that they show their greatness through team wins. Sure you can have talented losers...some made careers out of that *cough Marcel Dionn cough*, but in Patrick Roy's case, he was a Vezina finalist pretty much every year anyway. Add to that his 3 Vezinas and his 4 Cups and his 3 Conn Smythes, I really don't think 6 Vezinas would ever hold water to it.Chizip said:stanley cups are won by teams, not goalies, it is not an individual accomplishment (i mean even osgood won one
vezina is an individual award given to the best goalie in the league. (who may be on a team of losers who arent good enough to win a stanley cup, how can you hold it against the goalie if he gives up 1 goal a night and his team gets 0)
Patrick Roy was fantastic one on one. Did you ever watch him on the skills competition at the all star games? He's win pretty much every year. So the talent issue is really a mute point.
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