National Hockey League 2012-13

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Oh fuck the players too. Don't see how one can pick sides here. It's a bunch of selfish assholes who are ruining it for the fans who have already put up with this enough.
 
The players were at fault in 2004, but they are not this time around. They had no demands. They just wanted continuity. The owners are 100 percent at fault this time around. The players did nothing wrong. The owners are greedy fucking assholes and this lockout is an entirely one-sided argument. Eight years ago, both were wrong. Now? There is a legitimate right and a legitimate wrong. Anyone who sides with the greed of the owners is a fuckface. That's how I determine hockey media now.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
Oh fuck the players too. Don't see how one can pick sides here. It's a bunch of selfish assholes who are ruining it for the fans who have already put up with this enough.
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Legitimately offended by this as a hockey fan. It's amazing to me that you could say this, because I'm certain that you, as a hockey fan, have been following this closely. Which makes your statements all the more asinine. Insane, to me. The players are faultless in 2012. They asked for not an inch of advantage.
 
PhilsFan said:
The players were at fault in 2004, but they are not this time around. They had no demands. They just wanted continuity. The owners are 100 percent at fault this time around. The players did nothing wrong. The owners are greedy fucking assholes and this lockout is an entirely one-sided argument. Eight years ago, both were wrong. Now? There is a legitimate right and a legitimate wrong. Anyone who sides with the greed of the owners is a fuckface. That's how I determine hockey media now.
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Of course players don't want any changes,they were getting 57% of the revenues.


Keep these numbers in mind.Salaries increased 90% from 8 years ago,while Revenues increased 50% from that same period.How many businesses can fonction and survive with that disparities? none.

The NFL,the richest pro-league in north america ,are giving 48-49% of their revenues to the players (close to 10 billions $ in revenues in 2011).How the hell a league with 1/3 of that (3.3 billions$) can give 57% of their revenues to the players?.For 7 years,owners paid the bills with 43% of the revenues,Bettman,saying to the players "it's your turn".

Players won't win this battle,just like they didn't in 2004.Even with this ego-maniac that is Donald Fehr.If the players don't like the proposals,they have the choice of going in the KHL,or flipping hamburgers at Mcdonalds.
 
PhilsFan said:
Legitimately offended by this as a hockey fan. It's amazing to me that you could say this, because I'm certain that you, as a hockey fan, have been following this closely. Which makes your statements all the more asinine. Insane, to me. The players are faultless in 2012. They asked for not an inch of advantage.
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You're legitimately offended by that? It's asinine that I don't care about someone's personal paychecks? Are you kidding?

Both the owners and the players make enough money. I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong. There's much more to it than continuity and splitting share and all of that. It's a very superficial argument to just claim that because the players are taking a loss they're not at fault.

Why do you care how much money these players are making? What does that have a damn thing to do with hockey? It has zero to do with hockey. It's business. That's all it is. Business. And in this case, after a very, very long period of time, a very, very avoidable event occurred. I'm not judging who is right and who is wrong, because I don't give a shit. I want hockey, and I don't care what close-to-50% share of billions of dollars of the revenue each party gets. I simply don't give a shit.

Nor should you. As a hockey fan, you should want to watch hockey and watch your team, and that's all.
 
bono_man2002 said:
So no Hockey until the Winter Classic then? :sad:
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That's just speculation that they'd probably get a deal done by then.

If someone caves, it could be as early as late October/November. If nobody caves, they could come to an agreement by December. Or we could just miss the whole season...
 
I know what you meant, I was just teasing.

Although I'm not sure you mean by my attitude being 'like that'.

Since when was it considered a bad attitude to only care about the sport I love and the team I support? You don't like my attitude because I refuse to pick a side on a debate of business that has nothing to do with hockey?
 
God forbid I don't agree with what you've said? You're questioning my fan-hood with a statement like that. In fact, my fan-hood is as crystal clear as ever.

So you can criticize me and tell me my views are asinine, yet it's not okay for me to criticize you back? Come on...
 
Anyways, my opinion on this non-hockey matter is that the NHLPA is marginally at fault, anyways. Donald Fehr is an ass-hat and the whole image has been misconstrued to use the NHL's favorite man to hate, Gary Bettman, as a scapegoat.
 
My word, has anyone seen these ridiculous PR videos by both the NHL and the NHLPA?

Instead of actually debating and arguing over whatever it is they're arguing over, both sides have sought out to win the fans in the debate and make these stupid 'emotional' videos.

What on Earth would this accomplish? Oh, congratulations, the fans like the players better. The fans will earn you a paycheck or two. Gabriel fucking Landeskog is talking about how it's a dream, and how he's so grateful and all he wants to do is have the NHL see that the players are just trying to 'make it equal'.

Up yours, Landeskog. You make me feel old, quit your bitching with more money than a 19 year old would ever need. If there's ever a player who deserves to bitch over an issue like this, it's the fringe journeymen. You know, you could always just say 'it was my dream to play in the NHL, but it was also my dream to make $7 million a year. Don't let the NHL take my dream away and make me earn $6.66 million."

Worst part about all of this is on the other side of the debate you have SO MANY owners just sitting there claiming they just want to play hockey. Who is the NHL even fucking representing? Ass clowns all around. Screw Bill Daly, screw Gary Bettman, screw Donald Fehr, and screw his sheep.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
Oh fuck the players too. Don't see how one can pick sides here. It's a bunch of selfish assholes who are ruining it for the fans who have already put up with this enough.
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Considering it's the players who play the game, I give a fuck about the players. They are the ones who are out there putting their bodies on the line every game for the fans' entertainment. They are the reason that we tune in to see this game that we love. Most of them have been playing hockey since they could walk. They've only got so many years to play in the NHL and make good money. In other words: They gotta get while the gettin' is good. With the owners locking out the players and denying them an opportunity to earn their paychecks, they have to stand their ground and not allow the owners to be able to walk all over them and intimidate them.
 
What kind of precedent does it set if the players just said "hey, do whatever you want, we're just happy to be here!" every time?

Like I said, I was pissed off at both sides in 2004-2005. Not this time, though. The owners' demands are simply outrageous.
 
MrPryck2U said:
Considering it's the players who play the game, I give a fuck about the players. They are the ones who are out there putting their bodies on the line every game for the fans' entertainment. They are the reason that we tune in to see this game that we love. Most of them have been playing hockey since they could walk. They've only got so many years to play in the NHL and make good money. In other words: They gotta get while the gettin' is good. With the owners locking out the players and denying them an opportunity to earn their paychecks, they have to stand their ground and not allow the owners to be able to walk all over them and intimidate them.
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Yeah? It's the rich owners who are willing to invest their money into these teams and pay the massive salaries and operating costs. That goes both ways.

Don't give me that 'putting their bodies on the line every game' crap. They're doing so, and in return they're being funded millions of dollars. Do not try and sympathize with either party here over earning money. They're all set and they're all making in the smallest cases at least 10-15 times the national average.

I agree that the players might have to stand their ground at this point but to think that this wasn't a completely avoidable issue from the get-go is foolish. They dug themselves into the hole because they were the ones not being realistic at first.
 
PhilsFan said:
What kind of precedent does it set if the players just said "hey, do whatever you want, we're just happy to be here!" every time?

Like I said, I was pissed off at both sides in 2004-2005. Not this time, though. The owners' demands are simply outrageous.
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Yeah, because clearly they've said that every time. How can you declare the owners to be outrageous?

Simply because it was 43-57 and now their offer was 57-43? This goes both ways. The owners paid the bill for the past 8 years. It was never in the plan to keep that part of the CBA going. The players new that, the owners new that, and the league knew that. Now, a bunch of players hopped on the Donald Fehr bandwagon and bought into all of his crap and he's driving them into a gutter.
 
They did eight years ago. They accepted a 24 PERCENT ROLLBACK. Now they're supposed to accept another one?

They cannot allow the owners to come to the negotiating table every couple of years demanding huge salary rollbacks. They just can't. It would set the precedent that in every negotiation, the owners can just take whatever they want and the players will have to give in.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
Yeah? It's the rich owners who are willing to invest their money into these teams and pay the massive salaries and operating costs. That goes both ways.

Don't give me that 'putting their bodies on the line every game' crap. They're doing so, and in return they're being funded millions of dollars. Do not try and sympathize with either party here over earning money. They're all set and they're all making in the smallest cases at least 10-15 times the national average.

I agree that the players might have to stand their ground at this point but to think that this wasn't a completely avoidable issue from the get-go is foolish. They dug themselves into the hole because they were the ones not being realistic at first.
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Yes, because a huge gun is being held to these rich owners' heads and forcing them to willingly invest their money. If one wishes to own a sports team, that person better be prepared to spend enormous amounts of money in an attempt to operate that team successfully. This, obviously goes without saying of course. Any wealthy shithead can own an NHL team. Not every hockey player is good enough to play in the NHL. Thus, a premium is placed on being an NHL player. Sometimes a hefty one if that player is deemed to be in the upper echelon of the league.
 
A huge gun is being held to the players' heads forcing them to play for millions of dollars.

'Any wealthy shithead'. Got it. So rich people, owners, etc., are by default, the enemy? Do they represent 'the man'? Not every man is rich enough to support an NHL team, just like not every player is good enough to make it into the NHL.

I don't get it... why is this a point of concern? Yes, they should debate their salaries. No, it should never come to this. Both sides are to blame. Both are greedy. Both are selfish. But to try and point fingers at ownership and ownership alone is just silly.

Most of the teams operate at a loss, and the only thing holding the league together is revenue sharing. It's completely understandable to see an argument from both sides. It's not understandable to go as far as a lockout where everyone is a loser. From both sides. It's a mutual effort. It's not 'oh the players have to stand their ground', etc. It's as simple as compromise must be made from both ends. They've had all fucking summer to figure it out and that shithead Donald Fehr doesn't give a damn.

There's two people whose paychecks go untouched and don't give a rats ass about a lockout. Their names are Gary Bettman and Donald Fehr. Don't be fooled, this is an equal bout of bullshit.

But all business aside, hockey is hockey. I don't care if someone loses. These players are not my friends. These players are not my family. These players' salaries mean very little to me. I watch hockey for the sport I love, and the team I support. I do not watch it for a business revenue, just like I do not watch it for a salary. That's what owners and players do. It's none of my business and the only thing I'm concerned about is getting to watch the sport I love. But for the love of god please do not drag a relationship between paychecks and the game.
 
You are all over the place dude. Without the players, there is no team! Therefore nothing to root for or love. Yes, the owners own the team, but the players are the ones who make up the team. And less than 1000 people in the world right now as we speak have the ability to compete in the NHL. That makes them pretty fuckin' special. The players window to utilize their chance to play in the NHL isn't open forever. They've put in the hard work most of their lives to get to the NHL and make top money. Their time has come and eventually its going to go away. Fans come out to see star players, not just the team.

There are no "rich" owners. There are wealthy owners. A rich person could fuck up and be poor tomorrow. A wealthy person is set for life. Some of the NHL's owners might have been great in whatever vocation made them their money, but when it comes to owning an NHL team, they know shit. Hence, shithead owners. If they piss away millions per year on their team, there's still more in the coffers from outside revenue. I dont look at the owners as the enemy per se. Bettman is definitely the enemy here. Fehr has a shady past for sure too.

Honestly, you come off as pretty heartless. You love hockey, but couldn't care less about the players actually playing it. They have lives too. This isn't some dumb ass video game. Not all of them make a million dollars or more per season.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
A huge gun is being held to the players' heads forcing them to play for millions of dollars.

'Any wealthy shithead'. Got it. So rich people, owners, etc., are by default, the enemy? Do they represent 'the man'? Not every man is rich enough to support an NHL team, just like not every player is good enough to make it into the NHL.

I don't get it... why is this a point of concern? Yes, they should debate their salaries. No, it should never come to this. Both sides are to blame. Both are greedy. Both are selfish. But to try and point fingers at ownership and ownership alone is just silly.

Most of the teams operate at a loss, and the only thing holding the league together is revenue sharing. It's completely understandable to see an argument from both sides. It's not understandable to go as far as a lockout where everyone is a loser. From both sides. It's a mutual effort. It's not 'oh the players have to stand their ground', etc. It's as simple as compromise must be made from both ends. They've had all fucking summer to figure it out and that shithead Donald Fehr doesn't give a damn.

There's two people whose paychecks go untouched and don't give a rats ass about a lockout. Their names are Gary Bettman and Donald Fehr. Don't be fooled, this is an equal bout of bullshit.

But all business aside, hockey is hockey. I don't care if someone loses. These players are not my friends. These players are not my family. These players' salaries mean very little to me. I watch hockey for the sport I love, and the team I support. I do not watch it for a business revenue, just like I do not watch it for a salary. That's what owners and players do. It's none of my business and the only thing I'm concerned about is getting to watch the sport I love. But for the love of god please do not drag a relationship between paychecks and the game.
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There is a lot going on here.

First of all, I think you have a misunderstanding about how unions work. The point of unions is not to protect the multi-million dollar salaries of your Sidney Crosby's and even Gabriel Landeskog's. They're about the lower earners. So, when you think about who is really being impacted every time the owners try to push salaries down even further, think about the twentieth guy on the roster, who could be sent down to the AHL as soon as someone else gets healthy, who could himself be getting hurt any day now.

To accuse the players of being selfish for not wanting to take a second massive hit in earnings in eight years is the issue we have with what you are saying. They're trying to stand their ground so that the owners don't get to push them around every time the two sides head back to the negotiating table. Donald Fehr isn't selling them bullshit. Donald Fehr is trying to avoid a slippery slope.

And if most teams operate at a loss (which is not even accurate anyway), whose fault is that? Should Keaton Ellerby be forced to take a big loss in salary just because Gary Bettman is an idiot who expanded the league into too many markets?

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some give on the part of the players. What I am saying is that the stance that the NHL has taken in these negotiations is fucking insane.

Even worse, they're talking about how awful their finances are while doing this that would make no sense if their finances were so bad. A few months back, the owner of the Minnesota Wild said something akin to, "We need to cut back on expenses. Our biggest expenses are salaries for players, so let's cut back on those. Let's change the system." And then, not too long after saying that, he signed two players to a combined $200 million deal.

Fuck the owners. They're hypocritical fucks who deserve the full blame for this mess.
 
LUNEDEMINUIT said:
The NFL,the richest pro-league in north america ,are giving 48-49% of their revenues to the players (close to 10 billions $ in revenues in 2011).How the hell a league with 1/3 of that (3.3 billions$) can give 57% of their revenues to the players?.For 7 years,owners paid the bills with 43% of the revenues,Bettman,saying to the players "it's your turn".
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I'm just seeing this now, but this shows a misunderstanding of the differences between professional sports leagues. The main thing: you're talking about the splits of "football-related revenue" and "hockey-related revenue." The way that the sports define those things are different. Hockey-related revenue has a narrower definition, which means that the owners have more revenue sources that are not divided at all: they go straight back into their pockets.

To sum up: The 57 percent the hockey players are taking is from a (relatively and literally) smaller pot than the one the football players are taking from.

On top of this, the owners' proposal, from some reports, has sought to make the definition of hockey-related revenue even narrower. This would mean that they want to lower the percentage players receive while increasing the amounts of revenue that they don't have to share with players at all.
 
A reason of the small pot is where the revenues are coming from, from both leagues.The NFL gets it in large part from the gazillion $$ TV deal,while the NHL gets it mostly from ticket sales
 
MrPryck2U said:
You are all over the place dude. Without the players, there is no team! Therefore nothing to root for or love. Yes, the owners own the team, but the players are the ones who make up the team. And less than 1000 people in the world right now as we speak have the ability to compete in the NHL. That makes them pretty fuckin' special. The players window to utilize their chance to play in the NHL isn't open forever. They've put in the hard work most of their lives to get to the NHL and make top money. Their time has come and eventually its going to go away. Fans come out to see star players, not just the team.

There are no "rich" owners. There are wealthy owners. A rich person could fuck up and be poor tomorrow. A wealthy person is set for life. Some of the NHL's owners might have been great in whatever vocation made them their money, but when it comes to owning an NHL team, they know shit. Hence, shithead owners. If they piss away millions per year on their team, there's still more in the coffers from outside revenue. I dont look at the owners as the enemy per se. Bettman is definitely the enemy here. Fehr has a shady past for sure too.

Honestly, you come off as pretty heartless. You love hockey, but couldn't care less about the players actually playing it. They have lives too. This isn't some dumb ass video game. Not all of them make a million dollars or more per season.
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Without the owners, there is no team. Without the funding, there is no team. Nothing to root for, nothing to love. You can go in circles here, or you can just see that this goes both ways.

Stop looking at it so magnificently. The amazing players, the risks they take, the bodies that they sacrifice! The money they earn to do so.

Whatever, there's a lot to say to what you've written here but honestly if you're going to call me "heartless" because I don't glorify what the players do and innately think the owners and the NHL are evil, well then... Much like the NHL and the NHLPA, we are on two completely different frequencies.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
Without the owners, there is no team. Without the funding, there is no team. Nothing to root for, nothing to love. You can go in circles here, or you can just see that this goes both ways.

Stop looking at it so magnificently. The amazing players, the risks they take, the bodies that they sacrifice! The money they earn to do so.

Whatever, there's a lot to say to what you've written here but honestly if you're going to call me "heartless" because I don't glorify what the players do and innately think the owners and the NHL are evil, well then... Much like the NHL and the NHLPA, we are on two completely different frequencies.
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Dude, I'm saying that you're "coming off" as pretty heartless. Not that you "are" pretty heartless. I don't think the owners are evil. Never said that once or elluded to it. I did say that there are some shitheads because some of them don't know what they're doing. I'm not glorifying the players. I'm recognizing that they are part of a small percentage of human being who can play NHL hockey. Of course they're getting fuckin paid. They ain't gonna do it for free. Why don't we just discontinue the NHL because these players want to actually get paid to play in it? You're not looking at the players as human beings. You're looking at them as widgets.
 
I don't think owners are innately evil. I just think it's ridiculous to own a sports franchise that you don't have the money to operate.
 
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