Lockout!

[U2Fan101]

I'm siding with the owners on this lockout. Too many players are making too damn much money. 75 percent of the revenue is going to the players, and they complain that they want more money. This lockout isn't the owners' fault; they've made propsals numerous times. The union - 2 in one year. And it was for the most part, the same thing.

Fuck the union.

Go Bettman. He's got brass balls. Whichever side wins the CBA, the other side will lose - if the owners win, Goodenow will be fired. if the union wins, Bettman will get fired since he promised something close to a cap.

 

[Hallucination]

I think if the season is lost then Goodenow will lose his job. Bettman should stick to his guns. On the day they announced the lockout Bettman looked and sounded genuinely pissed off about it. Goodenow on the other hand acted all noncholant. He pisses me off royally.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Seriously what do they even need a union for? What? The wages and working conditions not up to par? FUCK OFF!!!!

While I don't agree with the lockout, there was a big need for a union. Watch the movie "Net Worth" sometime and you'll see what the NHL players dealt with in the pre-union days.

It doesn't mean I agree with the actions of the NHLPA now, but there was once upon a time when they were treated like shit.

 

[Hallucination]

While I don't agree with the lockout, there was a big need for a union. Watch the movie "Net Worth" sometime and you'll see what the NHL players dealt with in the pre-union days.

It doesn't mean I agree with the actions of the NHLPA now, but there was once upon a time when they were treated like shit.

This is so true. But that was back in the days when the players had day jobs. Tell me a player making 4 million a year to play a game and travel across North America with a bunch of freinds, eat at all the ritzy dinners and have doctors up the ying yang at your beck and call needs a union. I mean the average person would be thrilled with the imediate access to MRI's that players have let alone the salary and oportunity's they've been affored. Serioulsy this is the dream world the players live in. they get millions of dollars and instant health care access and yet they want more or at least what's "fair". Gimme a break. I needed an MRI on my wrist once and I had to wait 7 weeks. But you are right AvsGirl41, there was a time when the union was necessary. It's just that time has come and gone.

 

[Lemon Meringue]

What is pissing me off is that they aren't even trying to work something out. No meetings. No nothing. Watch a joke.

 

[AvsGirl41]

The following is a copy of an email I received. I believe all prices are in Canadian dollars:

Hundreds of Professional Hockey players in our very own nation are locked out, living at well below the seven-figure salary level. And as if that weren't bad enough they could be deprived of their life giving pay for several months, possibly longer, as a result of the upcoming lockout situation.

I forgot to tell you fah, but that was great. I've sent it to so many people now and they all loved it.

LM, no kidding. I can't really agree with either side, because the owners are making money without having to spend it.

 

[kobayashi]

because the owners are making money without having to spend it.

this is what fans seem to forget when they wholly blame the players.

the owners product is principally composed of the players. the owners can turn a profit but only a quarter of them do.

granted, greed on the part of players and their representation for higher salaries makes it tougher to ice a profitable and competitive team.

why should the salary of a toronto maple leaf star be subject to a salary cap when the team is quite willing to spend tens of millions of dollars and turn a huge profit at the same time?

you might say, because millions is more than enough. but the real question is 'is the player being correctly compensated for their contribution to the team?'. maple leaf tickets will likely still be between $50 and $300 under a cap, so where is the newly free money going? the owner.

tickets being the market price, owners are unlikely to bring them down simply because their salary money allocation has been reduced. that being said, there are some arenas that are over priced or incorrectly located (nice way of putting it) given the empty seats.

to blame one side more than another is silly. it requires comprimise and at present both sides appear to hard headed to progress.

 

[fah]

What is pissing me off is that they aren't even trying to work something out. No meetings. No nothing. Watch a joke.

What's really sad is that I'm starting to hear conflicting stories as to when the season will be cancelled. As if it is a done deal.



<thanks AvsGirl >

 

[cujo]

I would like to see how those who have denounced the inflation of player salaries would handle a position in the arbitration process. Morality is really solid grounds for financial determinations in business...



The reality is, the owners created the market, the demand... and the vessels for distributing salaries. There are many businesses out there whose practice doesn't subscribe to what most would label as just... and there are many other situations where earnings don't logically follow from the type of occupation.

Using the NHL as a microcosm for the enacting of some sort of Keynesian adjustment, or to help create a standard of value for careers and lifestyles in society as a whole... that's completely unfair and outside the context of collective bargaining discussions.

The issue is how to adjust player salaries... not how to justify them. Like kobayashi said, it's the obligation of both sides.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Well said, you two.

I can't blame the players. I've tried and I can't really shake my fist at them...

When it comes down to who's been nicer to me, Milan Hejduk or Stan Kronke, I'd have to go with the former.

Plus Pierre Lacroix solely blames the players for not coming to the table, and you know you can't trust anything that scumbag says.

 

[Hallucination]

this is what fans seem to forget when they wholly blame the players.

the owners product is principally composed of the players. the owners can turn a profit but only a quarter of them do.

granted, greed on the part of players and their representation for higher salaries makes it tougher to ice a profitable and competitive team.

why should the salary of a toronto maple leaf star be subject to a salary cap when the team is quite willing to spend tens of millions of dollars and turn a huge profit at the same time?

you might say, because millions is more than enough. but the real question is 'is the player being correctly compensated for their contribution to the team?'. maple leaf tickets will likely still be between $50 and $300 under a cap, so where is the newly free money going? the owner.

tickets being the market price, owners are unlikely to bring them down simply because their salary money allocation has been reduced. that being said, there are some arenas that are over priced or incorrectly located (nice way of putting it) given the empty seats.

to blame one side more than another is silly. it requires comprimise and at present both sides appear to hard headed to progress.

To blame the players is right. If they don't think it's fair then let them all quit and go apprentice as a plumber or electrician where their salaries will be capped regardless of their contribution to the company. PLayers seem to forget who's fronting the money here. It's the owners. If the players were in any other feild of work their salaries would be capped. If they don't like it then too bad. I say cap their salaries and break the damn union. Players are acting like little bitches. They won't play for an average salary of 1.3 million and a 55% take on league revenue yet they'll go and play for extremely less money in European leagues, puting their entire future in the NHL at risk. Doesn't really add up does it. The players suck. They're greedy as hell and have lost all touch with reality.
A league run on Market place value doesn't work because there is no such thing as a market value. Teams like Toronto, Detroit, New York, Dallas have made the idea of "market value" obsolete. They drive up salaries and force smaller markets to do the same for fear of losing their "assets"(Players). The "market value" of players is not accurate. How else do you explain guys like Holik making 9 million per season. Yeah that's market value alright Now you might say that's the owners fault and sure you might be right but it's the owners of teams in markets that have an unlimited budget to deal with who do this. The smaller markets then have to take the hit and offer their restricted free agents a matching offer to keep thier players. A cap protects the league from the big markets being able to do this. Yes there are two sides to it I can agree on that, but the players are the ones who in my opinion who are losing the respect of the fans. They look like asses for continueing to say that they just want a deal that's "fair" Hmmmm...... Seems to me that any deal is gonna be fair. If not let them walk and become like the rest of us; people who WORK under structuired salaries that eventually have a cap. Players doen't even work. Yes it might be hard "work" but it's not work. And they'll be paid millions to do it with or without a cap.

 

[Hallucination]

Plus Pierre Lacroix solely blames the players for not coming to the table, and you know you can't trust anything that scumbag says. [/B]

Yeah but he was once a player agent. Patrick Roy's to name one player. I have a hard time not beliveing what guys like Wayne Gretzky and Kevin Lowe have to say about the state of the game. Do we really think that Gretzky would lie to the players? I highly doubt it. The players just don't care. All they want is money and if the NHL isn't willing to pay it than they'll just get up and go play in other leagues and not have to worry about it. It makes no sense to me how a union can have a bunch of players who feel their that a salary cap is not fair yet they play for far less in Europe on individula contracts. Hilarious. Imagine the workers at Chrysler going over to work for Ford while being locked out.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Yeah but he was once a player agent. Patrick Roy's to name one player. I have a hard time not beliveing what guys like Wayne Gretzky and Kevin Lowe have to say about the state of the game.

Oh yeah. Trust an agent! Good one!

Go through any of Lacroix's press statements over his time as GM, you can count the true statements on one hand.

Where he gained such a solid reputation, I'll never know. If he told Colorado fans the sky was red, they'd believe it.

 

[cujo]

Seems to me that any deal is gonna be fair. If not let them walk and become like the rest of us; people who WORK under structuired salaries that eventually have a cap. Players doen't even work. Yes it might be hard "work" but it's not work. And they'll be paid millions to do it with or without a cap.

So, essentially a unilateral deal that conforms to every single demand delivered by the owners? Now that sounds reasonable to me...



The argument that players don't perform work is ridiculous. A great portion of the upper echelon athletes in the NHL realize they're in a very unique and privileged position, often sparking a movement towards providing philanthropy and exposure to causes or charities that do not normally receive any of the spotlight. Sometimes such civic duties are contractual obligations, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the players go beyond the boards of the rink to promote both the sport and their own team. Why should there be a cap that infringes on these players and their personal license? Since the spirit of this discussion so far has been directed towards outrageous analogies, do you think your cynicism regarding salaries has to do with hockey or entertainers in general?

If so, to be consistent, you would have to go to Bono's and Ed Begley Jr.'s respective houses and tell them that their agencies and companies have set a bar for their income, simply because what they do can't be classified as "work" in the purest of senses.

Why is the answer more regulation, in your opinion? Everything you have said so far is firmly entrenched in your own morality, which is a dangerous trait to have in diplomatic situations such as this... do I myself think the players deserve their wages? In some instances yes, but that has no bearing whatsoever on this process. To suggest that the player's association should disband on the grounds that their collective voice is fundamentally not important lends too much power to a governing body that has continually gone against its constituents' opinions... both players and fans alike.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Cujo, once again you shame us with your eloquence.

 

[speedracer]

Gary Bettman's gotta take some flak just for attempting to make the league grow too fast as well...he had a lot of people thinking the NHL really was going to make it big in a lot of markets.

 

[fah]

The regular season should have started today

 

[AvsGirl41]

Hey, how come the biggest hockey discussion is in IO?

 

[GibsonGirl]

The regular season should have started today

I'm having a very hard time dealing with this at the moment.

 

[fah]

I think it is time for a group

 

[AvsGirl41]

 

[GibsonGirl]

Did any of you see Nike's "Bring it Back" commercial? It almost made me cry.

 

[fah]

Bring it back as in hockey....

Well that just fills me with glee to know that Nike will be making money during the lockout

Oh, but I digress

 

[DaveC]

FIRE GARY BETTMAN!!

 

[jumpmanjr]

Solution is Luxury Tax

The solution would be to apply a salary cap with such a high tax ratio that it acts like a cap but not quite. I say

"Salary cap at 45 million with 80% tax for total player salaries above that. Tax revenue distributed amongst lower income teams."

 

[bcrt2000]

http://www.nike.com/canada/nikehockey/lockout/

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Re: Solution is Luxury Tax

The solution would be to apply a salary cap with such a high tax ratio that it acts like a cap but not quite. I say

"Salary cap at 45 million with 80% tax for total player salaries above that. Tax revenue distributed amongst lower income teams."

that's not a cap... that's a luxary tax. it's the same system the NBA has. the best solution for the NHL would be a hard cap and revenue sharing system like the NFL has. if the NFL was under the system that the NHL or Major League Baseball uses, the Green Bay Packers would no longer exist. But they're able to exist in such a small market because of the revenue sharing.

However there-in lies the major problem with the NHL's CBA and thus why there won't be an agreement anytime soon... the NFL's system is the best system for the NHL, yet it'll never work. Oxymoronic yes... but true none the less. The reason the NFL's revenue sharing system works is because of the TV money they get. They get the TV money because there's only 16 games in an NFL season. Every game is an event. It's the nature of the sport. Even the casual football fan can sit down for 16 sundays and watch his/her team. Only the most insane diehard fans of the NHL could even come close to watching 82 games. And the casual fans don't even watch hockey anymore, because the neutral zone trap makes the sport boring for those who have merely a casual interest. If the TV ratings were there, a solution could be worked out that could work for both sides. But NHL ratings are the lowest they've ever been, and this is only going to make them lower.

As for the insinuation that playing a professional sport is not "work," well that's simply a load of bullshit. Just because the job is enjoyable doesn't mean it is not a job. They are athletes and they are entertainers. Acting is a job. Being a musician is a job. Playing a sport professionaly is also a job. The average athlete puts in their 40 hours of work durring the season, if you count practices, weight training, film work, PR, travel time, games and pre-game walk throughs, etc. etc. The average coach puts in even more than 40 hours a week. In the offseason they go home and have to continue to work out daily, otherwise they'll lose their job.

As for the oft used argument of "they get paid millions to play a game," well... yea... that's true. However... if you were a teacher, and the school you worked at made billions of dollars a year, and you were one of that school's top teachers, you'd be getting paid millions of dollars as well. Players make a lot of money because the business makes a lot of money... period. And the owners, on average, make a hell of a lot more money. Not all of them, of course... there's still the same heirarchy of haves vs. have nots in hockey that there is in major league baseball. but at least the yankees don't claim they're losing money, unlike the dispicable claim that Rangers owner Charles Dolan made. the rangers sell out madison square garden every night with the highest ticket prices in the league. lose money? my ass.

 

[cujo]

If anyone is to read any post this year, it's the one just above mine.

Headache, once again... you've won the thread.

 

[drivemytrabant]

Ok I don't like hockey. But as a baseball fan I certainly understand your pain. '94 almost ruined baseball. I hope it doesn't have the same affect on hockey.

 

[fah]