Is Jordan The Greatest Of All Time?
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The Wanderer
Kid A
are you serious?!?!?
MJ wins easily
MJ wins easily
bonoman
Refugee
Well if your talking defensive Jordan is one of the greatest if you talk offensive he is the greatest. If you talk clutch, greatest. If you talk rings greatest.
I'll say greatest.
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I'll say greatest.
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Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."
"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono
Jordan is the greatest of all time, IMO. However, Jordan won his championships against teams that Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers (except the 91 team, for obvious reasons) would have beaten handily. After Magic's 91 team, Jordan beat Drexler's Blazers, Barkley's Suns, Malone and Stockton's Jazz and Payton's Sonics. He would not have won 6 championships had he played his prime years in the 1980's. If he entered the league with Magic and Bird, he probably would have been considered merely their equal rather than the unequivocally the greatest of all time. That said, he probably is.
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Live As If You'll Die Tomorrow, Dream As If You'll Live Forever
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The Wanderer
Kid A
those Laker and Celtic teams may have beaten those Blazer/Sun/Jazz/Sonic teams handily, but so what, Jordan's Bulls would have beaten those Laker and Celtic teams more often than not, especially the late 90s team with Rodman/Harper/Kukoc; those Celtic and Laker teams couldnt match the defensive juggernaut of that Bulls team
Gina Marie
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Well, I'm a Bird fan myself-then of course there's Bill Russell, Magic, et al.
And what are the criteria? i.e.individual stats vs. being more of a team player
point scoring vs. defensive capability, rebounding, etc.
What do you think-is he? I guess even I'd have to admit he probably is, even though it's also subjective-and we all weren't around to see the 'old timers'
And what are the criteria? i.e.individual stats vs. being more of a team player
point scoring vs. defensive capability, rebounding, etc.
What do you think-is he? I guess even I'd have to admit he probably is, even though it's also subjective-and we all weren't around to see the 'old timers'
PopFly
War Child
I think the only NBA player comparable to Jordan is Wilt Chamberlain, but Jordan has an edge when it comes to playing in the clutch. Sure, Wilt won two rings, but he was never seen as a 'big game' player...just look at how many times Bill Russell topped him.
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Adam: Look guys, I got a Springfield spoon for my spoon collection.
Edge: Oh boy, here we go...
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Adam: Nine. If I didn't have my spoons, I'd go insane.
Bono: Can I see it?
*adam gives bono the spoon, bono throws it away*
Adam: My spoon!
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"You gotta love living, baby, 'cause dyin's a pain in the ass."-- Frank Sinatra
Adam: Look guys, I got a Springfield spoon for my spoon collection.
Edge: Oh boy, here we go...
Bono: Wow, how many is that now Adam?
Adam: Nine. If I didn't have my spoons, I'd go insane.
Bono: Can I see it?
*adam gives bono the spoon, bono throws it away*
Adam: My spoon!
speedracer
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Um...try to imagine Luc Longley and Bll Cartwright defending Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Robert Parish for a moment, please.
speedracer
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I've never been impressed with Jordan's defensive ability. It seems like he makes all his defensive plays when he gets assigned to the other team's weaker guard and can play help defense against guys driving to the basket.
The Wanderer
Kid A
haha!!!!
oh man, well you ruined all your credibility with that last statement speedracer, you're starting to sound like Bill Walton
say what you want about the center matchups, but I seem to recall the Bulls being able to contain centers in the East like Patrick Ewing and Shaquille O'Neil on a regular basis, and of course they it goes without saying they did the same to guards and forwards like Malone, Stockton, Payton, Kemp, Reggie Miller, Drexler, Hardaway (both), Barkley, KJ, etc, etc, etc...
oh man, well you ruined all your credibility with that last statement speedracer, you're starting to sound like Bill Walton
say what you want about the center matchups, but I seem to recall the Bulls being able to contain centers in the East like Patrick Ewing and Shaquille O'Neil on a regular basis, and of course they it goes without saying they did the same to guards and forwards like Malone, Stockton, Payton, Kemp, Reggie Miller, Drexler, Hardaway (both), Barkley, KJ, etc, etc, etc...
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
Even better would be imagining anyone from those Bulls teams trying to stop Kevin McHale in the low post.
The Celts and Lakers of the 80's would have found ways to slow MJ down (Dennis Johnson or Micheal Cooper for example), and the Bulls other options would have been few...whereas if you stop Bird, you have to deal with McHale and Parish, you stop Magic, you still deal with Kareem and Worthy...those 2 teams were far superior to any Bulls team.
As for an individual, Jordan is certainly at or near the top, its just tough to compare eras...but he was no Paul Mokeski.
speedracer
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Sounding like Bill Walton, you say? As in arrogant and condescending?
I stand by my claim. Jordan absolutely hated defending guards who run all over the court, and he's admitted as much publicly.
Jordan was certainly a good defender, but as for on-the-ball defense and team defense combined I'll take Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars and Gary Payton over Jordan any day.
True, but like Hewson has mentioned, Kareem, James Worthy, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish are a cut above Patrick Ewing and the early Shaquille O'Neal.
Gina Marie
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
And Kevin McHale was a great player.
One time, I went on one of those 'behind the scenes' things @ the old Garden, and I got to go in the locker room.
Larry's locker was a MESS
, and I wanted to steal at least one of his socks-or Kevin's.
Sorry, strayed off topic there.
And at least Larry knew the meaning of the word retirement
One time, I went on one of those 'behind the scenes' things @ the old Garden, and I got to go in the locker room.
Larry's locker was a MESS
Sorry, strayed off topic there.
And at least Larry knew the meaning of the word retirement
The Wanderer
Kid A
alright, first of all let me just say that no one likes to chase around guards who run all over the court!!! and Patrick Ewing was a better center than Robert Parish... McHale and Worthy would have had to match up against Rodman -- who may be the greatest rebounder/defender at his position in NBA history... Pippen would have guarded Magic or Bird (and done at the very least a respectable job, as he did with every great offensive player he faced during those years); and you actually think someone like Danny Ainge, DJ Johnson, Byron Scott or Michael Cooper would have had any success matching up against Jordan??? first of all, nobody on these teams could defend Jordan (there were really only two guys that ever had any success against him: Joe Dumars in the early years, and "the glove" Gary Payton, and even he didnt defend Jordan very well); and don't forget Ron Harper was a premier defender, and extremely versatile
Toni Kukoc was a great sixth-man back then, when he had Jordan and Phil Jackson keeping him motivated and focused; of course it's unfortunate for Toni he wasn't in the league a decade earlier, when his lack of defense wouldn't have been as much an issue, he probably would have been an all-star in the 80s
the Bulls team of the early 90s wouldn't have beaten those Celtic and Laker teams, but the team of the late 90s with Jordan/Pippen/Rodman/Harper/Kukoc was the greatest team ever
Toni Kukoc was a great sixth-man back then, when he had Jordan and Phil Jackson keeping him motivated and focused; of course it's unfortunate for Toni he wasn't in the league a decade earlier, when his lack of defense wouldn't have been as much an issue, he probably would have been an all-star in the 80s
the Bulls team of the early 90s wouldn't have beaten those Celtic and Laker teams, but the team of the late 90s with Jordan/Pippen/Rodman/Harper/Kukoc was the greatest team ever
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
Check some tape of how the worm fared against Herman Munster McHale in his Piston days...Rodman usually had more fouls than minutes played.
Charles Barkley has said that McHale was the best player he ever had to defend.
The Wanderer
Kid A
Charles Barkley never defended anybody though
so I guess you are saying McHale is better than Karl Malone? anyway, I think later today I may check out for sure what happened in their career matchups, doubt I'll be reviewing much game film though, can't stand seeing grown men wearing those Daisy-Duke shorts
so I guess you are saying McHale is better than Karl Malone? anyway, I think later today I may check out for sure what happened in their career matchups, doubt I'll be reviewing much game film though, can't stand seeing grown men wearing those Daisy-Duke shorts
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
Actually I would take Kevin McHale over Karl Malone without question.
Fact: Kevin McHale only player in NBA history to shoot 60%FG and 80%FT in same season.
Those shorts were hideous.
Fact: Kevin McHale only player in NBA history to shoot 60%FG and 80%FT in same season.
Those shorts were hideous.
Gina Marie
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I'd also take McHale over Malone-I think the Mailman failed to deliver.
I agree though-those shorts were pretty hideous-but all the better for showing off those pasty white thighs.
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
GM...if you recall your local history it was Danny Ainge who nicknamed McHale "Herman Munster".
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The joker is the best card.
Gina Marie
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Yeah-but you didn't have to repeat it.
Malone will go down with better career stats, however....
McHale at his best was better than Malone. Many feel that McHale was the greatest power forward of all time. He had the complete package.
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Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
Simple longevity.
Matthew_Page2000
War Child
Taking nothing away from Jordan, anyone who thinks Rodman and Longley would have fared well against McHale and Parrish has been smoking too much crack. Fact: the 85-86 Celtics with Bird, McHale, Parrish and sixth man of the year Bill Walton would have killed, no MURDERED the Bulls up front. Take a look at McHales stats when he matched up with Rodman--he ate him alive. We're talking a frontcourt consisting of 4 (FOUR) of the 50-Greatest NBA players of all time. Three of them (Mchale, Parrish and Walton) were 6'11" or taller. McHale, Bird and Parrish were in their primes. Walton, as I mentioned before was still great enough to be sixth man of the year. The backcourt wasn't as spectacular but it featured two all stars in Ainge and DJ, both of whom were excellent defensive players. The Celts had a great bench beyond Walton. And that Celtics team won 67 games in a time before the league was the watered down mess it was when the Bulls won 72.
Celtics in six games. If Jordan weren't so spectacular it would be a sweep.
MAP
Celtics in six games. If Jordan weren't so spectacular it would be a sweep.
MAP
The Wanderer
Kid A
Bill Walton averaged 7.6 pts and 6.8 rbs, the simple fact is he was a mere shadow of the player he was in the 70s and early 80s, fighting thru numerous injuries that would soon end his career, the 6th Man Award was a bi-product of the Celtics great season
McHale vs. Rodman: Detroit pushed Boston to 7 games in the Eastern Conference Finals in 86-87 (with Larry Legend providing the heroics in that series, not McHale); Detroit then defeated Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals the following year before losing to the Lakers; McHale and Rodman matched up again in 90-91 as the World Champion Pistons eliminated the Celts easily
now Matthew and anyone else, please provide these cherised stats you speak of that supposedly indicate how McHale "ate up" Rodman, Rodman was a perennial first team all-defense member from 88 thru 98, winning Defensive Player of the Year on a couple of occasions (and leading the NBA in rebounding during this same time, the pinnacle in 92 when he average 19 per game); and let's remember that Rodman's prime was began in the late 80s
career stats...
Kevin McHale: 18 pts, 7 rbs, 1.7 assts, 7-time all-star, 3 NBA titles
Karl Malone: 26 pts, 10.5 rbs, 3.5 assts, 2-time MVP, 14-time all-star, 2 Western Conference titles
more stats...
Danny Ainge averaged 10 pts, 5 assists in 85-86, and was not an all-star, sorry
McHale vs. Rodman: Detroit pushed Boston to 7 games in the Eastern Conference Finals in 86-87 (with Larry Legend providing the heroics in that series, not McHale); Detroit then defeated Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals the following year before losing to the Lakers; McHale and Rodman matched up again in 90-91 as the World Champion Pistons eliminated the Celts easily
now Matthew and anyone else, please provide these cherised stats you speak of that supposedly indicate how McHale "ate up" Rodman, Rodman was a perennial first team all-defense member from 88 thru 98, winning Defensive Player of the Year on a couple of occasions (and leading the NBA in rebounding during this same time, the pinnacle in 92 when he average 19 per game); and let's remember that Rodman's prime was began in the late 80s
career stats...
Kevin McHale: 18 pts, 7 rbs, 1.7 assts, 7-time all-star, 3 NBA titles
Karl Malone: 26 pts, 10.5 rbs, 3.5 assts, 2-time MVP, 14-time all-star, 2 Western Conference titles
more stats...
Danny Ainge averaged 10 pts, 5 assists in 85-86, and was not an all-star, sorry
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