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Old 07-24-2005, 08:32 PM   #61
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yeah how did she get away from those centaurs anyway? I thought for sure they'd eat her or stampede over her or something...would serve her right, that bitch.

I just can't see snape truly being on Voldy's side...if he's not on the side of the order, then I think he's sort of a free agent. he got rid of Dumbledore and that would get him closer to Voldy, in a perfect position to take him out. with the whole "Half Blood Prince" thing, it seems like he's jealous of Voldy, maybe thinks that that should be him. I dunno, crazy theory.

anyway, one thing I noticed was that all the members of the order (at least that were present) seem horrified by snape's actions and convinced they were right that he's a traitor. if snape's killing dumbledore was really in order to get closer in the death eaters circle to help the Order, right about now everyone in the Order thinks he's a murderous traitor. it wouldn't matter how much info he got, he doesn't have anyone to tell it to. unless someone or everyone in the order, does know about the "plan" after all. asuming there was a plan.

I just don't know.
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Old 07-24-2005, 08:48 PM   #62
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Jo did say there were a LOT of visual clues to the future of the series in the films, especially Azkaban, and that it freaked her out because she didn't tell Chris Columbus or Alfonso Cuaron.
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Old 07-24-2005, 08:54 PM   #63
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really? I taped Azkaban when they played it on the TV, I might have to go watch it right now.
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Old 07-24-2005, 09:38 PM   #64
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Hang on a sec. You guys who think Snape cant really be on Voldemort's side, why did Dumbledore have to die, then?

I believe Dumbledore knew it was coming, maybe not how exactly, or when or even by who, but that it was inevitable, but I cant see how he would had to have diedfor the Order. I think my memory is also not working, lol.
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Old 07-24-2005, 09:50 PM   #65
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uhmm...well I think the theory is that Dumbledore knew about the assignment Malfoy had been given (to kill him) and he also knew Malfoy couldn't do it. He knew that if Malfoy didn't do it, he and his family would be tortured and killed. Dumbledore, noble and virtuous as he is, didn't want this to happen to one of his students. So somehow Snape set up the Unbreakable Vow so that he could prove himself and spare Malfoy. So basically, Dumbledore was sacrificing himself that a family of Death Eaters may live. Makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it? me=

I dunno, I have no idea honestly.
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Old 07-24-2005, 10:43 PM   #66
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Hmm. Do you think really that Dumbledore cares/cared what happened to the Malfoys? Draco, sure is only a kid, and incapable of murder, but his parents are bad. I dont think sparing Draco the hurt of seeing his parents tortured was worth more than Dumbledore's own life, when the defeat of Voldemort is probably one of the most pressing and important things upcoming. But this is now heading into the psychology, lol. I have been dwelling on this for days now


Snape....this fascinates me. I'm trying to weigh up the pros and cons for him being on the Order's side or Voldemort's side. By him killing Dumbledore, ruining the school year, upsetting the entire good wizard population, allowing Voldemort to now get to Harry and kill HIM ie access to Harry, getting himself wrapped up in the wrath of nearly everyone and now living with that risk of being possibly the most wanted wizard at the present, incidentally now having forced Malfoy to fail in his orders to kill Dumbledore himself (Voldemort will surely know it was Snape and not Draco, right?), he's achieved what?


On the other hand...For the Order, he now has...saved Draco and probably his parents. I cant think what else?
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Old 07-25-2005, 08:23 AM   #67
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I think the whole Dumbledore dieing bit will be explained when we find out why his hand went black and couldn't be fixed. I think that Dumbledore knew at that stage he was dying. I also think that Snape told him of the unbreakable curse and that they knew that Draco wouldn't be able to follow through with killing Dumbledore, so they organised between themselves to have Snape do the deed. This way, Draco is safe for the moment, the Order is in apparent chaos and Snape is back in Voldy's good books.

There definitely is a locket in Sirius's house, which couldn't be opened.

I think that there is something about Harry's Aunt who may have witch powers (but this could be totally wrong).
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Old 07-25-2005, 08:30 AM   #68
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Hmm. Do you think really that Dumbledore cares/cared what happened to the Malfoys? Draco, sure is only a kid, and incapable of murder, but his parents are bad. I dont think sparing Draco the hurt of seeing his parents tortured was worth more than Dumbledore's own life, when the defeat of Voldemort is probably one of the most pressing and important things upcoming.
Perhaps. But I do think that saving Draco from becoming a murderer was part of the reason Dumbledore was willing to sacrifice himself. Remember, he said, when Draco pointed out that Dumbledore was at his mercy, "No, Draco, it is my mercy that matters now." To me, that means, first, that he is not going to let Draco fail in his task and be murdered and/or tortured by Voldemort. And however awful he is, Dumbledore knows Draco is not a murderer and he doesn't want him to become one. Dumbledore sees something worth saving in Draco and I think, in part, this is worth dying for for him. On a side note, it becomes clear in this book how much Draco and his mother love each other. And I think this may be what saves them in the end.

And that's a good point about what's going to happen to Malfoy now that he didn't kill Dumbledore. He did, however, succeed in getting the Death Eaters into Hogwarts. And Dumbledore did end up dead. So maybe, no harm no foul? I'm not sure what's going to happen there.

And, yes, defeating Voldemort was one of Dumbledore's primary goals. But he said himself that he is not essential to doing that. Only Harry is. I think that's why Dumbledore was in such a hurry to give Harry all the information and tools to defeat Voldemort- he knew he wasn't (or might not) be around much longer to tell him. I think Dumbledore knew about Snape's unbreakable vow and told Snape that, if it came down to it, to kill him, which could be what Hagrid overheard them fighting about early on in the book. When Snape said "I don't want to do it anymore!" he may have been saying "I know I said I'd kill you if that's what it came to, but I don't want to do it anymore." And I think, in the moment Snape gazed at Dumbledore before he killed him, Dumbledore ordered Snape to do it. After all, they were both very skilled Legilimens, so I'd find it hard to believe that they gazed at each other at this crucial moment, and nothing passed between them. This would also explain the look of revulsion on Snape's face. He didn't hate Dumbledore; he hated what he had to do.

And what absolutely convinces me that Snape is not evil is his reaction when Harry called him a coward. He's described not as merely angry or furious; he's in pain, as much pain as Fang, howling and trapped in Hagrid's burning hut. Now, I can see him being angry at being insulted by Harry if he (Snape) really was evil. But pain? I can't see that unless he felt incredible remorse and grief over what he'd done. He just had to kill the only person who truly trusted him, the man who gave him a second chance when no one else would have. And now everyone thinks he's evil, and he has no way of showing his grief. And then to be called a coward, by Potter of all people, when what he did in fact took supreme courage? I think all the anguish and frustration and grief came spilling out for a moment.

Of course, this is just a lot of speculation.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:01 AM   #69
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What a great book!!
Nice thoughs Hallelujah! Lots to think about, but my quick thought is that Harry is never going to forgive Snape, you know how he holds grudges and is extremely loyal to his friends and family- even if Snape was ordered by Dumbledore to kill him. But maybe in book 7 Harry will have matured even more and understood forgiveness.

I actually don't think Harry will be going to Hogwart's for his final year. And I'm intrested to see what kind of protection Harry can get at his muggle home- why was it so important for Dumbledore to pick him up there and reiterate to his aunt & uncle that Harry can stay there (indeed, must) until he came of age.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:46 AM   #70
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But I do think that saving Draco from becoming a murderer was part of the reason Dumbledore was willing to sacrifice himself. ...And however awful he is, Dumbledore knows Draco is not a murderer and he doesn't want him to become one. Dumbledore sees something worth saving in Draco and I think, in part, this is worth dying for for him.
Very interesting theory. I think Draco can be redeemed, too. Remember also that he was confiding in and being comforted by Moaning Myrtle, the ghost of one of the "Mudbloods" Draco has always despised. I think he's starting to see the error of his ways. It'll be a slow and painful process, but I think he'll turn around in the end.

I think it would be wise for Harry to return to Hogwarts. At the very least, perhaps he can find Dumbledore's notes, or his portrait can continue teaching him, informing him where the remaining Horcruxes are. I should also think Dumbledore told McGonagall a few things before he died; he wouldn't want to leave her out to dry when she took over the school. And Harry really should confide in McGonagall; she is a wise and sensible person, and a rather powerful witch herself.

In case anyone is interested, I recommend this website: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/ It's a good way to keep track of everything in the Harry Potter world.
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Old 07-25-2005, 12:26 PM   #71
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I think it would be wise for Harry to return to Hogwarts. At the very least, perhaps he can find Dumbledore's notes, or his portrait can continue teaching him, informing him where the remaining Horcruxes are. I should also think Dumbledore told McGonagall a few things before he died; he wouldn't want to leave her out to dry when she took over the school. And Harry really should confide in McGonagall; she is a wise and sensible person, and a rather powerful witch herself.
I think Harry will go back to Hogwarts at some point in the next book. But I'm really curious to see how exactly the whole portrait thing will work. It seems like other portraits of former headmasters have all the personalities and knowledge of the actual headmasters themselves. I don't see why it would be different for Dumbledore, I guess, other than it would seem like cheating for the portrait just to be able to tell Harry everything the real Dumbledore would. I mean, it just seems like it would be so anticlimactic if at the beginning of the next book, Dumbledore is just like "Dudes. Listen. I told Snape to kill me! And here's where I think the other Horcruxes are..." If he could do that, it seems like it was pointless to kill him off. And I do wonder why, if Harry saw the portrait, he himself didn't wonder whether the portrait Dumbledore would be able to help him.
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:03 PM   #72
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But I'm really curious to see how exactly the whole portrait thing will work. It seems like other portraits of former headmasters have all the personalities and knowledge of the actual headmasters themselves. I don't see why it would be different for Dumbledore, I guess, other than it would seem like cheating for the portrait just to be able to tell Harry everything the real Dumbledore would. I mean, it just seems like it would be so anticlimactic if at the beginning of the next book, Dumbledore is just like "Dudes. Listen. I told Snape to kill me! And here's where I think the other Horcruxes are..." If he could do that, it seems like it was pointless to kill him off. And I do wonder why, if Harry saw the portrait, he himself didn't wonder whether the portrait Dumbledore would be able to help him.
I was thinking of that as well, perhaps in the new book she will give us an explanation of how portraits work and what they can and cannot do. Most likely they can't know everything their, em, person knew, or that would make for a very very large plot hole.
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Old 07-25-2005, 02:39 PM   #73
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I don't see why it would be different for Dumbledore, I guess, other than it would seem like cheating for the portrait just to be able to tell Harry everything the real Dumbledore would. I mean, it just seems like it would be so anticlimactic if at the beginning of the next book, Dumbledore is just like "Dudes. Listen. I told Snape to kill me! And here's where I think the other Horcruxes are..." If he could do that, it seems like it was pointless to kill him off. And I do wonder why, if Harry saw the portrait, he himself didn't wonder whether the portrait Dumbledore would be able to help him.
That's a good point. I'm not sure how the portraits work, either. Is there some essence of the subject's personality and wisdom imbued in the paint? Or is it more like a recording?

Yes, it would be anticlimatic for the portrait to know everything Dumbledore knew. IIRC, the real Dumbledore didn't know where the rest of the Horcruxes were anyway. But the portrait could still guide and advise Harry, and I think McGonagall would be a good advisor to Harry as well, if he would confide in her.

And speaking of McGonagall, who's going to be the new Head of Gryffindor House?
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Old 07-27-2005, 10:09 PM   #74
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F###&&K!!!

I've just finished the fourth book and was SO determined to stay away from the spoilers... and then some complete asshole on IMDB.com movie boards goes and posts under the name "snapekillsdumbledore". Arghhhhhhh! I'm really upset now; always liked Snape despite him being a bastard.
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Old 07-28-2005, 03:08 AM   #75
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aw that really sucks, saracene
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Old 07-28-2005, 03:33 AM   #76
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Lupin and Tonks are so lovely
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Old 07-28-2005, 05:31 AM   #77
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Aren't they!!
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Old 07-28-2005, 07:38 AM   #78
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F###&&K!!!

I've just finished the fourth book and was SO determined to stay away from the spoilers... and then some complete asshole on IMDB.com movie boards goes and posts under the name "snapekillsdumbledore". Arghhhhhhh! I'm really upset now; always liked Snape despite him being a bastard.
I hate those assholes. That is why I made it very clear that this thread had spoilers.

I am very sorry. Keep reading though, you will still enjoy Book 5 and 6.
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:06 PM   #79
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I dont know that Dumbledore DID completely trust Snape in that, Dumbledore is the wisest and most clever of certainly the 2 of them, and arguably in the entire wizarding world - yet, Dumbledore appointed him the job of Defence Against the Dark Arts knowing full well that no teacher has ever lasted in that role for more than a year since Riddle left, and along with that, also took his first real opportunity to learn Harry on the history of Riddle/Voldemort and educate him in order to help Harry eventually beat him. I wonder if in some yet undisclosed way, Dumbledore (knowing that he was bloody old and it would soon enough be the end regardless) knew that the year's end would see most likely Dumbledore's own end/retirement/incapacitation, Snape's coming to a crossroads (in choosing alliance fully with the Order, or fully with Voldemort), Harry coming of age and finally taking on the job of the Chosen One and thus taking Voldemort out or begining the process fully...

A lot of things dont add up. I know there are holes in my latest theory, but there seems to be holes in nearly everything. Some glaring. Slytherin produces more Dark wizards than any of the other houses. Snape is tied to this house in more than just the role of Head of House.

I think Malfoy will take on interesting developments as the next book progresses. His bidding to a Dark Lord who has absolutely no interest in saving his father will come to a head, as Malfoy has already shown he lacks the gumption needed to be one of Voldemort's true right hands'. His mother is also causing him to get torn between loyalties.

Your point about DD (for DumbleDore) assiging Snape the Defense Against the Dark Arts (DADA) job is a good one. Everyone knew that no one has held that position for more than a year. So after all these years, why give it to Snape now? What made this year special?

Also interesting was that because of Snape's transfer to that position, Harry was now able to take all the classes necessary to become an Auror. Hmmm.... How convenient!

Clearly there was quite a bit of planning going on here. The argument Snape had with DD (that Hagrid overheard) suggests that DD and Snape had made their own version of the "Unbreakable Vow". Now, as that "vow" is dark in nature, DD would never have made one with Snape. DD was all about doing good - never once using the Unforgivable Curses against people (otherwise, he probably would've been able to kill Voldemort years ago). But DD clearly trusted Snape -and this trust made have meant DD was "pleading" with Snape to kill him - per their pre-arranged agreement (hence the argument) - when the time came. As you pointed out, DD was asking for Snape after drinking the potion, not anyone else. DD may have known the time was at hand for Snape to complete his promise to DD.

If you recall, to do any Unforgivable Curse, one really has to mean it. Hence, Snape *had* to have this look of other hatred in order to even attempt to perform the Avada Kedavra. But there is quite a bit of confusion here. After Snape said the curse, DD flew up in the air and over a railing (if I recall). When Voldemort did that same curse in Book 4 on poor Cedric, Cedric just keels over dead - no launching into the air. So why did DD fly up in the air? Also recall that DD has a HUGE connection with Pheonixes - and indeed, Harry saw what appeared to be a Pheonix leave DD's casket/grave/body. Lastly, the fact that Snape prevented anyone from attacking Harry, refused to take Harry with him (if Snape was truly serving Voldemort, why not just scoop up Harry and bring him to Voldemort?) and even "taught" Harry a final lesson (about using unspoken spells so that Harry won't be blocked) strongly suggests that, again, there was a pre-arranged agreement between DD and Snape. Snape had to "kill" DD in order to stay close to Voldemort, but this was part of the plan. All of this also suggests that we probably haven't seen the last of DD.

Finally, I feel DD didn't want poor Draco to be a "killer". DD even told Draco that he could be "protected" if Draco would just come behind DD (before Snape's attack). Hmmm... was Snape's attack on DD just a masquerade? Did the potion that DD drank actually protect him from Snape's curse - even though right not it appears otherwise? If Draco had stepped behind DD, would DD have created the illusion that Draco and DD were both killed? Perhaps DD was "pleading" with Snape to ensure that Snape not only fulfills his agreement with DD, but also prevents Draco from becoming a "killer".

As many have written, DD's death seems most ignoble and abrupt - especially for what is supposedly the most powerful wizard of the era. Why would DD have his last spell be an unspoken one to freeze Harry? What was the point in that? And even after Draco blasted DD's wand away, surely such a powerful wizard as DD could have scooped it right back up with an unspoken spell. Clearly DD wanted Harry "safe" and "out of the way" and wanted Snape to go through this whole apparent "charade" of killing him.

Rowling stated Draco and Harry will have to work together in Book 7, which makes sense. It appears that Voldemort cared little about Lucius (for his perceived bumbling) and Draco (Voldemort fully expected Draco to die in his attempt to kill DD). So Draco has no reason to be loyal to Voldemort. In fact, I'm sure Voldemort will be quite unhappy with Draco for not killing DD, even though DD is apparently dead. So all the more reason for Draco to fear for his life and side up with Harry in defeating Voldemort.

Lastly, I liked the idea someone mentioned about Neville even killing off Voldemort. Just because Voldemort *chose* Harry as his apparent equal and nemesis, doesn't mean he chose correctly. Maybe Neville is really the "chosen one" who will ultimately cast the final spell that kills Voldemort. Additionally, it appears that Aunt Petunia, who so loathes magic, may not be quite as innocent as she seems. It's already been revealed that she had a pact with DD. Perhaps she's a squibb? Or perhaps she does have some magical ability herself, but refused to accept it?

Book 7 should be quite interesting!
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Old 07-29-2005, 10:58 AM   #80
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Some of my lesser observations:

Glad to see Harry got the chip off his shoulder that he had in OotP. Granted, it's no fun being left out of the loop, and it had disastrous consequences in Book 5. Now that he's learning what is going on, he's also calmed down a great deal.

I like Professor Slughorn. It's nice to see a Slytherin who isn't "evil". Yes, he likes his creature comforts and playing politics, not to mention he's a bit cowardly and has a bit of hubris, but he seems to accept Muggle-borns and halfbloods as equal to purebloods, and he certainly isn't the bullying teacher that Snape was. Perhaps if he'd been the potions master all this time, Neville might've had a better chance at mastering Potions?

Did anyone else find it incredibly ironic (if not downright funny) that Lord "Pure-Bloods Are Best" Voldemort comes from horribly inbred stock?! What good is being "pure-blooded" if your family looks and acts like a bunch of extras from the X-Files episode Home?!
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