For dog lovers Pt. 2

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Oh Samson loves to tug! It's one of his favourite games. Thankfully he's also trained to let go when we want him to, but he'll often pick up his tug toy and bring it to us because he wants somebody to play with it.
 
Today Kenya pooped diarrhea all over our bed!! hahaha, nasty!!! I think it's b/c last night I was using bits of canned sardine to get everyone to hold still while I applied Frontline and Kenya was sneaky, got 4 sardines. They're kinda oily/greasy. Wow, the things we do for our dogs! Luckily, I used to be a nanny, so it if you can believe it, it takes a lot more than some dog deuce on my bed to actually gross me out.
 
Before he went blind, Falstaff loved tug-of-war...it took a long time to train him to let go on command, though. I made the mistake of playing it with him all the time as a puppy, before his obedience training was finished and he really accepted that I was in charge, so it was tough to break him of the lunging-and-biting-hard habit--it seemed like that game always got him excited like nothing else. (Didn't seem like such a problem until his adult teeth grew in...then it hurt!) Next time around I think I'd wait until later in the training stage to introduce tug games, especially if the puppy had the same kind of dominant/strong-willed tendencies Falstaff does.
 
Coke doesn't know the rules either, and now he's bigger than Kenya, weighs more too! It's hard to teach a "release" b/c your instinct is to just pull back harder, but that's what he wants! What I'm doing right now is making sure *I* am the one that starts and ends all games. He has to sit and wait and I will put the tug in his mouth. When I am done, I say "game over!", let go, turn around, and ignore him. Some people think that's letting the dog win, but I think it's controlling the game. The dog doesn't play to win or lose, he plays to play, and if *I* end the game, I control the game. He gets a dejected look on his face, drops the toy, and walks off. I've found a pressure point on his neck that gets him to release, so I may use that and then immediately reward as soon as he releases.

GSD puppies play tug really early b/c tugs are used to determine various types of drive and courage for SchH. You can tell at 8 weeks whether or not the pup will cut it. I didn't believe it until I saw someone demonstrate with an 8 week old pup. It was amazing!

PS. Liesje logged in as Phil.
 
:hmm: Pressure points, now that sounds like a useful trick to know. I'm not sure the "game over" approach would've worked with Falstaff because he didn't just want to play tug with the toy, he also liked "killing" it afterwards (if I let him keep it) by shaking and throwing it. That was always how he played with all his toys; he never laid down and just chewed on them like your dogs seem to be doing in the pictures--he'd charge around shaking and throwing them so he could "attack" them over again. Throw, charge, attack, repeat...over and over until he was winded. I tend to assume that if I got another dog with bully ancestry (like that AmBull for example :wink: ) it'd probably have the same instincts, but I don't really know.

If I could do it all over again (and had more money) I'd love to have had two pugs...I think that would've made taking the edge off his energies when he was young a lot easier. He never played well with other small-breed dogs because he was too rough for them, and he never played well with big dogs because they saw him as an obnoxious squirt who acts too big for his britches. But the one place we lived where he had a pug buddy nearby, that was great, because the two of them could hurtle around bodyslamming and tackling each other until they were both dizzy without anyone getting nippy or upset.

That's interesting about using tug games as Schutzhund success predictors with GSD puppies...I suppose with lots of breeds there must be various games they use like that, to get an early idea which pups seem cut out for breed-appropriate sports and which ones probably aren't.
 
A good pressure point is the joint where the upper and lower jaws meet. You can actually try it on yourself and you'll notice that it works. That's how we trained King, who was much, much more reluctant to actually let go of anything he was holding.
 
yolland said:

That's interesting about using tug games as Schutzhund success predictors with GSD puppies...I suppose with lots of breeds there must be various games they use like that, to get an early idea which pups seem cut out for breed-appropriate sports and which ones probably aren't.

Yep. Most non-dog people have the totally wrong impression of SchH. It is NOT training "attack", "police" or "protection" dogs, it is a sport designed to test specifically the breed German Shepherd. There is the "protection" part of the test (which GSD people do NOT consider to be actual "personal protection dog" training), but there is also obedience and tracking. There are pieces of each test that are designed to test temperament and courage (guns firing, have to move through a crowd at heel, running 12 miles while the handler bikes, clearing jumps and A-frames, etc). The bitework part of SchH is not dog aggression, it is the German Shepherd's working drive. They are taught as puppies that the bite sleeve is the same thing as a tug toy, it's a fun game to them. You jump and bite the sleeve, tug on it a bit without getting scared by the "helper" (the person wearing the sleeve) and you get to pull the sleeve off and run around with it. They like parading around with that sleeve in their mouth. Tug is also used as a reward in training. When young dogs are learning their formal heel, they get rewarded with tug games every 20 steps or so, to keep them motivated.

This is a great video of how the younger dogs are trained and how games are used as a reward (his heeling is often out of place, but you get the idea):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIxfHRTvxaE

This is an 8 week old imported Dutch Shepherd that a SchH club was using to demonstrate the drive in a puppy. This pup latched onto that toy and didn't let go even when the handler was danging the dog in the air from the toy. She even held on as he pretended to confront her (yelled in her face and pretended to hit with a stick).

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Kenya is 4 years old and she knows how to use her teeth, but if a large man came at her with a beat stick, she'd drop that toy and run so fast! She does not have the correct nerves for SchH which is a shame. Her sire was a high scoring SchH dog at the highest level.

A few ways to tell the difference between a SchH dog and a true PPD or police dog is the SchH dog always goes for the bite sleeve (or where it would be) and the true PPD knows to go after whichever arm is holding the weapon. The SchH dog knows a bark-and-hold (sit in front of the helper and bark at it to "hold" it in place, rather than biting) which a PPD also knows, but the PPD knows how to knock down and hold down a suspect with his paws. The SchH dog only knows bark-and-hold or bite the sleeve arm. There's a lot a true PPD can do without even using his teeth.
 
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Liesje said:
Share? not quite. They each try to take all the toys before the other gets one. Luckily, we have 5 toys and 2 dogs so it usually works out. They both really like the tomato though!

Only 5 toys? My little girl has a plastic milk crate full of toys.

I know ... she's spoiled. :eek:
 
Here's the pic of the puppy hanging from the toy. He actually held it up and let the pup hang on while he talked.

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Lol. I don't spend much on toys, but Kenya has done 4 training classes since August and I've already signed up for two more, plus one for Coke starting in two weeks (which Kenya will also be attending but isn't officially registered for). Between training, gas prices, and entering shows it's like paying for college all over again! I spent a boatload on equipment b/c there's certain leads and types of collars I prefer, plus Kenya's agility stuff in the yard.... If they want a toy they can chew on a damn sock! :wink:
 
Cute!! I can't help with names since I only know German ones, lol.

Martina, Samson is gorgeous!!! A friend from work adopted that rambunctious German Shepherd we were considering, and she named him Samson.

We've decided that Coke is a collie x retriever with some Chow. His face is pretty Collie, but the shape of his head, his topline, and his coat are more retriever (Golden or flatcoat, likely Golden). Black spotting on the tongue is just a birthmark and not indicative of breed, but my understanding is that an entirely black/purple tongue is unique to Chow Chows, and he has a purple tongue (so do his brothers).

Coke in the snow
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Kenya showing off her reflective vest, also used as an anxiety wrap (she wears it to therapy group)
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Hehe, I think this is a funny pic of Coke
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Coke's eyes/eyebrows/forehead are definitely Collie. It's quite a distinctive look. And you're right about the tongue too. How is his fur? Soft like a Collie's or more rough like a German Shepherd's?

Samson really doesn't have an accumulation of toys as he seems not to care for them much. He has a couple of tennis balls he likes to play catch with, and an abundance of rawhide bones which he loves to tear apart. Unlike King, who loved Kong and related toys, Samson never really cared much for them.
 
I've not felt a Collie before, but it is not rough like Kenya's. GSDs have a pretty distinct coat texture, especially with the two layers. There are "coated" GSDs (long stock coat or long coat) and some of those would feel more like Coke than Kenya, but a coated GSD is a fault and not desirable. I usually prefer rougher, shorter coated dogs so I don't really know what to compare Coke to. It's also hard to tell because he's solid colors, whereas with a GSD the guard hairs and undercoat are distinct colors and textures. When I brush Kenya, I get a fuzzy ball of shorter, softer white hair even though she is sable so her top coat is predominantly black and black ticked. When I brush Coke, I get a fuzzy ball of black hair, lol. I know flat coated retrievers, rough collies, and chow chows all have a longer, plushier coat, but I don't know how to distinguish them by look and feel.
 
It's been a while since I've touched one of either, but from what I recall, while both collies and goldens have pretty soft fur, a collie's coat has a considerably more loose-packed, 'tufty' feel. Coke's coat looks kinda in-between to me, but of course you can never really tell from a photo. I'm not sure that I've ever touched a chow, though. For sure I agree with anitram that he looks unmistakably collie-like through the eyes and lower forehead. His head does seem to have a retriever-ish quality in profile though, despite the long nose, and his ears just don't look like a collie's to me. The only thing is, both retrievers and chows are always solid-colored, right? and I don't think I've ever seen a collie with coat patterning like that...? but, maybe the expression of patterning genes can be altered even when the cross involves only genes for solid color. Perhaps as he gets older, his body shape and proportions will provide clearer clues.

That gingery color in his coat is gorgeous.
 
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His entire topline, including his head in profile, are what lead me to say part retriever of some kind. If I were to blur out all of his fur and coloring, he is a cookie-cutter field-bred retriever, moreso Golden than flatcoat. He is almost a twin of my friend's Golden, who is also tall, thin, and leggy like Coke (I attribute this to poor breeding and very early neutering). My guess is that his coat is more dense and not as long as a Collie, so maybe Chow Chow is coming into play there. His mother looks like a Collie/Golden mix or maybe an Aussie/Golden mix. I agree, his earset is not at all Collie.

I don't know much about genetics and coat patterning in general. There are many breeds that have the same black and tan pattern he has. German Shepherds have it and we call it "blanket black" (the dog is mostly black except for the tan areas, same markings as a rottie or dobe). I'm hesitant to say "rottie" or "dobe" just based on the black and tan. He doesn't really have any characteristics of those breeds. His pattern is found in German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, English Shepherds, Hovawarts, Gordon Setters, Coonhounds, etc, etc. Coke actually looks pretty much like a purebred Hovawart and if that were an AKC breed, I would ILP him as a Hovawart.

Labrador Retrievers can be black and tan and even brindle, but they are DQs in the ring.
 
Collies basically have a super soft, feathery undercoat (which sheds twice a year and comes out in clumps), and then the overcoat which is long and a bit more coarse, but still quite soft.

Coke's chest kind of reminds me of rotweiller colouring, actually. When I was a child we lived next door to a couple who had a Rottie, his name was Zeus and that's who I thought of immediately when I saw Coke's front. The ears too, actually, but not the rest of his body (he's too lean).
 
^ Yeah, I remember what those "clumps" are like...they can really fill your vacuum cleaner up fast! That's not all bad though, since it makes pickup easier when the hairs stick together.
Liesje said:
I don't know much about genetics and coat patterning in general. There are many breeds that have the same black and tan pattern he has. German Shepherds have it and we call it "blanket black" (the dog is mostly black except for the tan areas, same markings as a rottie or dobe). I'm hesitant to say "rottie" or "dobe" just based on the black and tan. He doesn't really have any characteristics of those breeds. His pattern is found in German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, English Shepherds, Hovawarts, Gordon Setters, Coonhounds, etc, etc. Coke actually looks pretty much like a purebred Hovawart and if that were an AKC breed, I would ILP him as a Hovawart.

Labrador Retrievers can be black and tan and even brindle, but they are DQs in the ring.
I glanced at a few articles online about retriever, collie and chow coat color genetics. Apparently the reason why retrievers occasionally whelp a black-and-tan puppy is because early in those breeds' development, it was fairly common for breeders to cross them with Gordons from time to time. So, some retriever lines still carry the recessive form of the 'agouti' gene which codes for that particular pattern, and if a puppy gets one of those from each parent PLUS at least one copy of another gene (dominant, but rare in retrievers) which enables pigment cells to 'recognize' that double recessive, it will turn out black-and-tan. That exact same combo creates the black-and-tan patterning typical of the other breeds you mentioned--as well as the patterning of tricolor collies (and many Aussies), who only look different because collies also carry a recessive form of the 'white spotting' gene, which breaks up their other colorings with the classic collie 'mane' and 'boots.' As for chow chows, apparently they never carry the black-and-tan gene, and in fact they're thought to only carry dominant forms of 'agouti,' period. So...assuming Coke's sire wasn't a purebred chow, which hardly looks likely from the photos, I guess it's not so mysterious after all that a retriever/collie/chow mix could come out black-and-tan!
 
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Is anyone else secretly obsessed with Leonbergers? I love them!! It doesn't help that there is one in the pet therapy class that meets after mine (and this past week we all met together so I sat next to them).

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I'll just add them to the list of breeds I love but will likely never own...

* Akita
* Basenji
* Saarloos Wolfhund
* Leonberger

(It's likely I will never own anything but German Shepherds, Dutch Shepherds, Beaucerons, and Malinois).
 
Liesje said:
Is anyone else secretly obsessed with Leonbergers? I love them!! It doesn't help that there is one in the pet therapy class that meets after mine (and this past week we all met together so I sat next to them).

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I'll just add them to the list of breeds I love but will likely never own...

* Akita
* Basenji
* Saarloos Wolfhund
* Leonberger

(It's likely I will never own anything but German Shepherds, Dutch Shepherds, Beaucerons, and Malinois).

One of my old roommates has a Leonberger named Goulash. He actually waited over a year to get him from Sweden (Goulash even has a tattoo on his inner ear certifying that he's from Sweden). Great dog, really nice coat - smooth and soft, but lots of shedding (he got brushed every day and every day there were at least 4 big fistfulls of fur left over), very mellow temperament, very smart but not very athletic, and just too big for my tastes. When a dog can stick its nose up on the kitchen counter without getting on it's hind legs, its a bit too big for me. ;)

Unfortunately Goulash is waaay overprotected and has never really been socialized with other dogs. I don't know if it's a result of that and/or a lack of more physical exercise beyond walks, but for his size Goulash seemed awfully fragile and clumsy, too. Unlike my sister's Boerboel, who is just a powerhouse but surprisingly agile on his feet.
 
OMG, Mia, he is SOOOOO cute! (and you too!). See I can never get an Aussie now because I will always be comparing them to Bailey and I've never seen one so cute! I really mean that.

Adam, they're a bit big for me as well. Maybe if I lived on a farm or acerage....I have enough trouble just keeping Kenya and Coke out of my personal space! There's an 8 month old Leonberger in my pet therapy class. He's like 200lbs of puppy. Kenya actually snapped at him last week. She was laying down next to him and he started pawing at her face, just to play, but she's literally 1/4 his size and I guess to her it was a little threatening. She gave him a few warnings, which as a puppy he did not heed, and she gave him an air snap.

Our dogs are digging the new snow fall!

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Now open this door so I can kill a rabbit!
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A moment of peace....
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... half a second later
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Lemme in!
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Apparently Kenya has her own agenda...I didn't know we were this serious about training
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Liesje said:
OMG, Mia, he is SOOOOO cute! (and you too!). See I can never get an Aussie now because I will always be comparing them to Bailey and I've never seen one so cute! I really mean that.

Thanks Lies!! I think he knows it. That smile of his gets him a lot of attention. I haven't seen another aussie quite like him either. I did see a red merle dachsund once. That blew my mind.
 
Those are some awesome action shots, Lies!

Samson being rudely awoken from his nap:

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He's giving me a dirty look:

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