Canucks?!?!

[DaveC]

alright, regardless of whether he tackled him, he also continued at it after they had already hit the ice. the intent was to injure, and he did just that, plain and simple.

and has been stated, the naslund incident was a result of a collison that occured as part of the play, and partly because naslund had his head down.

i also find this to be worse than the mcsorley-brashear incident, based on these grounds: that was something that was not planned before the game, or even right up until it happened, it was a spur of the moment deal. i am not defending marty, but is was not really premeditated. however, the canucks had already gone public in stating this as there goal, and as tony granato pointed out, someone on the canucks side of the ice called for this. a viscious premeditated attack is what this was.

"I hardly call this life-threatening." so if a fractured neck is not considered life threatening, i would like to know what you would consider as life threatening.

as far as the punnishment for bertuzzi, i agree with wilbon on pti, suspend him for two years at least. a statement needs to be made that this is NOT what hockey is about.

What I consider life-threatening is not relevant here. For the record, I don't think a slight fracture with no damage to the spinal cord life-threatening. That is similar to a broken arm. Were the spinal cord damaged, yes that would be a big problem.

And as for a 2-year suspension...that's not remotely close to necessary. Players all know that what Todd Bertuzzi did was wrong and should never be repeated.

Chances are they won't be playing for a year or two anyways. There will almost certainly not be a season next year...

Make no mistake; I'm not defending what Bertuzzi did. However I think any suspension over the remainder of the season is excessive and unnecessary.

Well, you do it to everyone in this forum whenever you post. What was it you said to me--don't give it if you can't take it? I believe the same applies.

I apologize if I caused offense, but let your knowledge, and not your resume speak for itself. We have alot of knowledgeable hockey fans here--Cujo, Griffiths, Zoney, Edgeman, Angel--and they never manage to offend anyone. There's a reason for that.

Yes, and I was wrong for making a generalization and I apologized. I, however, did not insult your intelligence or your lifestyle/hobbies. What you said to me is tantamount to saying to an artist who's passion is painting, something they have done all their lives fervently, and telling them they know nothing of art.

I can take generalizations and stereotypes. What I do NOT tolerate is personal attacks, and I never meant to hurt anyone, and I apologised for my error. You however (who claim that you are not taking this personally), decided to attack my character, which was uncalled for.

And as to letting my "knowledge, not my resume" speak for itself, I believe my "resume" gives me said knowledge and is therefore relevant. The fact that I've been playing and refereeing does not automatically mean I am out to offend, as you suggest. That is never my purpose.

But I will fight back if provoked, as I'm sure every single person you named would as well.

 

[DaveC]

I'm not saying they're wrong, but this information has not appeared anywhere else. *Anywhere* else.

Of course. I was just hearing things and am an ignorant fool who knows nothing about hockey, as you have said previously. Right.

How foolish of me.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Written February 20th in the Rocky Mountain News.

"Naslund's call for restraint is in sharp contrast to teammate Brad May's assertion that a "bounty" has been placed on the rookie's head. Todd Bertuzzi, who is Naslund's linemate, said of Moore: "No way that punk will be in their lineup in March.""

Straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

An indefinite suspension is definitely the right call. A player who does not think of his whole team doesn't deserve to be in the playoffs. And if his team suffers as a result, maybe they will all learn to score goals when behind, not throw off the gloves.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Of course. I was just hearing things and am an ignorant fool who knows nothing about hockey, as you have said previously. Right.

How foolish of me.

I apologized. Actually, I realized I had been too personal and went back and edited the post, but too late.

So, drop it now. Please. I won't apologize twice.

I also didn't say you were wrong--or that your hockey experts were wrong. I believe I said "they might be right." I just stated--and quite accurately as of right now--that the information has not appeared anywhere else in the press. Rumor can be passed off as fact even by the most knowledgeable and I found it odd that the local Colorado press did not have the same information, since they are obsessing over the story.

I also know it takes several days, if not weeks, to evaluate injuries of that caliber and that they don't know anything more is very likely. I also know the NHL is tight-lipped when it comes to injuries. There is also the factor of his privacy and just plain sensitivity when it comes to him and his family.

That's all I'm saying. I don't believe I said anything else and I don't believe I dragged you into it at all.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Actually, this is a good article. I should post the whole thing. It's kind of interesting in retrospect--especially the way Naslund distanced himself from the whole thing.

Please, let's not bury it in alot of pointless blame-throwing.


Retaliation for a player, when the player pleaded otherwise. This says alot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadowski: Naslund's take: Give peace a chance
February 20, 2004

Finally, a voice of reason has been raised in Vancouver, where Colorado Avalanche forward Steve Moore is being labeled Public Enemy No. 1 for his hit on Canucks All-Star left wing Markus Naslund in Monday's game at the Pepsi Center.

Moore is no thug, and while some members of the Vancouver media continue to paint him as a villain whose hit was either "vicious," "ruthless" or "reckless" (or maybe all three), Nas- lund is staying above the fray even though he will be sidelined for at least a week because of a concussion.

After returning to Vancouver and seeing replays, Naslund told reporters he didn't think the play was dirty and he would prefer that his teammates concentrate on trying to beat the Avalanche when the clubs meet next month rather than attempt to beat up Moore.

Naslund's call for restraint is in sharp contrast to teammate Brad May's assertion that a "bounty" has been placed on the rookie's head. Todd Bertuzzi, who is Naslund's linemate, said of Moore: "No way that punk will be in their lineup in March."

Naslund appreciates the support, but he isn't seeking retribution.

"I know how guys want to protect myself and other players like me, which is nice," said Naslund, who was leading the NHL in scoring with 68 points in 59 games when he was injured. "It's nice to know that you have the team behind you 100 percent, but there are more important things than to go after a guy like that. He's not going to make an impact, usually, on the outcome of the game. It's more important to try and win the game and get the points. Winning the game is, in my mind, the best way to get back at him.

"I really don't know what's going to happen when we play Colorado again. We'll see. I'm sure guys are going to talk to him. I don't know if he's a guy who stands up for himself or fights or what. If I have my say and I'm not playing, I'm going to encourage the guys to try to win one for me. If I am playing, I'd like to win one for myself."

Naslund was reaching for the puck at center ice when Moore, while skating at full speed, blasted him with his left shoulder and arm. Naslund sustained the concussion and a 13-stitch gash on his forehead when he fell and his head hit the ice.

Canucks coach Marc Crawford, understandably angry to see his best player dazed and bleeding, went into a rage because Moore wasn't assessed a penalty. Crawford and Canucks general manager Brian Burke later criticized Moore and said the league should do a better job of protecting its star players.

(Neither Crawford nor Burke mentioned the cheap shots delivered by Canucks forwards Matt Cooke and Jarkko Ruutu during the game.)

NHL officials in New York reviewed the play and deemed it legal. Naslund eventually did, too, but he said Moore took advantage of the fact he was in a vulnerable position.

"You need to finish your hits, but there is no reason to go after the head," Naslund said. "I don't think there's a reason to attempt to injure players. You look at the veteran players who have been around . . . they feel a lot of young guys coming in have lost a little bit of respect for the game. Guys are bigger and stronger, and it's a physical game. It's important to have that respect. Hit for cause, but don't go out and try and hurt guys."

With Naslund injured, Daniel and Henrik Sedin have been promoted to the Canucks' top line to skate with Bertuzzi. Center Brendan Morrison has been moved to a unit with Cooke and Tyler Bouck.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

"I don't think there's a reason to attempt to injure players. You look at the veteran players who have been around . . . they feel a lot of young guys coming in have lost a little bit of respect for the game. Guys are bigger and stronger, and it's a physical game. It's important to have that respect. Hit for cause, but don't go out and try and hurt guys."

hmmm, that seems to be exactly what a lot of people here have been saying, and the exact opposite of what bertuzzi did.

 

[fah]

My two cents worth...

I hope that Steve Moore makes a full recovery and is able to return to hockey.

There is way too much violence in professional hockey. The NHL has to make a stand if they want to eradicate violence from this game. While this horrific incident happened in Vancouver, it could have happened anywhere professional hockey is played.

There is no excuse for what Todd Bertuzzi did, even my 8 year old daughter knows that.

This has been a sad day for hockey fans.

 

[zoney!]

My two cents worth...

I hope that Steve Moore makes a full recovery and is able to return to hockey.

There is way too much violence in professional hockey. The NHL has to make a stand if they want to eradicate violence from this game. While this horrific incident happened in Vancouver, it could have happened anywhere professional hockey is played.

There is no excuse for what Todd Bertuzzi did, even my 8 year old daughter knows that.

This has been a sad day for hockey fans.

In summation....my views are above.

This is taking thing WAY too far. I have played ice hockey, as well as football, baseball, basketball, soccer, broomball and lacrosse (where I have played/coached for longer than DaveC has been alive) - and the concept of "an eye for an eye" exsists in all of these very physical sports. As a player and coach, I have been a target and an aggresor. But, this should only be taken so far.

And Bertuzzi has CLEARLY crossed that line. I do not think a indefinite suspension (and yes, he will be held up as an example) isunreasonable. If this is simply "brushed aside" with a simple five-game suspension...it will set a horrible precident for the whole sport. And this is NOT the direction hockey wants to move in.

 

[Lemon Meringue]

What Bertuzzi did was cheap and wrong. We can argue all we want, but the NHL will be the ones to decide his fate. They have to look at what they have done in similar situations and how thier decision will be perceived by the players, fans and the general public. Back in '98 Matt Johnson played for the Kings and he hit a Rangers Player (I can't remember his name, but it started with a B) from behind and gave him a concussion. The player came back later in the season and suffered 2 more concussions which ended his hockey career. Johnson was suspended for 12 games and still is playing today. I doubt the NHL will be much tougher on Bertuzzi. They can't suddenly suspend a player for 2 years when they haven't done it in the past. I think he'll be back next year, but will probably miss the rest of this season and the play-offs.

Edit to add that the hearing is now underway:

Link

 

[Angel]

They can't suddenly suspend a player for 2 years when they haven't done it in the past.

Agreed. Anyway, we will find out tomorrow at 9am. My guess is ... oh hell, I haven't a guess. It's too difficult to say.

 

[unforgettableFOXfire]

And Bertuzzi has CLEARLY crossed that line. I do not think a indefinite suspension (and yes, he will be held up as an example) isunreasonable. If this is simply "brushed aside" with a simple five-game suspension...it will set a horrible precident for the whole sport. And this is NOT the direction hockey wants to move in.

I agree that it will be a horrible precedent if only a 5 game suspension is given out; but I also continue to urge (not to you, necessarily, zoney) that legal actions be left out altogether simply for the horrible precedence that sets as well.

I would be happy if they suspended him for the rest of the season and the playoffs, as they did Tie Domi when he elbowed Neidermayer, I think that would suffice as punishment - of course, going along with the excessive fines and such which are levied by the NHL along with such suspensions.

 

[AvsGirl41]

March 10, 2004
EDMONTON, Alberta (AP) -- Colorado Avalanche players were encouraged after visiting and talking with teammate Steve Moore, who remains hospitalized with a broken neck after being sucker punched by Vancouver's Todd Bertuzzi.

``He was very upbeat and seemed to be very positive,'' winger Paul Kariya said before Colorado's game against Edmonton on Wednesday night. He said he was relieved to see Moore alert and mobile.

Moore was struck from behind by Bertuzzi during Monday's game and crumpled to the ice with the 245-pound forward on top of him. He has spinal fractures, spinal ligament injuries, a closed head injury with a concussion and facial cuts and abrasions, the Avalanche said.

Moore, who will miss the rest of the season, has no memory of the time just before and after the injury, the team said.

Bertuzzi has been suspended indefinitely and NHL officials are expected to announce a more detailed punishment Thursday. Moore is expected to be transferred to a Denver hospital soon.

``He's doing well,'' Avalanche captain Joe Sakic said. ``There is nothing to the spinal cord, which is nice.''

Members of the Avalanche gathered at Vancouver General Hospital on Tuesday and broke into applause when Moore was wheeled into a room in a bulky harness intended to protect his neck.

He managed a smile for his anxious teammates and after a trainer explained the injuries said: ``Looks worse than it is, though, right?''

One by one, Sakic and the rest approached Moore and whispered words of support. According to The Denver Post and Rocky Mountain News, he assured them: ``I just have to wear this stylish brace for a while.''

Moore and his two brothers all play hockey. Older brother Mark has been out of the game for more than a year after sustaining a concussion while playing for the ECHL Wheeling Nailers.

Still, Anna and Jack Moore said nothing could prepare them for what happened to their son in Vancouver.

``I hope most of the hockey world is outraged,'' Anna Moore said. ``When you see someone who loves the game as much as he does, this type of nonsense doesn't have to come with it. That's just a black mark for hockey, when human beings behave like that in front of the public eye and where little boys worship them.''

The Moores were watching the game at their home in suburban Thornhill, Ontario. They watched as their son lay motionless in a pool of blood for several minutes before he was taken off the ice on a stretcher.

In the hospital, Avalanche coach Tony Granato told Moore he knew his family was worried about him. He said the team was his family, too.

``On behalf of the boys, we just wanted to stop and let you know how much we think of you,'' he said. ``We'll win some games while you're laid up for a while.''

The Avalanche said they will try to focus on hockey after overhauling their lineup by adding Matthew Barnaby from the New York Rangers, Chris Gratton and Ossi Vaananen from Phoenix, and Edmonton goaltender Tommy Salo.

``It's been a tough couple of days but you move on,'' defenseman Adam Foote said Wednesday. ``There has been a couple of trades -- and we got a little grittier up front -- but we've got move on and play hockey.''

Granato agreed.

``We have to stay focused,'' he said. ``There is no better healing power than to see your team go out and battle like crazy to get a win.''

 

[anitram]

I don't know if legal action needs to be taken.

But because the NHL continues to be silent on the amount of violence in the game, maybe it is time to bring in outside prosecution.

I can't believe anyone would even think that it's excessive to ban him for the rest of the season. He disgraced the game, he had no respect for his teammates by doing this so close to the playoffs, he had no consideration for the man who was clearly unconscious from the moment of the first punch, and he had no regard for the fans of the game or the kids watching. He knows it too, so there is no reason to make apologies.

He needs to be gone for the rest of the season and the playoffs minimally. It may be that he will be made an example of, and you know what, it sucks to be him. He should have thought about it before.

And before I get accused of being ignorant, I too am Canadian, and I too have a job affiliated with hockey (the OHL), and therefore have seen more games in my life than I may wish to. That's all.

 

[DaveC]

``He was very upbeat and seemed to be very positive,'' winger Paul Kariya said before Colorado's game against Edmonton on Wednesday night. He said he was relieved to see Moore alert and mobile.

...

``He's doing well,'' Avalanche captain Joe Sakic said. ``There is nothing to the spinal cord, which is nice.''

I don't want to say I told you so but...

Anyways, that doesn't matter anymore. I'm past that now, and it's pretty irrelevant anyways.

Anyways, I've sat and thunk about this (yes I know "thunk" isn't a word), and I've realized that perhaps a 5-game suspension isn't long enough after all. I'd say the remainder of the season and the playoffs, and perhaps the first 10 games of next season. Enough to really hurt him and the team.

Remember, back in 1955: Maurice Richard gets hit by a Boston Bruins defenceman, goes after him and two-hands him across the back (breaking his stick), linesman jumps on Richard and Richard smashes the official in the face (the second time that season that he deliberately hit an official), seriously injuring the linesman (people say that the Richard and Bertuzzi hits were similar). How many games did he get for all that? 15. 3 regular season games, and 12 playoff games. Bertuzzi hit a consenting (although that's a whole other debate) player and hurt him badly. There is a precedent set. A 15 game suspension (5 season games plus 10 next season, plus however many in the playoffs the Canucks play) seems like a good idea to me. As I said, a precedent has been set.

 

[fah]

But because the NHL continues to be silent on the amount of violence in the game, maybe it is time to bring in outside prosecution.

The NHL remaining silent is the biggest problem. You don't see this kind of violence in the NBA or NFL without swift and punitive action from their respective leagues.

 

[AvsGirl41]

I don't want to say I told you so but...

Anyways, that doesn't matter anymore. I'm past that now, and it's pretty irrelevant anyways.

I *never* said the information was wrong. I simply questioned why, if it was correct, it hadn't been released to more media organizations, especially given the wide concern over Moore's condition. I still believe they didn't release anything official because they still didn't have a definite diagnosis because the swelling hadn't gone down.

Since we are discussing fact versus rumor, I should point out that the article I posted had inaccuracies, as the Avalanche have since reported he didn't suffer any spinal nerve damage, as reported earlier by the AP. See, skepticism is a good thing.

I am just glad he is going to make a full recovery.

 

[Pinball Wizard]

1. I'm guessing 20-25 games. Simply because of pressure from the press, and various other groups who don't watch hockey beyond the disney vernacular. A more recent blind-siding was Domi on Niedermayer, and that cost Tie the remainder of the playoff year, as well as a few in the following season.

2. There's a difference between violence and controlled contact. Don't banner all checking and on-ice interaction as being detrimental to the game. It's optimistic to assume that removing the physical aspect of hockey would decrease events of this magnitude... in actual fact it would inevitably propagate malicious acts. Just look at the implementation of the instigator penalty (and retaliatory rules), and the increase in stickwork and targetting of players. Minor plays of the like only escalate situations, especially when they are not regulated by the referees. The injury to Moore occurred in a similar sequence of events. If the hockey community expects accountability out of its players, then it should set back the officiating mandate... not impose further restriction because of rising interest and pressure from a reactionary group with fleeting attention spans.

3. Historically the NHL has had incidents like these, even in the days of Terrible Ted and the Gordie Howe Hat trick... but changes in equipment and television exposure has decreased respect and increased awareness. Things like this will always happen, but to limit the frequency of occurence, the answer is through precedent and consistent resolve. Said more succintly, don't make things worse.

4. Did someone actually use Pardon the Interruption as a source for hockey information?

 

[Hewson]

Plain and simple...when Moore is able to play NHL hockey again, then Bertuzzi should be allowed to as well.
If this were to cost Moore his career, then it should cost Bertuzzi his as well.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

i have to say, after bertuzzi's apology, i'm satisfied, and have a little more respect for the man now. that's all that i was really looking for, was for todd to admit that what he did was wrong, to step up and take responsibility, and also to acknowledge the ramifications that those actions had. i think he still deserves whatever punnishment he gets, but i realize that i am in no position to decide this punnishment, and the people working in the league office are there for a reason, and will make a reasonable judgement.

i am also glad to hear that steve moore is okay! a neck injury is always scary, but (knock on wood) this will hopefully be no worse than a "broken arm."

and pinball, i did reference PTI, but not for "hockey information" as such. i thought that wilbon had a decent opinion regarding the length of bertuzzi's suspension. i know that almost no one on espn is too knowledgable in regards to hockey matters, especially outside of the national hockey night, and nhl 2night crews (linda cohn, i'm talking to you).

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Rest of the season, including playoffs.

 

[unforgettableFOXfire]

Rest of the season, including playoffs.

Can I call em, or what?




Now, hockey is a violent game, and I stand by my previous statements on legality, and about the fact that this sort of thing has been happening as long as hockey has been played professionally. MSN, in all its hit-and-miss glory, pulled up a nice gem today.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/columns/top10/hockey_lowlights.html


Most vicious (often retaliatory) attacks in NHL history. Interestingly enough, some of the ones I was referencing arent even on this list. Like it or leave it, this is the way the game has always been played, and people playing the game know it to be true.

Incidentally, I have chronic knee pain from playing hockey, can't even play hockey anymore, and Im only 19. So, tell me that knee-on-knee hits arent as severe, important, or devestating. However, its part of the game, theres a reason that all these dirty hits have penalties and suspensions that go along with them. Ending someones career, with a stick to the head, or a knee to a knee, is still ending someones career - and, I reiterate, if you involve the law, you cannot discern the differences between two nearly-identical types of assault. From there, it all goes downhill. If hockey is too violent for you, watch european hockey; otherwise, what's to say that changing the very core of the game is the right thing to do? We are a violent society, and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. You don't have to like it, but its not going to change a few thousand years of Western history.

 

[fah]

I haven't read the decision bit I heard it on the radio this morning. I'm not satisfied. I don't think it went far enough and I don't like the fact that it is open ended for further review. It sounds to me like the league wanted to give him a bigger suspension but were afraid to do it. This review process leaves the door open if they get too much negative press after their initial decision.

It was great to hear that Steve Moore is going to recover.

I watched Todd Bertuzzi's apology on tv last night and feel that he is truly sorry for what happened. It was nice that he apologized, so many times terrible things happen and the 'bad guy' doesn't apologize.

 

[Lemon Meringue]

I am glad to see that the team was also fined $250,000.00. The coach is also accountable. Bertuzzi was not alone in this.

 

[zoney!]

I think the punishment fits the crime!

 

[Hewson]

I haven't read the decision bit I heard it on the radio this morning. I'm not satisfied. I don't think it went far enough and I don't like the fact that it is open ended for further review. It sounds to me like the league wanted to give him a bigger suspension but were afraid to do it. This review process leaves the door open if they get too much negative press after their initial decision.

I think the open ended part of the suspension, Bertuzzi needing to apply for re-instatement is a wise move. My guess is the leagu will see what Moore's recovery is, and if he is able to play at the beginning of next season (if there is one), then Bertuzzi will also be cleared to play. And if Moore's injuries end up being more serious than currently suspected, Bertuzzi serves longer, hopefully a death penalty to his playing days if Moore is unable to lace 'em up again.

 

[Lemon Meringue]

This guy blames Canada-

Bertuzzi a part of Hockey's Culture

 

[IWasBored]

a guy in the boston globe things the nhl should ban fighting

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

a guy in the boston globe things the nhl should ban fighting

i hate uninformed columnists who say things like this. they fail to realize that fighting is an integral part of hockey, and has its own time honored traditions and customs. some have gone so far as to say that the only reason fighting is around, is for the commercial benefit (playing to the wwf culture, or some bs like that).

fighting is a necessary part of hockey, and even has five pages devoted to it in the rulebook. it will never go away.

that being said, other violence in hockey needs to be corrected. incidents like the one in vancouver on monday have nothing to do with fighting. they are simply examples of the fact that some players simply have no respect for the well being of their peers. they operate outside of the rules, and deserve punnishment for their actions

 

[zoney!]

A few things:

Read the quote below concerning the whole Bertuzzi incident.

Originally said by NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman
The message we're sending is that this is not part of our game, it has no place in our game and it will not be tolerated in our game.

I think a few others in this thread said that actions like what Bertuzzi did was part of the norm in the NHL....something that should be "expected" when you get on the ice. Seems like there is a bit confusion on your part...according to the head of the NHL...this is NOT part of hockey. Doesn't matter HOW MANY years you have played.

second:

Originally said by Bertuzzi
These comments are for Steve. I had no intention of hurting you. I feel awful for what transpired.

He is an outright LIAR. No one aims for a playing like bertuzzi did without intent to injure. AND< I doubt he would feel "awful" if he didn't injure Moore as bad as he did.

I hope he doesn't get reinstated.

THIRD:

ALL the talk in EVERY paper I pick up today is about hockey and fighting. Even Paul Martin has made a statement.

Originally said by Canadian PM Paul Martin
I think that Canadians feel that there is a problem with hockey, there's a problem with violence in sports and that it should be dealt with. I'd certainly say (to professional hockey), "lean up your act.''.

 

[Hewson]

He is an outright LIAR. No one aims for a playing like bertuzzi did without intent to injure. AND< I doubt he would feel "awful" if he didn't injure Moore as bad as he did.

I must agree 100% here...to say he had no intent to hurt Moore is absolute bullsh*t. He was pissed Moore wouldn't drop the gloves, which he already had earlier in the game with someone more his size, which should have squared the incident, and he not only sucker punched him, but then pounced on him (and from replays it was clear Moore was unconscious befor hitting the ice) and attempted to pound on him some more, how can he say he didn't mean to hurt him.
I think if Bertuzzi never set foot on an NHL sheet of ice again, forfeiting millions in salary, it might get the mesage across to some others.