Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Here is the translation of Bono's interview with the German weekly newspaper Die Zeit. Sorry if the English isn't the best.
“I'm not a Mother Teresa”
The U2 singer speaks about Africa, popstars in the fight against poverty and the G8 summit in Heiligendamm.
A quick smile, a strong handshake, and already he sits and puts off his trademark, the brown tinted glasses. Roll on! It can begin, time is short. This man always has dates on all continents, with Nelson Mandela, Bill Gates, George W. Bush or Angela Merkel. And, of course, with the pope either. Bono, the rockstar, fighter for a juster world.
We are in Berlin, in the office of his organization, DATA, which is fighting for debt relief, free trade and the eradication of AIDS in Africa. It was only opened in the beginning of this year, specially for the G8 summit, to be held in June in Heiligendamm. Pressure should be exerted on the rich and powerful nations in the run-up, so that they will cash in their promises on development aid policies. Bono just discussed foobar activities with the German co-ordinators of “Deine Stimme gegen Armut” (Your voice against poverty). The German branch of the worldwide campaign is supported by Herbert Groenemeyer (German singer), Claudia Schiffer and numerous other celebrities. Their aim is that the German government , the host of Heiligendamm, leads by good example against the global poverty.
Die Zeit: Two years ago, at the G8 summit in Gleneagles the great economic powers decided to double their development aid to 50 billion each year by 2010, half of it for Africa. If you take alook at the statistics of your organization DATA Germany lies way behind it's promises.
Bono: It's worrying us greatly, indeed, that the self-commitments of Gleneagles aren't getting cashed-in. We thought if there is one country that keeps its promises, it would be Germany. I like the Germans, but even people that doesn't believe that. It would be a desaster if the German government didn't keep word, also because other governments would copy that. It would be a moral bankrupt and cost many lifes in the south. Because they don't have medicine against HIV/AIDS. Or because moscito nets would be missed to protect from moscito bites. 3,000 children die from malaria, every day – in the 21st century.
Die Zeit: All hopes lie on the G8 summit in the beginning of June in Heiligendamm, and on our chancellor Angela Merkel who you once called a “very wise woman”.
Bono: Yes, that's she is, indeed. Because she doesn't see the support of Africa not only as a moral imperative, but also as a geopolitical necessity. Because there are Chinese who are effectively buying the whole continent – oil, gas, and resources of all kinds – and have a negaitve influence in resource rich countries as the Sudan. In the oil-state Nigeria the islamisation is moving on, and a mini-Iraq is comig into existence there. Somalia is an instructive example of what is happening if we let alone a country. It would be extremely stupid if we didn't mind the developments on our neighbour continent. Our support is a very good investment. It saves lives and it prevents states form collapsing. Miss Merkel knows that because she thinks strategically.
Die Zeit: So she isn't only doing lip-service?
Bono: No, not at all. But the question is, how do we translate her good intentions into hard cash? Because the decision to help its neighbours is very unpopular. Hey, they say, we have a lot of problems ourself. Politicians need much ciurage , and they need a strong tailwind. That comes from a growing move in Germany, mostly from the campaign “Deine Stimme gegen Armut”, that get carried by aid organizations and Herbert Groenemeyer.
Die Zeit: You talked about the Merkel-Ballack-effect (Michael Ballack is a German soccer player). Will we experience it in Heiligendamm?
Bono: That also depends on us. We have to get out on the street, organise light chains(?) and teach every politician that this summit is of greatest importance. We have to reach the youth culture. I myself feel like at times like a slowpoke when I'm amid the fans of Tokio Hotel, like recently at the Echo ceremony here in Berlin. But these teenagers are enthused when I tell them that 20 million children can go to Africa because of the debt relief for the poorest countries, that was initiated by Germany eight years ago. They feel that it makes fun to be active. At the end the muscians of Tokio Hotel came to me and said the want to do something, either. That's encouraging. New Germans are showing up that stopped to carry the weight of their history with them. They are proud about their country. At the soccer world championship they danced like Brazilians.
Die Zeit: You just talked about moral and strategic motives. What is it that drives you?
Bono: I stopped to think about it. Because I've moved to a place I actually don't want to be. I've now gotten the most dreadful role you can think of: I've become a reasonable person. But there is anger beneath the surface, and most of all it's the stupidity that upsets me. But I've enjoined good manners. I think strategically and know, to use a soccer analogy, how to overcome a defense out the midfield and score a goal. I've enountering many intelligent and gifted people, but they just do nothing. I try to view things from their perspective to futher or case. It's not only to turn potential enemies into friends. I just feel to be amid the real life.
Die Zeit: Like a singing Mother Teresa in the misery of the world?
Bono: Ouch, that hurts!. She had a beautiful voice, but we don't have the same pitch of voice. I'm a punkrocker and not a hippie who holds hands and gets led by wishful thinking. I'm making deals, and I want that something moves forward. I've got much more from the singer of The Clash, Joe Strummer, than from Mother Teresa.
Die Zeit: Doesn't look like that.
Bono: I'm wearing the working clothes of my enemies. (Bono shows his black jacket and the anthrazit-colored shirt beneath.) I'm clad like a banker... Do you know the book We have met the enemy, and they are partly right by Anthony Campolo? It helped me to understand the resistance in our fight.
Die Zeit: One example?
Bono: Let's take the corruption, one of the greatest barriers for development aid. The people just don't believe that their money gets spent on sound aims anymore. They think it only fills the pockets of Presidents.
Die Zeit: Or of tyrans like Bokassa, who slept on golden beds.
Bono: Exactly. But these example come from the cold war era, when we, the west, financed despots and thieves wittingly. Because they were no communists. But I'll say it again: Corruption is the greatest problem in Africa, even before the AIDS-pandemic.
Die Zeit: And what can we do against it?
Bono: We should stop to give aid in form of blank cheques. That's money thrown out the window. And it's naive. However, we from DATA support targeted aid. It should reward countries that distinguish themselves by good leadership, tackling of corruption and transpareny. We want to see where the money is going in detail.
Die Zeit: Is that even possible?
Bono: Let's take the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, TB and Malaria and its work in Uganda. Critics said, look, that's not working, money is peculated/embezzled. This example shows that they've learned. Because when the Global Fund couldn't understand where how much was being spent, it pulled out for a while. No money for Uganda anymore. That's how it must be. Aid should be used as carrot or stick from case to case.
Die Zeit: It seems it not really matters to President Mugabe, who is currently ruining Simbabwe. Who do we handle dictators of his shape?
Bono: I've met Mugabe several years ago. By the way, he has an ubelievable walk. (Bono gets up and apes the walk of Simbabwe's President.). I couldn't meet this man today, it would make me uneased physically. I've have to restrain/suspend myself at this question very much. I've once been to a meeting of the leaders from the southern African countries. They didn't mention what's going on in Simbabwe once. The President of Malawi told me, “Make no mistake about it, we've disputed all night long what we could do. But when it comes to the vow there is no criticism voiced.”
Die Zeit: The neighbour countries prefer soft diplomacy.
Bono: But that doesn't work. We aren't willing to accept this strategy anymore, too many people are dying. That's also no news to the President of South Africa, Thebo Mbeki, he has to act now, he has the greatest influence. But then they are sitting together again, the African men, and they are like Irish men, they don't accept to get told anything. That's how it could happen that Mugabe destroyed the NEPAD-initiative on it's own.
Die Zeit: Nevertheless you are demanding a Marshallplan for Africa. But didn't all our development models fail miserably in the last fifty years?
Bono: We should exclude the aid during the cold war and talk about the last ten to fifteen years. There has been a tremendous change of development aid strategies during that time, many projects have been a success, and the efficiency has increased. My favourite example is the well that was built by an aid organzation so that the women don't have to walk many miles to catch water every day anymore. “We've got the solution” the experts said and set a well in the centre of the village. . Very soon they were surprised to find out that nobody uses it. “What's up? Are they stupid?”, the aid workers asked themselves. Problem was, the women wanted to go the long way to the well because that was the only time they were by themselves, away from their men. So the aid workers moved the well to a place outside the village. What does that teach us? We just have to listen more to the people. The debt relief for the poorest countries proves as well that developlment aid works. Money got available to build schools. You can visit the schools. That's the only way to convince people of the increase in aid: when they see that it doesn't disappear. There have been improvements in HIV/AIDS as well. At the G8 summit five years ago it was said that antiretroviral drugs are useless in Africa because Africans wouldn't take them regularly. A top-worker of USAID from Washington said to me: They don't even have watches, what should they do with this medicine? Today we know the compliance of Africans is often better than of Europeans or Americans. Back then I told the official of USAID: You can get a cold coke or a Guinness in the furthest corner of Africa, so it should be possible to deliver the medicine there. This argument convinced the conservative government in Washington.
Die Zeit: And since then you like President George Bush more than you could ever have imagined...
Bono: By now the US is leading in the fight against AIDS worldwide. That's one of the feew good things Bush needs to be applauded for. I said to him: Mr President, color the pills in red, blue and white if you need to. But it's the best advertisement you could do for your country. Four years ago 50,000 Africans have been on antiretroviral treatment, today it's more than a million.
Die Zeit: The expenses on the pills are, compared to the billions that get wasted in Iraq, just peanuts:
Bono: Here I have to tell you a story. One Sunday an American Four-Star-General called me privately. He wanted to know what we are doing. And then he spoke about the mission of the navy at the Liberian coast and about high-tech weapons like cruise missiles that cost billion. And then he said: But we lose the war, because Hamas builds schools. His formular was: Stability equals security plus development. If a US-military, a Four-Star-General says something like that you know that the world is moving. Let's stay on topic education. Together with the British Treasurer Gordon Brown I've been to Abuja in Nigeria. We visited a school, the children sang and danced, the usual procedure. In sociology classes Gordon asked the fifteen year old students what they understand by democracy. The answers were unbelievably undeceived/enlightened. And Gordon said to me, “See, Bono, Education! Education! Education!” And I responded with: “But what's with the children up in Northern Nigeria, where extremists indoctrinate them to hate us?” You can't teach children to appreciate western values. But we can teach them to think freely.
Die Zeit: Agreed. But nevertheless there is the “Curse of the good deed.” It was noticed again and again that too much aid rather throttles the efforts of the receivers.
Bono: What do you think of training allowances for smart kids in poor quarters? The depent on help? Yes, they do. But do we therefore stop to support these childrens? The same applies to countries that develop promisingly and introduce own strategies for tackling the poverty. 100 million children all over the world want to go to school but cannot. The British government let compute that their enrollment would cost about 10 billion dollars each year. Look at this figure: Ten billion to change the world.
Die Zeit: The American development economist William Easterly demands: Give less aid a chance, less and better aid.
Bono: We need more and better aid. I understand contrarians like Easterly well; as for the past his analysis isn't wrong. But they don't keep up with the new developments. We shouldn't forget that 5,000 Africans die from AIDS today, and 5,000 tomorrow again and the day after again. Easterly has to explain to them that for them less aid is better. I don't have anything against polemics, but we need less of them and better ones.
Die Zeit: On the other hand, the celebrities who want to save the planet become more and more. Wole Soyinka, the Nigerian nobel literature prize winner, once said to the Zeit he couldn'T stand these “new missionaries”. The would help to help themselves.
Bono: I hope he doesn't think that about me.
Die Zeit: It was the likes of Bob Geldof, Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt, Madonna....
Bono: I think, some of them do extraordinary things to leave the world they got born/thrown into as a better place. I don't care at all whether their intentions are true or false. Doesn't matter how egomaniacally they act, I can't be bothered. What do the motives play for a role if the ideas are good? Would we really ask a goal scorer if his goals came from heart? I can understand Soyinka's objection really well, and I know the unease of my African friends. They see how their continent, their country gets showed off as a tragedy. It annoys them because Africans are noble, proud, adventuresome and very gifted people. Of course it upsets me that sometimes I'm speaking of this tragedy myself. But you have to represent the plight dramatically, otherwise nobody listens. Beyond that we often forget the success stories. We should begin to see Africa more as a chance and less as a burden. Also because of that I can understand why Africans get upset about spoilt, putrid and rich rockstars. More so if when they pose next to the poor people on press photographs.
Die Zeit: Preferably with macerated children on their arms.
Bono: Yes, I feel very uncomfortable myself about it. I know that these photos are unfair and hypocritical. Because I'm also the one that gets pictured on there. I would be an unbearable good-doer if I would give away all my money in the believe I could thereby save the world. The the Mther-Teresa-syndrom would be totally out of control. I hope to stay earnest with my attitude. I commit myself to the underpriviledged people and then I come home and live in luxus. That's me. So: Shoot me!
Die Zeit: Is this contrast motivating you?
Bono: We've already spoken about my motivation. I want to elucidate it with one example. 1985, during the starvation in Ethiopia I worked together with my wife in an orphanage in the north of the country. One day a father asked me to take his son with me. He said, “Please, take him, then he will have a good life. If he stays here he will die.” This son was all the world to him, and he wanted to give him to me.
Die Zeit: Did you think about taking the child with you?
Bono: Yes, of course. That's why I don't condemn it if Angelina Jolie or Madonna adopt children. That's fantastic. But I try to shape a world in which this Ethiopian father doesn't have to give his son, and in which children don't have to starve to death.
Die Zeit: You collect millions from billionaires, is it a kind of indulgence paid by the super rich?
Bono: For me that's heros. Without the support from people like Bill Gates we couldn't do what we are doing. I like that he is as strict on the philantropical sector as he on the economic. He is a tough dog/guy, he gives much money to us and wants to know where each penny is spent on in detail. I repeat myself: I don't care about the motives of money lenders. We want to do out job, there is no competition of the golden hearts.
Die Zeit: Once again the “Charitainment”, the connection of charity and entertainment industry...
Bono: You are persistent! Roll on!
Die Zeit: It's not new that celebrities act charitably. But often it's only part of an intelligent PR-strategy.
Bono: Again: If people try to make aware of the needs of other people, I applaud them. It's similar to sex. Woody Allen once said: There is no such thing as bad sex. The motives of celebrities don't bother me. And the bad jokes made about them, neither.
Die Zeit: For example Sinèad O'Connor. She once accused you of...
Bono: ...being born!
Die Zeit: ...to go to bed with politicans.
Bono: I turn politicans on, but I don't have sex with them.
Die Zeit: But it can be dangerous if you hug powerful men too often, can't it?
Bono: Only for my image, not for me. It might not be very cool or hip if a rockstar goes into such clasp, and I know that my band U2 does think so. There are also people that literally begged me not to show up on photos with politicians. But I've always said I would meet Lucifer for lunch if it would help the cause.
Die Zeit: Dies it also help the cause if, like last year happened, U2 moves it place of tax from Ireland to the Netherlands? An Irish commentator wrote: They want a charter.
Bono: That's just not true. We've paid a lot of taxes. And I don't know a single company that pays more taxes than it needs to. And as an aside: One of the reasons for Irelands wealth is the tax reform. The government encouraged us all to be innovative when it comes to taxes. So this is not a case of hypocrisy. Apart from that, we as a band still pay a lot of taxes. The people don't understand that we earn most of our money outside of Ireland and that we pay all over the world. Do you have to be an idiot if you are a musician? Do you have to run around with a cannula in your arm only to serve the romantic death cult? When it comes to the image I'm rather a tough business man than Mother Teresa.
Die Zeit: Many thanks for the interview.
Bono: It was great. Like at the Spanish inquisition.
“I'm not a Mother Teresa”
The U2 singer speaks about Africa, popstars in the fight against poverty and the G8 summit in Heiligendamm.
A quick smile, a strong handshake, and already he sits and puts off his trademark, the brown tinted glasses. Roll on! It can begin, time is short. This man always has dates on all continents, with Nelson Mandela, Bill Gates, George W. Bush or Angela Merkel. And, of course, with the pope either. Bono, the rockstar, fighter for a juster world.
We are in Berlin, in the office of his organization, DATA, which is fighting for debt relief, free trade and the eradication of AIDS in Africa. It was only opened in the beginning of this year, specially for the G8 summit, to be held in June in Heiligendamm. Pressure should be exerted on the rich and powerful nations in the run-up, so that they will cash in their promises on development aid policies. Bono just discussed foobar activities with the German co-ordinators of “Deine Stimme gegen Armut” (Your voice against poverty). The German branch of the worldwide campaign is supported by Herbert Groenemeyer (German singer), Claudia Schiffer and numerous other celebrities. Their aim is that the German government , the host of Heiligendamm, leads by good example against the global poverty.
Die Zeit: Two years ago, at the G8 summit in Gleneagles the great economic powers decided to double their development aid to 50 billion each year by 2010, half of it for Africa. If you take alook at the statistics of your organization DATA Germany lies way behind it's promises.
Bono: It's worrying us greatly, indeed, that the self-commitments of Gleneagles aren't getting cashed-in. We thought if there is one country that keeps its promises, it would be Germany. I like the Germans, but even people that doesn't believe that. It would be a desaster if the German government didn't keep word, also because other governments would copy that. It would be a moral bankrupt and cost many lifes in the south. Because they don't have medicine against HIV/AIDS. Or because moscito nets would be missed to protect from moscito bites. 3,000 children die from malaria, every day – in the 21st century.
Die Zeit: All hopes lie on the G8 summit in the beginning of June in Heiligendamm, and on our chancellor Angela Merkel who you once called a “very wise woman”.
Bono: Yes, that's she is, indeed. Because she doesn't see the support of Africa not only as a moral imperative, but also as a geopolitical necessity. Because there are Chinese who are effectively buying the whole continent – oil, gas, and resources of all kinds – and have a negaitve influence in resource rich countries as the Sudan. In the oil-state Nigeria the islamisation is moving on, and a mini-Iraq is comig into existence there. Somalia is an instructive example of what is happening if we let alone a country. It would be extremely stupid if we didn't mind the developments on our neighbour continent. Our support is a very good investment. It saves lives and it prevents states form collapsing. Miss Merkel knows that because she thinks strategically.
Die Zeit: So she isn't only doing lip-service?
Bono: No, not at all. But the question is, how do we translate her good intentions into hard cash? Because the decision to help its neighbours is very unpopular. Hey, they say, we have a lot of problems ourself. Politicians need much ciurage , and they need a strong tailwind. That comes from a growing move in Germany, mostly from the campaign “Deine Stimme gegen Armut”, that get carried by aid organizations and Herbert Groenemeyer.
Die Zeit: You talked about the Merkel-Ballack-effect (Michael Ballack is a German soccer player). Will we experience it in Heiligendamm?
Bono: That also depends on us. We have to get out on the street, organise light chains(?) and teach every politician that this summit is of greatest importance. We have to reach the youth culture. I myself feel like at times like a slowpoke when I'm amid the fans of Tokio Hotel, like recently at the Echo ceremony here in Berlin. But these teenagers are enthused when I tell them that 20 million children can go to Africa because of the debt relief for the poorest countries, that was initiated by Germany eight years ago. They feel that it makes fun to be active. At the end the muscians of Tokio Hotel came to me and said the want to do something, either. That's encouraging. New Germans are showing up that stopped to carry the weight of their history with them. They are proud about their country. At the soccer world championship they danced like Brazilians.
Die Zeit: You just talked about moral and strategic motives. What is it that drives you?
Bono: I stopped to think about it. Because I've moved to a place I actually don't want to be. I've now gotten the most dreadful role you can think of: I've become a reasonable person. But there is anger beneath the surface, and most of all it's the stupidity that upsets me. But I've enjoined good manners. I think strategically and know, to use a soccer analogy, how to overcome a defense out the midfield and score a goal. I've enountering many intelligent and gifted people, but they just do nothing. I try to view things from their perspective to futher or case. It's not only to turn potential enemies into friends. I just feel to be amid the real life.
Die Zeit: Like a singing Mother Teresa in the misery of the world?
Bono: Ouch, that hurts!. She had a beautiful voice, but we don't have the same pitch of voice. I'm a punkrocker and not a hippie who holds hands and gets led by wishful thinking. I'm making deals, and I want that something moves forward. I've got much more from the singer of The Clash, Joe Strummer, than from Mother Teresa.
Die Zeit: Doesn't look like that.
Bono: I'm wearing the working clothes of my enemies. (Bono shows his black jacket and the anthrazit-colored shirt beneath.) I'm clad like a banker... Do you know the book We have met the enemy, and they are partly right by Anthony Campolo? It helped me to understand the resistance in our fight.
Die Zeit: One example?
Bono: Let's take the corruption, one of the greatest barriers for development aid. The people just don't believe that their money gets spent on sound aims anymore. They think it only fills the pockets of Presidents.
Die Zeit: Or of tyrans like Bokassa, who slept on golden beds.
Bono: Exactly. But these example come from the cold war era, when we, the west, financed despots and thieves wittingly. Because they were no communists. But I'll say it again: Corruption is the greatest problem in Africa, even before the AIDS-pandemic.
Die Zeit: And what can we do against it?
Bono: We should stop to give aid in form of blank cheques. That's money thrown out the window. And it's naive. However, we from DATA support targeted aid. It should reward countries that distinguish themselves by good leadership, tackling of corruption and transpareny. We want to see where the money is going in detail.
Die Zeit: Is that even possible?
Bono: Let's take the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, TB and Malaria and its work in Uganda. Critics said, look, that's not working, money is peculated/embezzled. This example shows that they've learned. Because when the Global Fund couldn't understand where how much was being spent, it pulled out for a while. No money for Uganda anymore. That's how it must be. Aid should be used as carrot or stick from case to case.
Die Zeit: It seems it not really matters to President Mugabe, who is currently ruining Simbabwe. Who do we handle dictators of his shape?
Bono: I've met Mugabe several years ago. By the way, he has an ubelievable walk. (Bono gets up and apes the walk of Simbabwe's President.). I couldn't meet this man today, it would make me uneased physically. I've have to restrain/suspend myself at this question very much. I've once been to a meeting of the leaders from the southern African countries. They didn't mention what's going on in Simbabwe once. The President of Malawi told me, “Make no mistake about it, we've disputed all night long what we could do. But when it comes to the vow there is no criticism voiced.”
Die Zeit: The neighbour countries prefer soft diplomacy.
Bono: But that doesn't work. We aren't willing to accept this strategy anymore, too many people are dying. That's also no news to the President of South Africa, Thebo Mbeki, he has to act now, he has the greatest influence. But then they are sitting together again, the African men, and they are like Irish men, they don't accept to get told anything. That's how it could happen that Mugabe destroyed the NEPAD-initiative on it's own.
Die Zeit: Nevertheless you are demanding a Marshallplan for Africa. But didn't all our development models fail miserably in the last fifty years?
Bono: We should exclude the aid during the cold war and talk about the last ten to fifteen years. There has been a tremendous change of development aid strategies during that time, many projects have been a success, and the efficiency has increased. My favourite example is the well that was built by an aid organzation so that the women don't have to walk many miles to catch water every day anymore. “We've got the solution” the experts said and set a well in the centre of the village. . Very soon they were surprised to find out that nobody uses it. “What's up? Are they stupid?”, the aid workers asked themselves. Problem was, the women wanted to go the long way to the well because that was the only time they were by themselves, away from their men. So the aid workers moved the well to a place outside the village. What does that teach us? We just have to listen more to the people. The debt relief for the poorest countries proves as well that developlment aid works. Money got available to build schools. You can visit the schools. That's the only way to convince people of the increase in aid: when they see that it doesn't disappear. There have been improvements in HIV/AIDS as well. At the G8 summit five years ago it was said that antiretroviral drugs are useless in Africa because Africans wouldn't take them regularly. A top-worker of USAID from Washington said to me: They don't even have watches, what should they do with this medicine? Today we know the compliance of Africans is often better than of Europeans or Americans. Back then I told the official of USAID: You can get a cold coke or a Guinness in the furthest corner of Africa, so it should be possible to deliver the medicine there. This argument convinced the conservative government in Washington.
Die Zeit: And since then you like President George Bush more than you could ever have imagined...
Bono: By now the US is leading in the fight against AIDS worldwide. That's one of the feew good things Bush needs to be applauded for. I said to him: Mr President, color the pills in red, blue and white if you need to. But it's the best advertisement you could do for your country. Four years ago 50,000 Africans have been on antiretroviral treatment, today it's more than a million.
Die Zeit: The expenses on the pills are, compared to the billions that get wasted in Iraq, just peanuts:
Bono: Here I have to tell you a story. One Sunday an American Four-Star-General called me privately. He wanted to know what we are doing. And then he spoke about the mission of the navy at the Liberian coast and about high-tech weapons like cruise missiles that cost billion. And then he said: But we lose the war, because Hamas builds schools. His formular was: Stability equals security plus development. If a US-military, a Four-Star-General says something like that you know that the world is moving. Let's stay on topic education. Together with the British Treasurer Gordon Brown I've been to Abuja in Nigeria. We visited a school, the children sang and danced, the usual procedure. In sociology classes Gordon asked the fifteen year old students what they understand by democracy. The answers were unbelievably undeceived/enlightened. And Gordon said to me, “See, Bono, Education! Education! Education!” And I responded with: “But what's with the children up in Northern Nigeria, where extremists indoctrinate them to hate us?” You can't teach children to appreciate western values. But we can teach them to think freely.
Die Zeit: Agreed. But nevertheless there is the “Curse of the good deed.” It was noticed again and again that too much aid rather throttles the efforts of the receivers.
Bono: What do you think of training allowances for smart kids in poor quarters? The depent on help? Yes, they do. But do we therefore stop to support these childrens? The same applies to countries that develop promisingly and introduce own strategies for tackling the poverty. 100 million children all over the world want to go to school but cannot. The British government let compute that their enrollment would cost about 10 billion dollars each year. Look at this figure: Ten billion to change the world.
Die Zeit: The American development economist William Easterly demands: Give less aid a chance, less and better aid.
Bono: We need more and better aid. I understand contrarians like Easterly well; as for the past his analysis isn't wrong. But they don't keep up with the new developments. We shouldn't forget that 5,000 Africans die from AIDS today, and 5,000 tomorrow again and the day after again. Easterly has to explain to them that for them less aid is better. I don't have anything against polemics, but we need less of them and better ones.
Die Zeit: On the other hand, the celebrities who want to save the planet become more and more. Wole Soyinka, the Nigerian nobel literature prize winner, once said to the Zeit he couldn'T stand these “new missionaries”. The would help to help themselves.
Bono: I hope he doesn't think that about me.
Die Zeit: It was the likes of Bob Geldof, Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt, Madonna....
Bono: I think, some of them do extraordinary things to leave the world they got born/thrown into as a better place. I don't care at all whether their intentions are true or false. Doesn't matter how egomaniacally they act, I can't be bothered. What do the motives play for a role if the ideas are good? Would we really ask a goal scorer if his goals came from heart? I can understand Soyinka's objection really well, and I know the unease of my African friends. They see how their continent, their country gets showed off as a tragedy. It annoys them because Africans are noble, proud, adventuresome and very gifted people. Of course it upsets me that sometimes I'm speaking of this tragedy myself. But you have to represent the plight dramatically, otherwise nobody listens. Beyond that we often forget the success stories. We should begin to see Africa more as a chance and less as a burden. Also because of that I can understand why Africans get upset about spoilt, putrid and rich rockstars. More so if when they pose next to the poor people on press photographs.
Die Zeit: Preferably with macerated children on their arms.
Bono: Yes, I feel very uncomfortable myself about it. I know that these photos are unfair and hypocritical. Because I'm also the one that gets pictured on there. I would be an unbearable good-doer if I would give away all my money in the believe I could thereby save the world. The the Mther-Teresa-syndrom would be totally out of control. I hope to stay earnest with my attitude. I commit myself to the underpriviledged people and then I come home and live in luxus. That's me. So: Shoot me!
Die Zeit: Is this contrast motivating you?
Bono: We've already spoken about my motivation. I want to elucidate it with one example. 1985, during the starvation in Ethiopia I worked together with my wife in an orphanage in the north of the country. One day a father asked me to take his son with me. He said, “Please, take him, then he will have a good life. If he stays here he will die.” This son was all the world to him, and he wanted to give him to me.
Die Zeit: Did you think about taking the child with you?
Bono: Yes, of course. That's why I don't condemn it if Angelina Jolie or Madonna adopt children. That's fantastic. But I try to shape a world in which this Ethiopian father doesn't have to give his son, and in which children don't have to starve to death.
Die Zeit: You collect millions from billionaires, is it a kind of indulgence paid by the super rich?
Bono: For me that's heros. Without the support from people like Bill Gates we couldn't do what we are doing. I like that he is as strict on the philantropical sector as he on the economic. He is a tough dog/guy, he gives much money to us and wants to know where each penny is spent on in detail. I repeat myself: I don't care about the motives of money lenders. We want to do out job, there is no competition of the golden hearts.
Die Zeit: Once again the “Charitainment”, the connection of charity and entertainment industry...
Bono: You are persistent! Roll on!
Die Zeit: It's not new that celebrities act charitably. But often it's only part of an intelligent PR-strategy.
Bono: Again: If people try to make aware of the needs of other people, I applaud them. It's similar to sex. Woody Allen once said: There is no such thing as bad sex. The motives of celebrities don't bother me. And the bad jokes made about them, neither.
Die Zeit: For example Sinèad O'Connor. She once accused you of...
Bono: ...being born!
Die Zeit: ...to go to bed with politicans.
Bono: I turn politicans on, but I don't have sex with them.
Die Zeit: But it can be dangerous if you hug powerful men too often, can't it?
Bono: Only for my image, not for me. It might not be very cool or hip if a rockstar goes into such clasp, and I know that my band U2 does think so. There are also people that literally begged me not to show up on photos with politicians. But I've always said I would meet Lucifer for lunch if it would help the cause.
Die Zeit: Dies it also help the cause if, like last year happened, U2 moves it place of tax from Ireland to the Netherlands? An Irish commentator wrote: They want a charter.
Bono: That's just not true. We've paid a lot of taxes. And I don't know a single company that pays more taxes than it needs to. And as an aside: One of the reasons for Irelands wealth is the tax reform. The government encouraged us all to be innovative when it comes to taxes. So this is not a case of hypocrisy. Apart from that, we as a band still pay a lot of taxes. The people don't understand that we earn most of our money outside of Ireland and that we pay all over the world. Do you have to be an idiot if you are a musician? Do you have to run around with a cannula in your arm only to serve the romantic death cult? When it comes to the image I'm rather a tough business man than Mother Teresa.
Die Zeit: Many thanks for the interview.
Bono: It was great. Like at the Spanish inquisition.
