MERGED--> U2 & New Orleans + U2 and tragedy

[markoajda]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: U2 and tragedy

You obviously no nothing about when this hurricane formed, so I'm not going to go further. To say the U.S. had a week to evacuate New Orleans is completely false.

Where did I say it? I was asking a question if you look closely. I wasn't saying it for a fact you know.

Bottom line is seems to me (and the world) that your president is more consered about war in Iraq then preventing possible disasters that unfortunatly happened in NO.

 

[ramblin rose]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: U2 and tragedy

Sure it's false. Katrina came from blue skies and surprised the whole nation in the US. That's why US was unprepared and so quick to help.

Damn those local news. How there they criticise US. I'm writing them a letter.

Anyways here's a good place to start ramblin rose.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2005/08/31/disaster_preparation/index_np.html

You can go on from there to

http://nebraska.statepaper.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/09/05/431c79cc221f2

What do either of these articles have to do with being able to evacuate 1.6mm people 1 week before the hurricane hit? That's the only part of your post that I questioned.

Where did I say it? I was asking a question if you look closely. I wasn't saying it for a fact you know.

Bottom line is seems to me (and the world) that your president is more consered about war in Iraq then preventing possible disasters that unfortunatly happened in NO.

That's why I asked you where you got a very specific portion of your post.

I didn't question anything else.

(And fyi, I am not a Bush supporter, did not vote for him, am against the war in Iraq and still have vivid memories of surviving Hurricane Andrew.)

 

[markoajda]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: U2 and tragedy

Oh, and would somehow all these people not have been homeless, regardless of what type of evacuation would have occurred?

Isn't it better to be homeless then dead?

 

[ramblin rose]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: U2 and tragedy

Isn't it better to be homeless then dead?

Definately. As far as I know there aren't 1.6MM dead.

 

[gvox]

I think its general consensus that the US govt failed the people of the coastal states. Even though there were warnings (too late), you have to wonder if people understand the whole category system..I know I dont...ie...did anyone come out and say to the people of New Orleans....get out, the water is going to be 15-20 ft deep when this is all over? Did anyone go door to door? Isnt that what the Natl Guard is supposed to do during an evacuation? Drive down streets with megaphones? Or do I have a Hollywood perception of it all?

As for the relief, now THATs a travesty. No way those people should have been waiting so long.

 

[ramblin rose]

The evacuation would have been handled by the state government, (not the Federal government).

The way the evacuation was handled was the screw up of the Mayor of New Orleans and Governor of Louisiana. The way the aftermath was handled was the screw up both the state and federal government.

And if you live in a state/city prone to have hurricanes believe me you know the whole category system.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: U2 and tragedy

Where did I say it? I was asking a question if you look closely. I wasn't saying it for a fact you know.

Bottom line is seems to me (and the world) that your president is more consered about war in Iraq then preventing possible disasters that unfortunatly happened in NO.

you could not prevent the disaster from occuring. it's a hurricaine. can't stop a hurricaine.

evacuation notices were sent out on a massive level. the vast majority of the people did, in fact, leave the city. those who were left behind either chose to stay or were too poor and had no where else to go and no way of getting there.

the travesty... the royal fuck up, if you will... by the united states government at ALL levels... from the city level to the state level to the federal level... across all parties... bush is republican, the governor of louisiana is a democrat... across all races... the mayor of new orleans is african-american... was not having the neccesary and proper supplies/people/troops in place to deal with the after effects of the hurricaine. THAT is the fuck up.

before you start criticizing our government, make sure you get the facts of what to criticize straight first.

 

[Westblue]

actually markoajda is partly right, i study geography so I'm familliar with the whole situation (how the hurricane was formed and when) and they really had about 6-5 days, maybe 7 days -- they knew (meterologists, government institutions) that Katrina will be one of the biggest hurricanes to hit the shores of the USA and that fact was becoming clearer and clearer by each day.
Government really did screw up, but they did it a lot of times I suppose.. i'm not an american citizen so i have no right to accuse them, but this here is a fact a lot of people who died could have be saved if the evacuation plans were made earlier and more thoroughly..
klemen

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I think its general consensus that the US govt failed the people of the coastal states. Even though there were warnings (too late), you have to wonder if people understand the whole category system..I know I dont...ie...did anyone come out and say to the people of New Orleans....get out, the water is going to be 15-20 ft deep when this is all over? Did anyone go door to door? Isnt that what the Natl Guard is supposed to do during an evacuation? Drive down streets with megaphones? Or do I have a Hollywood perception of it all?

As for the relief, now THATs a travesty. No way those people should have been waiting so long.

new orleans is a bath-tub. it's built below sea level. just like people living in southern california know that eventually a massive earthquake could come along and destroy everything, those who lived in new orleans knew of the posability of a hurricaine comming and flooding the entire city. wether or not most actually believed it would happen is another story... but this is not a scenario that hasn't been discussed before.

 

[ramblin rose]

actually markoajda is partly right, i study geography so I'm familliar with the whole situation (how the hurricane was formed and when) and they really had about 6-5 days, maybe 7 days -- they knew (meterologists, government institutions) that Katrina will be one of the biggest hurricanes to hit the shores of the USA and that fact was becoming clearer and clearer by each day.
Government really did screw up, but they did it a lot of times I suppose.. i'm not an american citizen so i have no right to accuse them, but this here is a fact a lot of people who died could have be saved if the evacuation plans were made earlier and more thoroughly..
klemen

The first forecast advisory was issued on August 23rd. http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2005/mar/al122005.fstadv.001.shtml?

That was probably the earliest anyone could have predicted the hurricane was going to hit NO. And at this point it was still probably to early to determine the exact path other than it was going to hit Florida. The hurricane hit the Gulf Coast on August 28/29. How can you say that anyone in NO had a weeks notice.

Where is this information coming from??

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

this is all silly... hurricaine's have a mind of their own. a full week before hand, forecasters can't pinpoint an exact location. they can guess that it's gonna hit somewhere between... eh... maine and miami. thanks a lot. so next time a tropical depression comes through the atlantic, shall we evacuate the entire east coast?

of course not.

 

[gvox]

Here is what I will agree with markoajda on:

If Bush didn't have thousands of troops in Iraq, there would have been that many more to get the relief effort underway. more ships, more helicopters, more planes.

Hard to argue that one.

 

[kellyahern]

this is all silly... hurricaine's have a mind of their own. a full week before hand, forecasters can't pinpoint an exact location. they can guess that it's gonna hit somewhere between... eh... maine and miami. thanks a lot. so next time a tropical depression comes through the atlantic, shall we evacuate the entire east coast?

of course not.

Tampa was supposed to get a direct hit from Charley last year. In the last few hours, it turned south (lucky for us). Depending on the speed of the storm and when the local authorities decide to evacuate, you might have a couple of days notice.

The only thing a week out to do is pay attention to the weather forcasters and maybe buy some extra supplies just in case.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Here is what I will agree with markoajda on:

If Bush didn't have thousands of troops in Iraq, there would have been that many more to get the relief effort underway. more ships, more helicopters, more planes.

Hard to argue that one.

hard? hmm... maybe, but i'll take a stab at it.

the proper number of national guardsmen and red cross and fema and yadda yadda yadda ARE in new orleans now. the army corp of engineers is doing a fantastic job now.

the problem wasn't that there wasn't enough assets available... the problem was what in the bluest of blue hells took them so long to get there.

the bush administration needs to get slammed on this... as do the local and state governments of the areas effected by Katrina. but please... let's slam them for what they're actually at fault for. there's plenty of amo for the bush haters out there... don't go looking for what's not there.

 

[ramblin rose]

Here is what I will agree with markoajda on:

If Bush didn't have thousands of troops in Iraq, there would have been that many more to get the relief effort underway. more ships, more helicopters, more planes.

Hard to argue that one.

Were we at war when Hurricane Andrew hit? It took the National Guard a week to show up in South Florida .

This has nothing to do with the war in Iraq, it has to do with an organizational fuck up that's happened before with hurricane diasters and will unfortunately probably happen again.

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't. And when they get it wrong, man do they get it wrong.

 

[kellyahern]

The only thing I question is how many Lousianna national guard troops are in Iraq and did that cause a delay in getting troops to New Orleans (having to get troops from other states). I'm not sure if that makes a big difference though. I think headache and rose will probably be right, it's probably more of a big organizational screwup.

 

[gvox]

Hey I can only go by what CNN tells me

LOL

Sorry couldn't resist.

 

[Carek1230]

The only thing I question is how many Lousianna national guard troops are in Iraq and did that cause a delay in getting troops to New Orleans (having to get troops from other states). I'm not sure if that makes a big difference though. I think headache and rose will probably be right, it's probably more of a big organizational screwup.

Interesting point about LA Nat'l Guard numbers, Kelly.....hadn't considered that but certainly something to ponder. My two cents is the whole thing was a major fu*k up all the way around....at this point my vote is to focus on recover, clean up and re-building. Then the public hanging.

 

[japes4]

Were we at war when Hurricane Andrew hit? It took the National Guard a week to show up in South Florida .

This has nothing to do with the war in Iraq, it has to do with an organizational fuck up that's happened before with hurricane diasters and will unfortunately probably happen again.

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't. And when they get it wrong, man do they get it wrong.

I'm inclined to agree. I don't think the problem was a lack of manpower or equipment. I've heard reports of ships, trucks and soldiers ready to go only to be told to wait because New Orleans and the state of Louisiana had not officially asked for their help.

State and local authorities really dropped the ball, but at the same time, the federal government (Bush) should have been a lot more proactive in getting the equipment, supplies and manpower into the region. Under these circumstances, I don't feel that the war in Iraq made any difference whatsoever.

 

[AliEnvy]

For what it's worth, the band is "confirmed" to be rehearsing on Sunday at 2....whether they do it for Katrina relief remains to be seen.

*fingers crossed*