Will they add 2nd Seattle and Vancouver shows this weekend?

[STING2]

NoControl,


"And you have? LOL"


Any I have what?

"I take it that you'll see what you want to see, regardless of the facts."

Any economist will tell you that its a fact that less people are willing to do a certain activity if the price of doing it jumps to 3 to 4 times of what it normally is. This is the case when fans spend money to travel and stay overnight in another town just to see a two hour concert. If you want to ignore that fact, ok.


"A clear distinction? LOL"

"No, I said what I said. If you thought I thought that the second shows would sellout quicker than they did, then you'd be right. But I said "eventually" because I wasn't sure how fast."

The fact is, the shows all soldout very quickly leaving fans without tickets. That is not what you predicted.


"No, the Elevation tour was scheduled the way it was because ticket prices were around 60% higher and they figured that an x amount of people would only pay an x amount of money to see them live."

No, the band new going into the ATYCLB/Elevation promotion faze that nothing was for sure. They could do a stadium tour, at POPMART prices plus inlfation and end with results that were better, worse, or the same than POPMART. Given the circumstance, they decided to play it safe and moved the tour indoors and priced it accordingly.


"The second shows didn't sellout just as fast. And as I've already gone over, the way they scheduled the first leg is why there's multiple shows in markets that normally wouldn't have the demand at an average of $100 otherwise. U2 will only sell between 1.1-1.2 Million tickets in North America this year - their lowest attendancd tour on this side of the Atlantic since the The Unforgettable Fire tour."


Maybe x show sold out at a rate that was 5.5 minutes longer than the first show. When these second shows suddenly go on sale, its not immediately evident to everyone seeking tickets. The fact is, first and second shows soldout in minutes leaving fans without tickets.

On the first leg of the Elevation tour, the band scheduled 16 shows west of the Mississippi River. On the first leg of the Vertigo tour, there are, you guessed it, 16 shows west of the Mississippi River. I don't buy into this theory that all the fans in Portland or Edmonton travel and stay overnight in cities hours away costing them hundreds of dollars in excess of the price of the ticket. But, even going by your logic, there are the same number of shows in these regions on the first leg of Vertigo as their were on the first leg of Elevation, yet there are no slow sellouts as there were in a few places on the first leg of the Elevation tour.

The band has yet to announce what venues and how many shows they will be playing for the third leg, but we'll go ahead and hold you to your 1.1 to 1.2 million figure. If they only play to that many people because they only book 28 shows on the first leg and 35 to 40 in Arena's on the second leg, then they would have seriously underbooked the tour and left hundreds of thousands of fans in the dust without tickets. This has already happened for the first leg of the tour where most fans I know don't have tickets despite all their efforts.


"The evidence lies in the European leg's underbooking in 2001."

Do you think Dublin was underbooked in 2001? Why did the Croke Park shows sellout twice as fast as the Slane Castle shows?

The band are selling out in Europe everywhere, in stadiums, at 90 dollars a pop. All the shows so far have soldout the day of the sale. This is the most impressive start to a general on sale for U2 in Europe ever and the industry experts have noted this.




"I know what you said and you're wrong on both accounts."

If you know what I said then why won't you show me where I said it?


"But to respond to your above post, the North American legs of the PopMart sold 1.65 Million tickets. The North American legs of this tour will sell 1.1-1.2 Million tickets. If they would've scheduled the Elevation tour like you say above, then it wouldn't really have been that much higher than the PopMart tour North American attendance."

If they had done a stadium tour on Elevation at POPMART prices, you could expect there to be an average of 50% higher attendence per stadium in nearly every market. Only 28 dates for the first leg of the vertigo tour are known, the rest is not and attendence will depend on the size of venue played, plus the number of shows. So far, the vast majority of U2 fans that want to see this tour do not have tickets!



"LOL. Yes they do."

Really, so how much did the Promoter in Dublin get payed for saying U2 could do a week of shows at Croke Park?


"Ahh, fantasy land seems like a nice place. Let us know when you return."

Let us know when you can accept a difference of opinion without making childish comments.




"You're delusional. Pink Floyd have higher record sales, higher concert attendances (in just about every market) - with higher average prices and higher back catalog sales than U2. And always have and always will. I've already gone over this 18 million times in explicit detail. You obviously see only what you want to see.. Oh and btw, there were many shows on the Division Bell tour that had three tier prices, not two..."


Amusement Business reports the range of ticket prices for each show, and most of them only had two. The majority of tickets sold for that tour in North America were soldout at the 22.50 or 25 dollar ticket price, a price that was less than what they charged in 1987 once inflation is counted in.

The only tour where they have confirmed higher attendance levels is the North American Division Bell tour where the hard to sell tickets towards the back of the stadium had very low ticket prices.

Its been over 25 years since Pink Floyd had an album sell at the rate of ATYCLB or HTDAATB in its first year or two of release.

Its confirmed that Pink Floyd have sold more albums in the United States over their long career which started in 1967 than U2. But go outside the United States and its a different story. Confirmed audits by the Canadian CRIA show that U2 have sold over 6,900,000 albums in Canada while Pink Floyd's confirmed album sales total is 6,400,000.

Lets go to the BPI in the United Kingdom. Here in Pink Floyd's own country, the Pink men have sold just 4,520,000 copies compared to U2's total of 11,000,000+!

Yes, thats just two countries, but can't you name any country outside of the United States where its been confirmed by an industry audit that Pink Floyd has sold more albums than U2 in that particular country? Please, don't tell me about what the label claims, show me a confirmed audit!

Based on their last two studio albums, Pink Floyd sales roughly about half of what U2 has been selling(during the initial One to two year promotion phase) with its two most recent studio releases.




"Once again, Pink Floyd's ticket prices have increased at least 70% (slightly less elsewhere) in North America every single tour since 1977 and their attendances have never decreased (apart from Cleveland and Chicago). Virtually no one else can claim this. U2 can only claim this for 12 markets in North America and all of Europe recently. Floyd could charge 100% higher ticket prices (or more possibly) in Europe (and elsewhere) than compared to 1994, since they haven't toured in over 10 years and none of their attendances from the Division Bell tour would be affected by it, plus their growth rate since then. That 100% increase in ticket price btw would at least be $70."


Well, I don't know what Pink Floyd charged for a ticket in 1977, but I do know that a 20 dollar Pink Floyd ticket in 1987 would only be worth $10.36 in 1977. If the 1987 tour was a 70% increase in price over the 1977 tour, then that would mean Pink Floyd only charged $6 dollars on their 1977 tour. For comparison, U2 charged more than that on average on their OCTOBER tour in 1981 that had an average price of $6.50.


How well attended any new hypothetical Pink Floyd tour would be, would depend more on just the price of tickets. Adjusted for inflation, those $22.50 tickets that were the majority of tickets sold on the Division Bell tour would only be $29 dollars today. I would agree that if Pink Floyd priced a new tour the same way, only increasing for inflation, that they would indeed sell as many tickets and probably more, since any new Pink Floyd tour would be seen as the "Final Tour".




"Also, HTDAAB hasn't sold 8.5 Million copies to costumers. It's sold 6.5 Million copies to customers to date. Stop fudging the facts. The 8.5 Million is to retailers..."

HTDAAB has sold 8.5 million copies worldwide regardless of who has purchased it. Thats a fact.

 

[NoControl]

Originally posted by STING2 Any I have what?

You're unbelievable.

Originally posted by STING2 Any economist will tell you that its a fact that less people are willing to do a certain activity if the price of doing it jumps to 3 to 4 times of what it normally is. This is the case when fans spend money to travel and stay overnight in another town just to see a two hour concert. If you want to ignore that fact, ok.

But that's not the argument.

Originally posted by STING2 The fact is, the shows all soldout very quickly leaving fans without tickets. That is not what you predicted.

Ticket brokers/scalpers have up to 50% of the house. You consistently ignore that. No surprise there.

Originally posted by STING2 No, the band new going into the ATYCLB/Elevation promotion faze that nothing was for sure. They could do a stadium tour, at POPMART prices plus inlfation and end with results that were better, worse, or the same than POPMART. Given the circumstance, they decided to play it safe and moved the tour indoors and priced it accordingly.

But they didn't play Stadiums because they weren't sure how the tour would do beforehand.

Originally posted by STING2 Maybe x show sold out at a rate that was 5.5 minutes longer than the first show. When these second shows suddenly go on sale, its not immediately evident to everyone seeking tickets. The fact is, first and second shows soldout in minutes leaving fans without tickets.

Ticket brokers/scalpers have up to 50% of the house. You consistently ignore that. No surprise there.

Originally posted by STING2 On the first leg of the Elevation tour, the band scheduled 16 shows west of the Mississippi River. On the first leg of the Vertigo tour, there are, you guessed it, 16 shows west of the Mississippi River. I don't buy into this theory that all the fans in Portland or Edmonton travel and stay overnight in cities hours away costing them hundreds of dollars in excess of the price of the ticket. But, even going by your logic, there are the same number of shows in these regions on the first leg of Vertigo as their were on the first leg of Elevation, yet there are no slow sellouts as there were in a few places on the first leg of the Elevation tour.

What? But the 16 shows on the Elevation tour were scheduled in markets that were closer together and concentrated primarily on their major markets and covered most of the US' major markets. This tour is completely scheduled differently, with the makets being a lot more sparse on the first leg. You know that.

Originally posted by STING2 The band has yet to announce what venues and how many shows they will be playing for the third leg, but we'll go ahead and hold you to your 1.1 to 1.2 million figure. If they only play to that many people because they only book 28 shows on the first leg and 35 to 40 in Arena's on the second leg, then they would have seriously underbooked the tour and left hundreds of thousands of fans in the dust without tickets. This has already happened for the first leg of the tour where most fans I know don't have tickets despite all their efforts.

BS. The play where demand is prevalent. Your argument could be applied to any artist if they missed certain markets. Every artist doesn't play every market in one country every tour. Give me a break.

Originally posted by STING2 Do you think Dublin was underbooked in 2001? Why did the Croke Park shows sellout twice as fast as the Slane Castle shows?

Ticket brokers/scalpers have up to 50% of the house. You consistently ignore that. No surprise there. And yes, in 2001 Dublin was underbooked.

Originally posted by STING2 The band are selling out in Europe everywhere, in stadiums, at 90 dollars a pop. All the shows so far have soldout the day of the sale. This is the most impressive start to a general on sale for U2 in Europe ever and the industry experts have noted this.

I agree for the most part, it's impressive. But in North America, it's completely different story...

Originally posted by STING2 If you know what I said then why won't you show me where I said it?

Don't give me that BS. I'm not going through your entire post history just to find one quote. You're full of it.

Originally posted by STING2 If they had done a stadium tour on Elevation at POPMART prices, you could expect there to be an average of 50% higher attendence per stadium in nearly every market. Only 28 dates for the first leg of the vertigo tour are known, the rest is not and attendence will depend on the size of venue played, plus the number of shows. So far, the vast majority of U2 fans that want to see this tour do not have tickets!

In North America? If so, you're way off. I've already showed you the numbers. And if that was true, then they would've done a Stadium tour here this year.

Originally posted by STING2 Really, so how much did the Promoter in Dublin get payed for saying U2 could do a week of shows at Croke Park?

Why don't you ask him?

Originally posted by STING2 Let us know when you can accept a difference of opinion without making childish comments.

Let me know when you've come back from outer space.

Originally posted by STING2 Amusement Business reports the range of ticket prices for each show, and most of them only had two. The majority of tickets sold for that tour in North America were soldout at the 22.50 or 25 dollar ticket price, a price that was less than what they charged in 1987 once inflation is counted in.

Not true on both accounts.

Originally posted by STING2 The only tour where they have confirmed higher attendance levels is the North American Division Bell tour where the hard to sell tickets towards the back of the stadium had very low ticket prices.

Every single tour by Pink Floyd since U2 has been around has had higher attendance than any U2 tour. You can believe what you want to believe. I've shown you the numbers.

Originally posted by STING2 Its been over 25 years since Pink Floyd had an album sell at the rate of ATYCLB or HTDAATB in its first year or two of release.

A Momentary Lapse Of Reason & The Division Bell have both at least sold 7-8 Million copies worldwide ( Division Bell's 16 country total at last count was over 7 Million...and we both know how many countries there are in the world) and might have reached 9-10 Million, I just can't prove it. And in the end is what counts, not how fast an album sells initially. And HTDAAB will not surpass AYCLB's overall worldwide sales of 10.8 Million (as of January 2005).

Originally posted by STING2 Its confirmed that Pink Floyd have sold more albums in the United States over their long career which started in 1967 than U2. But go outside the United States and its a different story. Confirmed audits by the Canadian CRIA show that U2 have sold over 6,900,000 albums in Canada while Pink Floyd's confirmed album sales total is 6,400,000.

That's not true.

Pink Floyd's Canadian sales:

The Dark Side Of The Moon - 2 Million (at least)
The Wall - 2 Million (at least)
Wish You Were Here - 700,000 (at least)
Echoes...The Best Of - 600,000 (at least)
The Division Bell - 500,000 (at least)
A Momentary Lapse Of Reason - 300,000 (at least)
Pulse - 300,000 (at least)
Animals - 200,000 (at least)
Delicate Sound Of Thunder - 200,000 (at least)

...and that's even including their other 13 releases.

Originally posted by STING2 Lets go to the BPI in the United Kingdom. Here in Pink Floyd's own country, the Pink men have sold just 4,520,000 copies compared to U2's total of 11,000,000+!

Floyd's certifications in the UK haven't been updated in years...

Originally posted by STING2 Yes, thats just two countries, but can't you name any country outside of the United States where its been confirmed by an industry audit that Pink Floyd has sold more albums than U2 in that particular country? Please, don't tell me about what the label claims, show me a confirmed audit!

This comment right here shows that you know virtually nothing about the music industry.

Originally posted by STING2 Based on their last two studio albums, Pink Floyd sales roughly about half of what U2 has been selling(during the initial One to two year promotion phase) with its two most recent studio releases.

LOL. Your math skills are quite amusing.

Originally posted by STING2 Well, I don't know what Pink Floyd charged for a ticket in 1977, but I do know that a 20 dollar Pink Floyd ticket in 1987 would only be worth $10.36 in 1977. If the 1987 tour was a 70% increase in price over the 1977 tour, then that would mean Pink Floyd only charged $6 dollars on their 1977 tour. For comparison, U2 charged more than that on average on their OCTOBER tour in 1981 that had an average price of $6.50.

Floyd's '87 tour was a 100% ticket price increase from their 1977 tour.

Originally posted by STING2 How well attended any new hypothetical Pink Floyd tour would be, would depend more on just the price of tickets. Adjusted for inflation, those $22.50 tickets that were the majority of tickets sold on the Division Bell tour would only be $29 dollars today. I would agree that if Pink Floyd priced a new tour the same way, only increasing for inflation, that they would indeed sell as many tickets and probably more, since any new Pink Floyd tour would be seen as the "Final Tour".

But the $22.50 priced tickets weren't the majority of the tickets on sale at each show. Primarily, they had three tier prices in 1994. Basically between either $75/35/25 or $60/35/22.50 for North America. In Europe, Floyd's prices for their Austrian, English, German, French, Switzerland, Swedish, Netherlands, etc., shows were between $34-46.50 American. The only show that was under that to my knowledge was in Prague, where the played to 130,000 people at an average of $31.00 American.

Originally posted by STING2 HTDAAB has sold 8.5 million copies worldwide regardless of who has purchased it. Thats a fact. [/B]

It's a fact that only 6.5 Million fans have bought HTDAAB so far.

 

[STING2]

No Control,



"You're unbelievable."
"Let me know when you've come back from outer space."
"BS"
"You don't have a clue what you're talking about."
"Duh!"
"Shit, do I have to spell it out for you?"
"And when you do, make sure you're not foaming at the mouth, will ya?"
"Would you say that you're hopeless?"
"Would you say that if a sense of humour came up behind you and bit you in the ass, would you know it was there?"
"You're like a xerox machine."
"It's wrong. Duh!"
"Don't give me that BS. I'm not going through your entire post history just to find one quote. You're full of it."


Do you have anymore relevant comments like the ones above?




"But that's not the argument."

Its precisely the arguement. Most fans in Calgary/Edmonton or anywhere else for that matter are not going to pay travel expenses and an overnight stay in order to see a two hour concert.




"Ticket brokers/scalpers have up to 50% of the house. You consistently ignore that. No surprise there."

I know they have tickets, but can you prove they have up to 50% of the house? Also, why is it they have so many tickets for this particular tour? The fact is, the shows have soldout in record time regardless of who purchased the ticket. The fact that Ticket brokers and scalpers have so many tickets just proves my point about how great the demand for this tour is. The brokers and scalpers go for tickets they know they can make money on.



"But they didn't play Stadiums because they weren't sure how the tour would do beforehand."

On Elevation, thats true. Maybe there is a little nugget we can agree on.




"Ticket brokers/scalpers have up to 50% of the house. You consistently ignore that. No surprise there."



I know they have tickets, but can you prove they have up to 50% of the house? Also, why is it they have so many tickets for this particular tour? The fact is, the shows have soldout in record time regardless of who purchased the ticket. The fact that Ticket brokers and scalpers have so many tickets just proves my point about how great the demand for this tour is. The brokers and scalpers go for tickets they know they can make money on.




"What? But the 16 shows on the Elevation tour were scheduled in markets that were closer together and concentrated primarily on their major markets and covered most of the US' major markets. This tour is completely scheduled differently, with the makets being a lot more sparse on the first leg. You know that."

West of the Mississippi River, the only difference in cities played between Vertigo 1st Leg and Elevation 1st Leg is that there were no single shows in Dallas, Houston, Portland and Minneapolis + two shows in Calgary. Dallas, Houston and Minneapolis are not going to have any impact on shows in Phoenix or Denver. Edmonton/Calgary is not going to effect Seattle/Vancouver. The only city that could have any measurable impact on Seattle/Vancouver is Portland. But given the speed of the sellouts, the band would have no problem in selling out a show in Portland in minutes or adding third shows to both Seattle and Vancouver.




"BS. The play where demand is prevalent. Your argument could be applied to any artist if they missed certain markets. Every artist doesn't play every market in one country every tour. Give me a break."

If the band only book a similar number of shows on the third leg as they did for the first leg in Arena's, most people who want to see the band are going to get shutout of seeing the show, just as has happened already for this first leg. The fact that everyone I know who tried their best to get tickets the second they went on sale and failed to obtain any is a fact, not BS.


"Ticket brokers/scalpers have up to 50% of the house. You consistently ignore that. No surprise there. And yes, in 2001 Dublin was underbooked."


I know they have tickets, but can you prove they have up to 50% of the house? Also, why is it they have so many tickets for this particular tour? The fact is, the shows have soldout in record time regardless of who purchased the ticket. The fact that Ticket brokers and scalpers have so many tickets just proves my point about how great the demand for this tour is. The brokers and scalpers go for tickets they know they can make money on.


"I agree for the most part, it's impressive. But in North America, it's completely different story..."


Lets see, every show that has gone on sale has soldout quickly in both North America and Europe. With the exception of the size of venue being played, nothing is different. Most fans in North America who want to see the band have been unable to obtain tickets for the first leg. Its the first time ever that hardcore fans attempting to buy tickets the second they went on sale in the USA, have mostly come up empty handed.





"In North America? If so, you're way off. I've already showed you the numbers. And if that was true, then they would've done a Stadium tour here this year."

Not way off at all because the Stadium tour did not happen so any attempt to say what would have happened is simply an estimate. I know what the numbers are for POPMART and Elevation and based on those numbers I think the band could have done a Stadium tour in 2001 at $55 a ticket that would have had an attendence level for most dates in the USA that was 50% higher than what they had for POPMART. Realize though that a 50% higher demand over POPMART is still well below ZOO TV levels of demand. The increased demand for U2 in 2001 came from the success of ATYCLB. After 4 years that had cooled off to a certain degree putting a certain level of uncertainty again about whether they could put on a stadium shows. As that is, I don't think they would go back to stadiums with just an increase in demand of 50% over POPMART, I think they would prefer a level of demand closer to what ZOO TV had. BUT, the sales of the new album over the past 11 weeks and the rapid sellouts of the first 28 shows, (no shows crawling to sellouts) leads me to believe that there is enough demand again to do a stadium tour at POPMART prices adjusted for inflation.



"Why don't you ask him?"


Your the one that claims they were paid, its incumbent upon you to prove it.




"Not true on both accounts."

Amusement Business list the ticket prices for each show. If its a range from 22.50 - 60, then that is clearly noted. The majority of shows only list two prices.

Its a fact that tickets priced at 22.50 are less than what Pink Floyd charged 7 years earlier in 1987 once inflation is counted in.



"Every single tour by Pink Floyd since U2 has been around has had higher attendance than any U2 tour. You can believe what you want to believe. I've shown you the numbers."

Everyone knows the tour totals which are in fact irrelevant to this particular case because of the differences in price levels and lengths of tours. The only tour Pink Floyd did that had stronger attendance levels in most markets was the North American Division Bell tour, and that was because of the low ticket prices.



"A Momentary Lapse Of Reason & The Division Bell have both at least sold 7-8 Million copies worldwide ( Division Bell's 16 country total at last count was over 7 Million...and we both know how many countries there are in the world) and might have reached 9-10 Million, I just can't prove it. And in the end is what counts, not how fast an album sells initially. And HTDAAB will not surpass AYCLB's overall worldwide sales of 10.8 Million (as of January 2005)."

Its more like 6.5 million each for Pink Floyds last two studio efforts and 11-12 million for ATYCLB. A December issue of Billboard from 2001 reported that ATYCLB was at 10 million worldwide and that was when the album had just crossed the 3 million mark in the USA and had yet to hit the 4 million mark in Europe.

How much the album sells in the first two years of release is what is important to determining current popularity. Catalog sales are of less importance and is part of the reason why Billboard developed a seperate chart for catalog titles. Many album sales after the first two years are often to people who have already purchased the album and are buying it again because its been remixed, repackaged, or come out on some new format.




"That's not true."

"Pink Floyd's Canadian sales:"

"The Dark Side Of The Moon - 2 Million (at least)"
"The Wall - 2 Million (at least)"
"Wish You Were Here - 700,000 (at least)"
"Echoes...The Best Of - 600,000 (at least)"
"The Division Bell - 500,000 (at least)"
"A Momentary Lapse Of Reason - 300,000 (at least)"
"Pulse - 300,000 (at least)"
"Animals - 200,000 (at least)"
"Delicate Sound Of Thunder - 200,000 (at least)"

"...and that's even including their other 13 releases."


The CRIA database shows that "Wish You Were Here" is at 300,000 NOT 700,000!

Echoes is a double CD which gets counted twice, so its sales are really 300,000.

The Division Bell is at 400,000 NOT 500,000!

Check the CRIA database, its all there!

Its true that some titles have not been certified in a while or at all, but there are many U2 titles that have not been certified in a while or at all as well!

The FACT is, when you count up the numbers on the website, U2 comes in at 6,900,000! Thats 800,000 more than Floyds total of 6,100,000!

Anyone that wants to check this database can find it at www.cria.ca .


In addition, while it took both Dark Side of the Moon and The WALL album both nearly a decade to hit diamond status, it only took the Joshua Tree 6 months to do that.




"Floyd's certifications in the UK haven't been updated in years..."

Many of U2's certifcations have not been updated in years either.

Pink Floyds biggest seller, Dark Side of the Moon was only slightly ahead of Joshua Tree in 1993 with Dark Side coming in at 7 times platinum and Joshua Tree at 6 times platinum, despite the fact that Dark Side.... was released 14 years before the Joshua Tree and well before Compact Disc were invented which would later no doubt help to inflate sales as fans replaced their records and tapes with CD's.


U2's sales in the United Kingdom: 11,000,000+

Pink Floyd's sales in their homeland UK: 4,520,000


This can all be found at www.bpi.co.uk




"This comment right here shows that you know virtually nothing about the music industry."

Your comment shows that you have no evidence to support your global album sales figures for Pink Floyd. We have two countries outside the United States where Pink Floyd have not sold as many albums as U2 and where they have actually been blown away in their own country in terms of sales by U2. If Canada and the United Kingdom are representive of Pink Floyds sales in most other countries outside the USA, then its safe to say that outside the USA, U2 have sold more albums than Pink Floyd over the length of its career.


"LOL. Your math skills are quite amusing."

When was the last time Pink Floyd sold over 7 million copies of a brand new studio album within the first two years of release?



"Floyd's '87 tour was a 100% ticket price increase from their 1977 tour"


How much did Floyd charge are their 1977 tour? Once again, counting for inflation, Pink Floyd's $20 price in 1987 would only be $10.36 in 1977. If Pink Floyd's ticket prices increased by 100% counting for inflation, then that would mean Pink Floyd only charged $5.18 a ticket in 1977. Adjusted for inflation, U2 charged nearly the same amount on their OCTOBER tour in 1981!





"It's a fact that only 6.5 Million fans have bought HTDAAB so far."


Its a fact that HTDAAB has sold over 8.5 million copies so far! Its only a matter of time before the consumer figure catches up with the retail figure, but I'm sure you'll have a new comment when that happens as well.

 

[NoControl]

Do you have anymore relevant comments like the ones above?

Do you?

Originally posted by STING2 Its precisely the arguement. Most fans in Calgary/Edmonton or anywhere else for that matter are not going to pay travel expenses and an overnight stay in order to see a two hour concert.

No, it's not. I'm showing you that because they haven't played in any other Canadian market yet, that thousands of U2 fans are traveling here for both shows. And only Toronto & Montreal fans know for sure they're coming in the Fall. No other Canadian city knows that they even are coming to their towns, even if it turns out to be true.

Originally posted by STING2 I know they have tickets, but can you prove they have up to 50% of the house? Also, why is it they have so many tickets for this particular tour? The fact is, the shows have soldout in record time regardless of who purchased the ticket. The fact that Ticket brokers and scalpers have so many tickets just proves my point about how great the demand for this tour is. The brokers and scalpers go for tickets they know they can make money on.

I've already showed you links, etc., regarding this. Oh and btw, my g/f used to work for ticketbastard. And at 9:25am on the morning that tickets went on sale for U2's show here in 2001, her boss printed up 200 tickets for "secret" deals with a ticket broker agency here in town a full five minutes before they even went on sale. She then went up to her boss and told her to fuck off. It's no surprise she was fired very shortly thereafter. And this is only one example of one ticketbastard boss, in one ticketbastard center, in one city and there's plenty more...

Originally posted by STING2 West of the Mississippi River, the only difference in cities played between Vertigo 1st Leg and Elevation 1st Leg is that there were no single shows in Dallas, Houston, Portland and Minneapolis + two shows in Calgary. Dallas, Houston and Minneapolis are not going to have any impact on shows in Phoenix or Denver. Edmonton/Calgary is not going to effect Seattle/Vancouver. The only city that could have any measurable impact on Seattle/Vancouver is Portland. But given the speed of the sellouts, the band would have no problem in selling out a show in Portland in minutes or adding third shows to both Seattle and Vancouver.

What the fuck are you talking about? What about Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Columbus, Cleveland, Buffalo, Lexington, Pittsburgh, Hartford and Albany. And Dallas & Houston also had shows on the first leg of the Elevation tour as well. And once again, there are thousands of Albertans, other Canadian fans from many other provinces here, plus even some Americans coming to the Vancouver shows...

Originally posted by STING2 If the band only book a similar number of shows on the third leg as they did for the first leg in Arena's, most people who want to see the band are going to get shutout of seeing the show, just as has happened already for this first leg. The fact that everyone I know who tried their best to get tickets the second they went on sale and failed to obtain any is a fact, not BS.

What are you on about now? Both tours are scheduled very differently. And that effects things.

Originally posted by STING2 Lets see, every show that has gone on sale has soldout quickly in both North America and Europe. With the exception of the size of venue being played, nothing is different. Most fans in North America who want to see the band have been unable to obtain tickets for the first leg. Its the first time ever that hardcore fans attempting to buy tickets the second they went on sale in the USA, have mostly come up empty handed.

Not true.

Originally posted by STING2 Not way off at all because the Stadium tour did not happen so any attempt to say what would have happened is simply an estimate. I know what the numbers are for POPMART and Elevation and based on those numbers I think the band could have done a Stadium tour in 2001 at $55 a ticket that would have had an attendence level for most dates in the USA that was 50% higher than what they had for POPMART. Realize though that a 50% higher demand over POPMART is still well below ZOO TV levels of demand. The increased demand for U2 in 2001 came from the success of ATYCLB. After 4 years that had cooled off to a certain degree putting a certain level of uncertainty again about whether they could put on a stadium shows. As that is, I don't think they would go back to stadiums with just an increase in demand of 50% over POPMART, I think they would prefer a level of demand closer to what ZOO TV had. BUT, the sales of the new album over the past 11 weeks and the rapid sellouts of the first 28 shows, (no shows crawling to sellouts) leads me to believe that there is enough demand again to do a stadium tour at POPMART prices adjusted for inflation.

Again, are you talking about North America? Because if you are, 50% higher would be 2.5 Million tickets sold for North America on one tour, since Popmart's North American attendance was 1.65 Million. And we both know that U2 will never sell that many tickets here with one tour...and they never have.

Originally posted by STING2 Your the one that claims they were paid, its incumbent upon you to prove it.

Give me a break. If I actually asked a concert promoter how much he made, he would laugh in my face because it's none of my business.

Originally posted by STING2 Amusement Business list the ticket prices for each show. If its a range from 22.50 - 60, then that is clearly noted. The majority of shows only list two prices.

Well, your info is wrong.

Originally posted by STING2 Its a fact that tickets priced at 22.50 are less than what Pink Floyd charged 7 years earlier in 1987 once inflation is counted in.

Not really. It's about that same actually with that particular tier pricing in 1994 for some North American markets. The $22.50 price weren't the majority of tickets sold for the tour and the The Division Bell tour's prices were primarily three tier in North America ($75-$22) and one price for Europe (between $34-46.50 American for almost all of the shows), to my knowledge.

Originally posted by STING2 Everyone knows the tour totals which are in fact irrelevant to this particular case because of the differences in price levels and lengths of tours. The only tour Pink Floyd did that had stronger attendance levels in most markets was the North American Division Bell tour, and that was because of the low ticket prices.

I've shown you the numbers regarding, minus return engagements, ticket prices, attendances in relation to each other. I'm going to post them for the fourth time in my next post in this thread, ok. Everyone reading, take a deeeeeeeep breaaaaaaaaath.

Originally posted by STING2 Its more like 6.5 million each for Pink Floyds last two studio efforts and 11-12 million for ATYCLB. A December issue of Billboard from 2001 reported that ATYCLB was at 10 million worldwide and that was when the album had just crossed the 3 million mark in the USA and had yet to hit the 4 million mark in Europe.

A Momentary Lapse Of Reason & The Division Bell have at least sold 7-8 Million copies worldwide ( Division Bell's 16 country total at last count was over 7 Million...and we both know how many countries there are in the world) and might have reached 9-10 Million, I just can't prove it. And in the end is what counts, not how fast an album sells intially. And HTDAAB will not surpass AYCLB's overall worldwide sales of 10.8 Million (as of January 2005).

Originally posted by STING2 How much the album sells in the first two years of release is what is important to determining current popularity.

According to you.

Originally posted by STING2 Catalog sales are of less importance and is part of the reason why Billboard developed a seperate chart for catalog titles. Many album sales after the first two years are often to people who have already purchased the album and are buying it again because its been remixed, repackaged, or come out on some new format.

BS. You're only saying that because U2's catalog sales pale in comparison to Floyd's.

Originally posted by STING2 The CRIA database shows that "Wish You Were Here" is at 300,000 NOT 700,000!

Wish You Were Here has sold at least 700,000 in Canada to date. That 300,000 copies certification was in 1979! But of course, you conveniently didn't mention that.

Originally posted by STING2 Echoes is a double CD which gets counted twice, so its sales are really 300,000.

You said yourself that the CRIA doesn't count double albums as two unit sales but as one. So, now they do as of the past few weeks? Or are you lying...because there's a thread a few weeks back where you said that they didn't?

Originally posted by STING2 The Division Bell is at 400,000 NOT 500,000!

That 400,000 copies certification was 11 years ago!

Originally posted by STING2 Its true that some titles have not been certified in a while or at all, but there are many U2 titles that have not been certified in a while or at all as well!

U2's back catalog doesn't sell shit compared to what they should sell with the amount of albums they've sold overall and hence there wouldn't be more than one or two albums, or even less than that that need to be updated in certifications.

Originally posted by STING2 The FACT is, when you count up the numbers on the website, U2 comes in at 6,900,000! Thats 800,000 more than Floyds total of 6,100,000!

Wrong again.

Originally posted by STING2 In addition, while it took both Dark Side of the Moon and The WALL album both nearly a decade to hit diamond status, it only took the Joshua Tree 6 months to do that.

So what?

Originally posted by STING2 Many of U2's certifcations have not been updated in years either.

Because their back catalog doesn't sell shit.

Originally posted by STING2 Pink Floyds biggest seller, Dark Side of the Moon was only slightly ahead of Joshua Tree in 1993 with Dark Side coming in at 7 times platinum and Joshua Tree at 6 times platinum, despite the fact that Dark Side.... was released 14 years before the Joshua Tree and well before Compact Disc were invented which would later no doubt help to inflate sales as fans replaced their records and tapes with CD's.

Nice try, but you could use that argument for anyone who started releasing albums, pre 1990...including U2. And The Dark Side Of The Moon sells over 100,000 copies in the UK annually. It's at over 11x Platinum (3.3 Million) to date in the UK. Far ahead of the The Joshua Tree...it just hasn't been certified yet.

Originally posted by STING2 U2's sales in the United Kingdom: 11,000,000+

Pink Floyd's sales in their homeland UK: 4,520,000

You're battin' a thousand...again.

Originally posted by STING2 Your comment shows that you have no evidence to support your global album sales figures for Pink Floyd. We have two countries outside the United States where Pink Floyd have not sold as many albums as U2 and where they have actually been blown away in their own country in terms of sales by U2. If Canada and the United Kingdom are representive of Pink Floyds sales in most other countries outside the USA, then its safe to say that outside the USA, U2 have sold more albums than Pink Floyd over the length of its career.

Then you obviously don't know how to read then.

Originally posted by STING2 When was the last time Pink Floyd sold over 7 million copies of a brand new studio album within the first two years of release?

When was the last time U2 sold 200 Million albums, or had concert attendances increase in just about every market on earth, even though their ticket prices increased (apart from Europe this year and 12 North American markets for U2)? And when was the last time U2 had one of the five biggest selling albums of all time, etc., etc.???

Answer: never.

Originally posted by STING2 How much did Floyd charge are their 1977 tour? Once again, counting for inflation, Pink Floyd's $20 price in 1987 would only be $10.36 in 1977. If Pink Floyd's ticket prices increased by 100% counting for inflation, then that would mean Pink Floyd only charged $5.18 a ticket in 1977. Adjusted for inflation, U2 charged nearly the same amount on their OCTOBER tour in 1981!

I already told you that! It was a 100% increase in North America from 1977 to 1987. $10 + 100% = $20.00! Duh!

Originally posted by STING2 Its a fact that HTDAAB has sold over 8.5 million copies so far! Its only a matter of time before the consumer figure catches up with the retail figure, but I'm sure you'll have a new comment when that happens as well. [/B]

It's a fact that only 6.5 Million fans have bought this album to date. Stop fudging the facts.


You're totally impossible, you know that?

 

[NoControl]

Album sales:

Pink Floyd - 200 Million (22 releases)
U2 - 135 Million (17 releases)

Concert Attendance:

Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse Of Reason tour '87-'88-'89...5.5 Million tickets sold (4.7 Million minus return)
Average price: $21.68 worldwide & $20.00 in North America

U2 - The Joshua Tree & Lovetown tours '87 & '89...3.5 Million tickets sold (3 Million minus return)
Average price: $17.30 (slightly more in '89 due to inflation)

Pink Floyd - The Division Bell tour '94...5.4 Million tickets sold (only performed on two continents)
Average price: $34.50 & at least the same on the European leg

U2 - ZOO TV tour '92-'93...5.4 Million tickets sold (4.5 Million minus the return)
Average price: $30.00 & $28.25 in North America

Back Catalog Sales (annually):

Pink Floyd - 4 Million (2 Million in the US)
U2 - 1-1.5 Million (750,000-1 Million in the US)

Every time Pink Floyd have toured since 1977, their ticket prices have increased at least 70% in the US (and a bit less elsewhere), while their attendances continue to increase in just about every market. Every time U2 & The Stones have toured since 1989 (The Stones) & 1992 (U2), their attendances have decreased with each ticket price increase in the vast majority of markets worldwide.

For the majority of tickets sold for the majority of Floyd's shows in '94, their ticket prices weren't $22.50. There were three tier prices for many shows, including...BC Place Stadium (2 shows...$75/37.50/25) in Vancouver and Giants Stadium (2 shows...$75/35/25) in NJ, to name a few.

A new Pink Floyd tour would break every record imaginable (apart from Springsteen's Giants Stadium record of 10 shows a few years ago).

Get A Clue...

 

[STING2]

No Control,


"No, it's not. I'm showing you that because they haven't played in any other Canadian market yet, that thousands of U2 fans are traveling here for both shows. And only Toronto & Montreal fans know for sure they're coming in the Fall. No other Canadian city knows that they even are coming to their towns, even if it turns out to be true."

Most fans, in any city, regardless of where it is, are not willing to pay the additional expenses involved with traveling to another city and staying overnight in that city to see a two hour concert. Thats simply a fact thats true for virtually any artist in the industry. Its basic economics.

You can see the number of people who have posted in the thread about Alberta fans going to Vancouver. While it certainly does not represent everyone from Alberta who is going to the show, if there were thousands of fans from Alberta going to each Vancouver show, there were would be far more posts than what we have seen.




"I've already showed you links, etc., regarding this. Oh and btw, my g/f used to work for ticketbastard. And at 9:25am on the morning that tickets went on sale for U2's show here in 2001, her boss printed up 200 tickets for "secret" deals with a ticket broker agency here in town a full five minutes before they even went on sale. She then went up to her boss and told her to fuck off. It's no surprise she was fired very shortly thereafter. And this is only one example of one ticketbastard boss, in one ticketbastard center, in one city and there's plenty more..."


The only thing this tells us is that this situation existed on the Elevation tour and there for does not explain the rapid sellouts in the softer markets for this tour. In addition, why do you think scalpers and others are going after U2 tickets like this? This is just another reflection of the strong demand to see U2.





"What the fuck are you talking about? What about Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Columbus, Cleveland, Buffalo, Lexington, Pittsburgh, Hartford and Albany. And Dallas & Houston also had shows on the first leg of the Elevation tour as well. And once again, there are thousands of Albertans, other Canadian fans from many other provinces here, plus even some Americans coming to the Vancouver shows..."


Well, in case you don't know your geography, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Columbus, Cleveland, Buffalo, Lexington, Pittsburgh, Hartford, and Albany, ARE ALL EAST OF THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER! Cities east of the Mississippi River are not going to have any impact on ticket sales anywhere on the west coast. People in these cities willing to travel would try for Chicago and New York shows, and any event would be to small in number to impact even shows in those cities.

If you read my first post about this, you'll see I did mention the fact that Dallas & Houston, west of the Mississippi River, were not played this 1st leg like they had been on Elevation. But the first place any of these hardcore fans willing to travel/overnight stay would go to would be Denver or Phoenix, not Vancouver or Seattle. In any event, their numbers are to small to really impact sales in Denver or Phoenix.




"Not true."


Nope, it is true that:


every show that has gone on sale has soldout quickly in both North America and Europe. With the exception of the size of venue being played, nothing is different. Most fans in North America who want to see the band have been unable to obtain tickets for the first leg. Its the first time ever that hardcore fans attempting to buy tickets the second they went on sale in the USA, have mostly come up empty handed.







"Again, are you talking about North America? Because if you are, 50% higher would be 2.5 Million tickets sold for North America on one tour, since Popmart's North American attendance was 1.65 Million. And we both know that U2 will never sell that many tickets here with one tour...and they never have."


Part of the reason you don't seem to understand what I'm talking about is that your glued to this idea that the tour end total attendance for any particular tour is the maximum number of people the band or artist could play to, and that is simply is not true. When I say roughly a 50% increase in demand from POPMART to Elevation at POPMART prices, I'm saying that if the band had played a Denver Stadium show towards the end of the tour on Elevation at $55 dollars a ticket, instead of the two arena shows that were done there on the two seperate legs, they could have played to about 40,000 people, nearly a 50% increase from the 28,000 people they played to at Mile High Stadium on POPMART.

Simply looking at the total attendance and Gross totals is not an accurate way to look it. Looking at the individual markets is the only accurate way to estimate this.




"Not really. It's about that same actually with that particular tier pricing in 1994 for some North American markets. The $22.50 price weren't the majority of tickets sold for the tour and the The Division Bell tour's prices were primarily three tier in North America ($75-$22) and one price for Europe (between $34-46.50 American for almost all of the shows), to my knowledge."


FACT: $22.50 in 1994 is the equivalent of $17.09 in 1987. The price for these particular tickets is LESS than what Pink Floyd charged for any show in 1987!





"I've shown you the numbers regarding, minus return engagements, ticket prices, attendances in relation to each other. I'm going to post them for the fourth time in my next post in this thread, ok. Everyone reading, take a deeeeeeeep breaaaaaaaaath."

Your numbers regarding "minus return engagements" are your estimates. I and most other people know the ticket prices and attendence figures long before you ever started posting in this forum.




"A Momentary Lapse Of Reason & The Division Bell have at least sold 7-8 Million copies worldwide ( Division Bell's 16 country total at last count was over 7 Million...and we both know how many countries there are in the world) and might have reached 9-10 Million, I just can't prove it. And in the end is what counts, not how fast an album sells intially. And HTDAAB will not surpass AYCLB's overall worldwide sales of 10.8 Million (as of January 2005)."


Its more like 6.5 million each for Pink Floyds last two studio efforts and 11-12 million for ATYCLB. A December issue of Billboard from 2001 reported that ATYCLB was at 10 million worldwide and that was when the album had just crossed the 3 million mark in the USA and had yet to hit the 4 million mark in Europe. HTDAAB is way ahead of where ATYCLB was at this point and will surpass 10.8 million copies in total album sales worldwide!



"According to you."


According to industry sources like Billboard which created the catalog chart for titles that had been released 2 or more years ago, so the chart would not have to deal with the occasional pop up of these older titles into the top 200 and would better reflect what was currently popular especially with new and young bands getting their first shot to make the Billboard 200.




"BS. You're only saying that because U2's catalog sales pale in comparison to Floyd's."

Nope, current popularity is based on the artist latest album release and latest concert tour. Thats the industry standard. Pink Floyd's catalog sales for a few of its albums are impressive here in the United States, but in the United Kingdom U2 is WAY AHEAD of Pink Floyd in total album sales. U2 also has more weeks on the album chart in total than Pink Floyd.




"Wish You Were Here has sold at least 700,000 in Canada to date. That 300,000 copies certification was in 1979! But of course, you conveniently didn't mention that."


What I said was a FACT! According to the CRIA, "Whish You Were Here" has sold 300,000 copies in Canada! There is no certification for a new sales level. It has certainly sold more since 1979, but there is no estimate or figure that can be regarded as "FACT" including yours.




"You said yourself that the CRIA doesn't count double albums as two unit sales but as one. So, now they do as of the past few weeks? Or are you lying...because there's a thread a few weeks back where you said that they didn't?"

I said the IFPI does not count double albums! That is clearly explained on their website. I did not find a CRIA answer to this question, but in looking at some other double albums, it appears that their policy is the same as RIAA. If its not, it would mean that Echoes has sold 4 times as many copies in Canada as it has in the United States on a Per-Capita basis.



"That 400,000 copies certification was 11 years ago!"


Thats right. You can try and guess what the album has sold since then, but any figure you come up with is simply an estimate which could be very inaccurate. Its possible the album has not sold enough copies to be certified at 500,000 and its possible that it has sold more. Either way, the only thing that is FACT, is that the album is certified for 400,000 copies.




"U2's back catalog doesn't sell shit compared to what they should sell with the amount of albums they've sold overall and hence there wouldn't be more than one or two albums, or even less than that that need to be updated in certifications."

U2's back catalog routinely outsells Pink Floyds in their home country the United Kingdom. Most of Pink Floyd's older titles have not made the UK album chart since the 1980s or 1970s, while most of U2 albums have made it back into the UK album chart.

Right now in Canada, U2 has sold 6,900,000 copies to Pink Floyds 6,100,000. Those are the numbers from the CRIA. You can guess what this album has sold since all you want to, but these are the facts listed on CRIA and if CRIA decides to put a list of the top selling artist in the country up, U2 will rank ahead of Pink Floyd based on the current certifications.




"So what?"


An album that sales 1,000,000 copies in 6 months is far more impressive than an album that takes a decade to sale the same number of albums. An album that takes a decade or more to sell a million albums will l likely have much of its sales coming from people who already purchased the album for a variety of reasons to include, new formats or replacement of lost or damaged albums.


"Because their back catalog doesn't sell shit."

Their overall album sales are ahead of Pink Floyds in Canada and the United Kingdom and probably in most markets outside the United States. The United States is the only market in the world where we have CONFIRMED sales figures showing that Pink Floyd's catalog sales more than U2's.





"Nice try, but you could use that argument for anyone who started releasing albums, pre 1990...including U2. And The Dark Side Of The Moon sells over 100,000 copies in the UK annually. It's at over 11x Platinum (3.3 Million) to date in the UK. Far ahead of the The Joshua Tree...it just hasn't been certified yet."


If Dark Side Of the Moon sold over 100,000 copies every year in the United Kingdom, it would be on the UK album chart every single week! Its NOT not even close! In fact, Dark Side of The Moon only spent 30 weeks on the UK album chart in the 1980s and has not spent significantly more time on that chart since 1990. It does pop up in there every now and then, but after a decade of time, were talking dozens of weeks, not hundreds.

The Joshua Tree and Dark Side.... are much closer to each other in sales in the United Kingdom than they are on the USA. In 1993, Joshua Tree was at 6 times platinum while, Dark Side was at 7 times platinum, even though it had a 14 year headstart on Joshua Tree.

Most Pink Floyd albums in the United Kingdom have not returned to the album chart after their initial chart runs. Dark Side Of the Moon is the only Pink Floyd album to have significant chart activity in the UK and then were talking in terms of dozens of weeks per decade, not hundreds.

Most U2 albums have returned to the UK album chart after their initial chart runs. U2 has more weeks on the UK album chart in total than Pink Floyd and has sold over 11,000,000 copies in the United Kingdom compared to only 4,520,000 for Pink Floyd.





"You're battin' a thousand...again"


Go to BPI and count it yourself.

U2: 11,000,000

Pink Floyd: 4,520,000




"When was the last time U2 sold 200 Million albums, or had concert attendances increase in just about every market on earth, even though their ticket prices increased (apart from Europe this year and 12 North American markets for U2)? And when was the last time U2 had one of the five biggest selling albums of all time, etc., etc.???"


Pink Floyd have NOT sold 200 million albums worldwide! If you think they have, prove it! So far, there is no evidence that Pink Floyd has sold more albums than U2 in any country except the United States.

Pink Floyd had a concert attendence increase on their Division Bell tour over the AMLOR tour in North America because they had cheaper ticket prices for the hard to sell seats.





"I already told you that! It was a 100% increase in North America from 1977 to 1987. $10 + 100% = $20.00! Duh!"


If Pink Floyd charged $10 dollars for a ticket in 1977, that same ticket would be $19.30 in 1987 and exactly $20.00 in 1988 when adjusting for inflation.

AFTER 10 YEARS, PINK FLOYD charged the same amount of money for tickets on their 1987-1988 AMLOR tour as they did on their Animals Tour back in 1977. No real increase in price at all!




"It's a fact that only 6.5 Million fans have bought this album to date. Stop fudging the facts."




Its a fact that HTDAAB has sold over 8.5 million copies so far! Its only a matter of time before the consumer figure catches up with the retail figure, but I'm sure you'll have a new comment when that happens as well.









Now on to your misleading figures:


"Pink Floyd - 200 Million (22 releases)"

No evidence to support such a figure yet. Given their confirmed sales in the United Kingdom, United States and Canada, its highly unlikely Pink Floyd have sold 200 million. But hey, if you have accurate confirmed certifications that prove that, show us.




"Concert Attendance:"


Using the tour end totals for GROSS and ATTENDANCE is inaccurate because it does not take into account tours that were shorter or played smaller venues for reasons not having anything to do with the business. Only by comparing the individual markets in cases that are this close can one accurately compare demand for each artist.



"Back Catalog Sales (annually):"

Once again, there is not much evidence to support these figures either. U2 appears to sell more than Pink Floyd outside the United States. In the USA, Pink Floyd has one album that is always on the catalog chart and two others that show up from time to time.





"Every time Pink Floyd have toured since 1977, their ticket prices have increased at least 70% in the US (and a bit less elsewhere), while their attendances continue to increase in just about every market. Every time U2 & The Stones have toured since 1989 (The Stones) & 1992 (U2), their attendances have decreased with each ticket price increase in the vast majority of markets worldwide."


Totally FALSE! Adjusting for inflation, Pink Floyd charged the same price for tickets in 1987 as they did in 1977. Its interesting to note that Pink Floyd's $22.50 priced ticket on the Division Bell tour, was less than the price to see them for the Animals tour back in 1977, once the figures are adjusted for inflation!

 

[NoControl]

Originally posted by STING2 Your comment shows that you have no evidence to support your global album sales figures for Pink Floyd. We have two countries outside the United States where Pink Floyd have not sold as many albums as U2 and where they have actually been blown away in their own country in terms of sales by U2. If Canada and the United Kingdom are representive of Pink Floyds sales in most other countries outside the USA, then its safe to say that outside the USA, U2 have sold more albums than Pink Floyd over the length of its career.

Then you obviously don't know how to read.

Originally posted by STING2 Most fans, in any city, regardless of where it is, are not willing to pay the additional expenses involved with traveling to another city and staying overnight in that city to see a two hour concert. Thats simply a fact thats true for virtually any artist in the industry. Its basic economics.

According to you.

Originally posted by STING2 You can see the number of people who have posted in the thread about Alberta fans going to Vancouver. While it certainly does not represent everyone from Alberta who is going to the show, if there were thousands of fans from Alberta going to each Vancouver show, there were would be far more posts than what we have seen.

According to you.

Originally posted by STING2 The only thing this tells us is that this situation existed on the Elevation tour and there for does not explain the rapid sellouts in the softer markets for this tour. In addition, why do you think scalpers and others are going after U2 tickets like this? This is just another reflection of the strong demand to see U2.

LOL.

Originally posted by STING2 Well, in case you don't know your geography, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Columbus, Cleveland, Buffalo, Lexington, Pittsburgh, Hartford, and Albany, ARE ALL EAST OF THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER! Cities east of the Mississippi River are not going to have any impact on ticket sales anywhere on the west coast. People in these cities willing to travel would try for Chicago and New York shows, and any event would be to small in number to impact even shows in those cities.

If you read my first post about this, you'll see I did mention the fact that Dallas & Houston, west of the Mississippi River, were not played this 1st leg like they had been on Elevation. But the first place any of these hardcore fans willing to travel/overnight stay would go to would be Denver or Phoenix, not Vancouver or Seattle. In any event, their numbers are to small to really impact sales in Denver or Phoenix.

According to you they wouldn't have an effect. And that's my point.

Originally posted by STING2 Nope, it is true that:

According to you.

Originally posted by STING2 every show that has gone on sale has soldout quickly in both North America and Europe. With the exception of the size of venue being played, nothing is different. Most fans in North America who want to see the band have been unable to obtain tickets for the first leg. Its the first time ever that hardcore fans attempting to buy tickets the second they went on sale in the USA, have mostly come up empty handed.

And I've already answered why all the above happened. You just choose to ignore it.

Originally posted by STING2 Part of the reason you don't seem to understand what I'm talking about is that your glued to this idea that the tour end total attendance for any particular tour is the maximum number of people the band or artist could play to, and that is simply is not true. When I say roughly a 50% increase in demand from POPMART to Elevation at POPMART prices, I'm saying that if the band had played a Denver Stadium show towards the end of the tour on Elevation at $55 dollars a ticket, instead of the two arena shows that were done there on the two seperate legs, they could have played to about 40,000 people, nearly a 50% increase from the 28,000 people they played to at Mile High Stadium on POPMART.

Simply looking at the total attendance and Gross totals is not an accurate way to look it. Looking at the individual markets is the only accurate way to estimate this.

Yes it is an accurate way of looking at it. Because you initially said both whole tours in comparison to each other. Now, you're talking about individual markets. You're totally unbelievable. If you want to live in la la land and choose to ignore the facts, that's your problem.

Originally posted by STING2 FACT: $22.50 in 1994 is the equivalent of $17.09 in 1987. The price for these particular tickets is LESS than what Pink Floyd charged for any show in 1987!

So, you're saying that inflation rose 32% in seven years in the US? LOL And they weren't less for what Floyd charged where the tickets at those prices were located in the Stadiums & Arenas that Floyd performed in in 1987.

Originally posted by STING2 Your numbers regarding "minus return engagements" are your estimates. I and most other people know the ticket prices and attendence figures long before you ever started posting in this forum.

Even if they weren't my estimates regarding the returns, Floyd's prices/attendances would still be higher than U2's....and they are higher.

Originally posted by STING2 Its more like 6.5 million each for Pink Floyds last two studio efforts and 11-12 million for ATYCLB. A December issue of Billboard from 2001 reported that ATYCLB was at 10 million worldwide and that was when the album had just crossed the 3 million mark in the USA and had yet to hit the 4 million mark in Europe. HTDAAB is way ahead of where ATYCLB was at this point and will surpass 10.8 million copies in total album sales worldwide!

A Momentary Lapse Of Reason & The Division Bell have at least sold 7-8 Million copies worldwide (The Division Bell's 16 country total at last count was over 7 Million...and we both know how many countries there are in the world) and might have reached 9-10 Million, I just can't prove it. And in the end is what counts, not how fast an album sells initially. And HTDAAB will not surpass AYCLB's overall worldwide sales of 10.8 Million (as of January 2005). You'll see.

Originally posted by STING2 According to industry sources like Billboard which created the catalog chart for titles that had been released 2 or more years ago, so the chart would not have to deal with the occasional pop up of these older titles into the top 200 and would better reflect what was currently popular especially with new and young bands getting their first shot to make the Billboard 200.

No, according to you.

Originally posted by STING2 Nope, current popularity is based on the artist latest album release and latest concert tour. Thats the industry standard. Pink Floyd's catalog sales for a few of its albums are impressive here in the United States, but in the United Kingdom U2 is WAY AHEAD of Pink Floyd in total album sales. U2 also has more weeks on the album chart in total than Pink Floyd.

8 of Floyd's titles outsell The Joshua Tree annually, just about everywhere. That's more than a few.

And once again, Floyd's UK certifications haven't been updated in years...

Originally posted by STING2 What I said was a FACT! According to the CRIA, "Whish You Were Here" has sold 300,000 copies in Canada! There is no certification for a new sales level. It has certainly sold more since 1979, but there is no estimate or figure that can be regarded as "FACT" including yours.

No, what you said was fact in 1979. Wish You Were Here sells 150-175,000 copies annually in the US. The US's population is 1/10 of Canada's. And Floyd's Canadian sale are slightly higher than the US' in terms of per capita. So, Wish You Were Here sells at least 15-17,000 annually in Canada, which is not far fetched, considering. Do the math.

Originally posted by STING2 I said the IFPI does not count double albums! That is clearly explained on their website. I did not find a CRIA answer to this question, but in looking at some other double albums, it appears that their policy is the same as RIAA. If its not, it would mean that Echoes has sold 4 times as many copies in Canada as it has in the United States on a Per-Capita basis.

Agreed for the most part but...something I noticed about the CRIA's new seachable database is that it's far from complete. For example, take a look at The Cars data. Heartbeat City is their biggest selling album and it hasn't even been certified Gold in Canada? I don't think so...

Originally posted by STING2 Thats right. You can try and guess what the album has sold since then, but any figure you come up with is simply an estimate which could be very inaccurate. Its possible the album has not sold enough copies to be certified at 500,000 and its possible that it has sold more. Either way, the only thing that is FACT, is that the album is certified for 400,000 copies.

Using a similar formula from above. Since the The Division Bell sells 100,000+ copies annually in the US, it sells at least 10,000 copies in Canada annually. Again, that's not far fetched... Do the math.

Originally posted by STING2 U2's back catalog routinely outsells Pink Floyds in their home country the United Kingdom. Most of Pink Floyd's older titles have not made the UK album chart since the 1980s or 1970s, while most of U2 albums have made it back into the UK album chart.

Not anywhere else in the world though, apart from mabye Ireland.

Originally posted by STING2 Right now in Canada, U2 has sold 6,900,000 copies to Pink Floyds 6,100,000. Those are the numbers from the CRIA. You can guess what this album has sold since all you want to, but these are the facts listed on CRIA and if CRIA decides to put a list of the top selling artist in the country up, U2 will rank ahead of Pink Floyd based on the current certifications.

No, not currently. Many of Floyd's album are unaccounted for on the far from complete CRIA database. The Final Cut, Meddle & A Collection of Great Dance Songs have at least sold 100-200,000 each (if not more) here. The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn, A Saucerful Of Secrets, Ummagumma, Atom Heart Mother, A Nice Pair, Obscured By Clouds & The Wall Live '80-'81: Is There Anybody Out There? are all at least Gold (50,000 copies) here too.

Originally posted by STING2 An album that sales 1,000,000 copies in 6 months is far more impressive than an album that takes a decade to sale the same number of albums. An album that takes a decade or more to sell a million albums will l likely have much of its sales coming from people who already purchased the album for a variety of reasons to include, new formats or replacement of lost or damaged albums.

That's not necessarily true. And for example, it's far less than that when you consider HTDAAB was sold for $7.99-10.99 in many world markets the first week. That's at least 1 Million copies sold because of it.

Originally posted by STING2 Their overall album sales are ahead of Pink Floyds in Canada and the United Kingdom and probably in most markets outside the United States. The United States is the only market in the world where we have CONFIRMED sales figures showing that Pink Floyd's catalog sales more than U2's.

Uh, no. In Canada and everywhere else, Floyd is ahead of U2. Apart from probably Ireland. And in the UK you're right however.

Originally posted by STING2 If Dark Side Of the Moon sold over 100,000 copies every year in the United Kingdom, it would be on the UK album chart every single week! Its NOT not even close! In fact, Dark Side of The Moon only spent 30 weeks on the UK album chart in the 1980s and has not spent significantly more time on that chart since 1990. It does pop up in there every now and then, but after a decade of time, were talking dozens of weeks, not hundreds.

It's a catalog item. You know that. Catalog titles are specifically relegated to their own chart (unless they're selling so much, that they would have to be put back on to the album chart). In the US for example, The Dark Side Of The Moon sells enough copies each week to be on the US album charts. But for the above listed reasons, it's not. 100,000 copies in annual sales in the UK is not far fetched.

Originally posted by STING2 The Joshua Tree and Dark Side.... are much closer to each other in sales in the United Kingdom than they are on the USA. In 1993, Joshua Tree was at 6 times platinum while, Dark Side was at 7 times platinum, even though it had a 14 year headstart on Joshua Tree.

No, they're not. I've shown you that.

Originally posted by STING2 Most Pink Floyd albums in the United Kingdom have not returned to the album chart after their initial chart runs. Dark Side Of the Moon is the only Pink Floyd album to have significant chart activity in the UK and then were talking in terms of dozens of weeks per decade, not hundreds.

Originally posted by STING2 Most U2 albums have returned to the UK album chart after their initial chart runs. U2 has more weeks on the UK album chart in total than Pink Floyd and has sold over 11,000,000 copies in the United Kingdom compared to only 4,520,000 for Pink Floyd.

Go to BPI and count it yourself.

U2: 11,000,000

Pink Floyd: 4,520,000

Ummagumma re-entered UK the charts 6 times.
Meddle re-entered the UK charts 7 times.
Relics re-entered the UK charts 2 timies.
The Dark Side Of The Moon re-entered the UK charts 19 times.
Wish You Were Here re-entered the UK charts 7 times.
The Wall re-entered the UK charts 4 times.

And for the one millionth time, the UK certification figures are out of date.

Originally posted by STING2 Pink Floyd have NOT sold 200 million albums worldwide! If you think they have, prove it! So far, there is no evidence that Pink Floyd has sold more albums than U2 in any country except the United States.

LOL. They sold 140 Million by early 1994. And 175 Million by 1999...

There's a fascinating little seach engine called www.google.com/ . You should check it out sometime.

Originally posted by STING2 Pink Floyd had a concert attendence increase on their Division Bell tour over the AMLOR tour in North America because they had cheaper ticket prices for the hard to sell seats.

They weren't cheaper for where they were located in the venues in comparison. And every artist puts cheap or cheaper tickets for the hard to sell seats. And these tickets didn't make up the majority of the tickets put on sale for Floyd's shows in '94 for the one millionth time. There were also $35-37.50 and $60-75 prices, that made up the majority of tickets put on sale.

Originally posted by STING2 If Pink Floyd charged $10 dollars for a ticket in 1977, that same ticket would be $19.30 in 1987 and exactly $20.00 in 1988 when adjusting for inflation.

So inflation rose 93.3% from 1977 to 1987?

ROTFLMFAO!

Originally posted by STING2 AFTER 10 YEARS, PINK FLOYD charged the same amount of money for tickets on their 1987-1988 AMLOR tour as they did on their Animals Tour back in 1977. No real increase in price at all!

ROTF...

Originally posted by STING2 Its a fact that HTDAAB has sold over 8.5 million copies so far! Its only a matter of time before the consumer figure catches up with the retail figure, but I'm sure you'll have a new comment when that happens as well.

8.5 Million copies have been sold to retailers. But 6.5 Million copies have been sold to fans so far.

 

[NoControl]

Originally posted by STING2 No evidence to support such a figure yet. Given their confirmed sales in the United Kingdom, United States and Canada, its highly unlikely Pink Floyd have sold 200 million. But hey, if you have accurate confirmed certifications that prove that, show us.

Once again, there is not much evidence to support these figures either. U2 appears to sell more than Pink Floyd outside the United States. In the USA, Pink Floyd has one album that is always on the catalog chart and two others that show up from time to time.

Yes, there is evidence. You just choose to ignore it. Metfield has posted several pieces of evidence regarding Floyd's sales, for example. Google's also a wonder search engine.

Originally posted by STING2 Using the tour end totals for GROSS and ATTENDANCE is inaccurate because it does not take into account tours that were shorter or played smaller venues for reasons not having anything to do with the business. Only by comparing the individual markets in cases that are this close can one accurately compare demand for each artist.

Inaccurate? LOL. I've gone over U2's and Floyd's tours in comparison to one another in terms of length (among many other stats). And Floyd still comes out on top. You just love to ignore the facts.

Originally posted by STING2 Totally FALSE! Adjusting for inflation, Pink Floyd charged the same price for tickets in 1987 as they did in 1977. Its interesting to note that Pink Floyd's $22.50 priced ticket on the Division Bell tour, was less than the price to see them for the Animals tour back in 1977, once the figures are adjusted for inflation!

ROTFLMFAO!


I've never seen someone more in denial of the facts than yourself.

Thanks for the laughs! You're absolutely hilarious every single day...

 

[STING2]

No Control,


"You're unbelievable."
"Let me know when you've come back from outer space."
"BS"
"You don't have a clue what you're talking about."
"Duh!"
"Shit, do I have to spell it out for you?"
"And when you do, make sure you're not foaming at the mouth, will ya?"
"Would you say that you're hopeless?"
"Would you say that if a sense of humour came up behind you and bit you in the ass, would you know it was there?"
"You're like a xerox machine."
"It's wrong. Duh!"
"Don't give me that BS. I'm not going through your entire post history just to find one quote. You're full of it."
"You just love to ignore the facts."
"I've never seen someone more in denial of the facts than yourself."
"Thanks for the laughs! You're absolutely hilarious every single day..."
"If you want to live in la la land and choose to ignore the facts, that's your problem.""



Have you read the faq/rules page for this website? Do you think your above comments are consistent with the faq/rules?





"Yes it is an accurate way of looking at it. Because you initially said both whole tours in comparison to each other. Now, you're talking about individual markets. You're totally unbelievable. If you want to live in la la land and choose to ignore the facts, that's your problem."

I compare the tour by going into detail and looking at the individual markets. A tour end total can be higher or lower based on factors that have nothing to do with the true level of demand for the artist. If an artist elects to do a shorter tour, or play smaller venue's for personal and artistic reasons, then a lump sum total for the end of that tour is not going to be an accurate measure of the demand for that artist. Bruce Springsteens new tour is going to be in small theaters and it would be inaccurate to take his total attendance and total Gross at the end of that tour and conclude that demand to see the BOSS had dropped.






"So, you're saying that inflation rose 32% in seven years in the US? LOL And they weren't less for what Floyd charged where the tickets at those prices were located in the Stadiums & Arenas that Floyd performed in in 1987."

I'm stating a fact when it comes to inflation. The 22.50 ticket price that Pink Floyd charged for many of its shows in 1994 would only be $17.09 in 1987. Pink Floyd charged less for the hard to sell seats on their Division Bell tour, then they did for the same type of seat back in 1987.





"8 of Floyd's titles outsell The Joshua Tree annually, just about everywhere. That's more than a few."


Prove it! We used to get the top 200 Catalog titles (USA) for a couple of years from Soundscan. Dr. Who would post the results. U2 had 3 titles appear in the top 200 during those years, they were the Joshua Tree, Best of 1980-1990 and Achtung Baby.

Pink Floyd had 3 titles make the list as well. They were of Dark Side of the Moon, The Wall, and Wish You Were Here.

Of all six titles, the only two titles to make the list in every week were Dark Side.... and Best of 1980-1990.

To make the list of the top 200 Catalog titles, an album has to sale roughly between 1,800 to 2,200 copies for that week.

There are only 3 Pink Floyd titles that outsell the Joshua Tree in the USA each year based on the catalog chart information and two of them only do so slightly.

Can you produce any confirmed sales figures from Soundscan or RIAA type companies that track and certify album sales to support your claim that 8 Pink Floyd titles outsell the Joshua Tree every year?





"And once again, Floyd's UK certifications haven't been updated in years..."


Many of U2's certifications for their best sellling albums have not been updated in years either. U2 has more weeks on the UK album charts than Pink Floyd and U2 has sold 11,000,000 albums as certified by the BPI compared to 4,520,000 copies for Pink Floyd as certified by the BPI.



"No, what you said was fact in 1979. Wish You Were Here sells 150-175,000 copies annually in the US. The US's population is 1/10 of Canada's. And Floyd's Canadian sale are slightly higher than the US' in terms of per capita. So, Wish You Were Here sells at least 15-17,000 annually in Canada, which is not far fetched, considering. Do the math."


Its a fact if you go to the CRIA website and count up the certified album sales for Pink Floyd, the total comes out to a little over 6 million while U2 has sold nearly 7 million. Any extrapolation done to achieve an estimate of what "Wish You Were Here" has sold in Canada is just that, an estimate. How many copies it has actually sold in Canada will not be a confirmed fact until or if it is recertified again. There are several U2 titles at CRIA have not been recertified yet in a country where U2 sometimes sale more than twice as many albums as the do in the USA, per capita.



"Using a similar formula from above. Since the The Division Bell sells 100,000+ copies annually in the US, it sells at least 10,000 copies in Canada annually. Again, that's not far fetched... Do the math."


We had the top 200 soundscan catalog chart posted here every week for almost two years. I did not see the Division Bell make that chart even once. In order to make that chart, a title has to sell between 1,800 to 2,200 , depending on the week. If Division Bell was selling 100,000+ annually in the USA, it would have made the chart nearly every week. The fact is, it did not even pop on there once!






"No, they're not. I've shown you that."


You have not showed me anything to prove your claim that Dark Side.... has sold 3.3 million copies in the United Kingdom to date. As of 1993, it was only slightly ahead of Joshua
Tree.




"Not anywhere else in the world though, apart from mabye Ireland."

Prove it! So far, we have yet to see a single country outside of the United States where it has been confirmed through certifications or soundscan type figures that Pink Floyd has sold more than U2.





"No, not currently. Many of Floyd's album are unaccounted for on the far from complete CRIA database. The Final Cut, Meddle & A Collection of Great Dance Songs have at least sold 100-200,000 each (if not more) here. The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn, A Saucerful Of Secrets, Ummagumma, Atom Heart Mother, A Nice Pair, Obscured By Clouds & The Wall Live '80-'81: Is There Anybody Out There? are all at least Gold (50,000 copies) here too."


Neither Pink Floyd's or U2's catalog is has been fully certified at CRIA. But, from the titles that have been certified, we see that U2 is ahead of Pink Floyd by nearly 1 million copies.






"That's not necessarily true. And for example, it's far less than that when you consider HTDAAB was sold for $7.99-10.99 in many world markets the first week. That's at least 1 Million copies sold because of it."

I was talking about how the Joshua Tree selling 1 million copies in Canada in 6 months, was more impressive than Dark Side....or The Wall taking nearly 10 years to sell the same number of albums.

As for HTDAAB, the suggested retail price was reduced for a few days during the first week in the USA, but most retailers actually sold it at $15.99. Either way, hardcore fans buy the album the first week regardless of price and changing the suggested retail price the first week is unlikely to have much effect. Were talking maybe 100,000 copies at most.



"Uh, no. In Canada and everywhere else, Floyd is ahead of U2. Apart from probably Ireland. And in the UK you're right however."

Show me a country outside the United States where Pink Floyd confirmed sales from actual certifications is higher than U2's? Oh, and I'm not talking about your estimates.




"It's a catalog item. You know that. Catalog titles are specifically relegated to their own chart (unless they're selling so much, that they would have to be put back on to the album chart). In the US for example, The Dark Side Of The Moon sells enough copies each week to be on the US album charts. But for the above listed reasons, it's not. 100,000 copies in annual sales in the UK is not far fetched."


THERE IS NO CATALOG CHART FOR THE UNITED KINGDOM, unless one was just recently introduced or something. In the United Kingdom, if an old album sales enough copies to make it to #65 on the album chart that week, then it appears on the album chart. Dark Side Of the Moon only makes the British album chart a few dozen weeks per decade. There are albums that make the British chart for several dozen weeks per year and do not sale 100,000 copies. Dark Side is on the UK album chart less than a dozen weeks per year.





"Ummagumma re-entered UK the charts 6 times.
Meddle re-entered the UK charts 7 times.
Relics re-entered the UK charts 2 timies.
The Dark Side Of The Moon re-entered the UK charts 19 times.
Wish You Were Here re-entered the UK charts 7 times.
The Wall re-entered the UK charts 4 times."

"And for the one millionth time, the UK certification figures are out of date."


The only Pink Floyd albums released prior to January 1980, that made the UK album charts at least for one week from January 1980 to December 1989 are Dark Side Of The Moon with 30 weeks, The Wall with 42 weeks, and Wish You Were Here with 1 week.

From January 1990 to December 1995, the only Pink Floyd albums released prior to 1990 to make the album chart were Dark Side of the Moon with 36 weeks, and Wish You Were Here with 5 weeks and The Wall with 5 weeks.

These facts come from 3 UK album chart books, one specifically focused on the 1980s and the two other's, the 1990 and 1996 editions album chart books that cover everything up to the time the book was published.

From 1980 to 1996, Dark Side of the Moon was the only Pink Floyd album released prior to 1980 that had any significant chart runs. By signifcant, were talking a few dozen weeks on the album chart, not enough for the album to be selling 100,000 copies a year in the United Kingdom.





"LOL. They sold 140 Million by early 1994. And 175 Million by 1999..."

"There's a fascinating little seach engine called www.google.com/ . You should check it out sometime."

You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. Show me certifications and soundscan type figures that add up to 140 million in 1994 or 175 million in 1999 for global sales. Refering to some internet page that claims x figure means nothing. The label is the equilavent of what you claim a concert promoter is.






"So inflation rose 93.3% from 1977 to 1987?"


Indeed it did! The worst inflation years in US history were during the late 1970s and early 1980s. Interest rates rose dramatically in their early 1980s to get the inflation under control. During that time, prices sometimes rose 10% to 15% in just one year.



AFTER 10 YEARS, PINK FLOYD charged the same amount of money for tickets on their 1987-1988 AMLOR tour as they did on their Animals Tour back in 1977. No real increase in price at all! The $22.50 ticket priced charged on the Division Bell tour in 1994, would be less than the 10 dollars Pink Floyd charged in 1977 for their Animals tour.

 

[NoControl]

Originally posted by STING2 I compare the tour by going into detail and looking at the individual markets. A tour end total can be higher or lower based on factors that have nothing to do with the true level of demand for the artist. If an artist elects to do a shorter tour, or play smaller venue's for personal and artistic reasons, then a lump sum total for the end of that tour is not going to be an accurate measure of the demand for that artist. Bruce Springsteens new tour is going to be in small theaters and it would be inaccurate to take his total attendance and total Gross at the end of that tour and conclude that demand to see the BOSS had dropped.

NOW you're arguing something slightly different to the original argument at hand, just so you can slip by the radar hopefully without being noticed. Well, I noticed you. Clever, but you can't outsmart me.

Originally posted by STING2 I'm stating a fact when it comes to inflation. The 22.50 ticket price that Pink Floyd charged for many of its shows in 1994 would only be $17.09 in 1987. Pink Floyd charged less for the hard to sell seats on their Division Bell tour, then they did for the same type of seat back in 1987.

But not with where the seats in the venues were located compared to 1987.

Originally posted by STING2 Prove it! We used to get the top 200 Catalog titles (USA) for a couple of years from Soundscan. Dr. Who would post the results. U2 had 3 titles appear in the top 200 during those years, they were the Joshua Tree, Best of 1980-1990 and Achtung Baby.

Pink Floyd had 3 titles make the list as well. They were of Dark Side of the Moon, The Wall, and Wish You Were Here.

Of all six titles, the only two titles to make the list in every week were Dark Side.... and Best of 1980-1990.

To make the list of the top 200 Catalog titles, an album has to sale roughly between 1,800 to 2,200 copies for that week.

You don't have to sell between 1,800-2,200 copies per week for the vast majority of weeks in a year to sell 100,000 copies a year.

Originally posted by STING2 There are only 3 Pink Floyd titles that outsell the Joshua Tree in the USA each year based on the catalog chart information and two of them only do so slightly.

Wrong.

Originally posted by STING2 Can you produce any confirmed sales figures from Soundscan or RIAA type companies that track and certify album sales to support your claim that 8 Pink Floyd titles outsell the Joshua Tree every year?

Pink Floyd's back catalog sells roughly 2 Million copies in the US and 4 Million copies worldwide annually. That's a fact. Metfield posted links regarding this from Metallica's news archive. If you do the math for each title you'll see that. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out.

Originally posted by STING2 Many of U2's certifications for their best sellling albums have not been updated in years either. U2 has more weeks on the UK album charts than Pink Floyd and U2 has sold 11,000,000 albums as certified by the BPI compared to 4,520,000 copies for Pink Floyd as certified by the BPI.

That's out of date. Understand english?

Originally posted by STING2 Its a fact if you go to the CRIA website and count up the certified album sales for Pink Floyd, the total comes out to a little over 6 million while U2 has sold nearly 7 million. Any extrapolation done to achieve an estimate of what "Wish You Were Here" has sold in Canada is just that, an estimate. How many copies it has actually sold in Canada will not be a confirmed fact until or if it is recertified again. There are several U2 titles at CRIA have not been recertified yet in a country where U2 sometimes sale more than twice as many albums as the do in the USA, per capita.

No, what you said was fact decades ago. Those estimates aren't far fetched, whether you like it or not.

Originally posted by STING2 We had the top 200 soundscan catalog chart posted here every week for almost two years. I did not see the Division Bell make that chart even once. In order to make that chart, a title has to sell between 1,800 to 2,200 , depending on the week. If Division Bell was selling 100,000+ annually in the USA, it would have made the chart nearly every week. The fact is, it did not even pop on there once!

So what? I've already explained above that you don't have to sell 1,800-2,200 copies every single week of the year to sell 100,000 copies annually.

Originally posted by STING2 You have not showed me anything to prove your claim that Dark Side.... has sold 3.3 million copies in the United Kingdom to date. As of 1993, it was only slightly ahead of Joshua
Tree.

As of 1993. Not now. And it's not a far fetched estimate in the least, since the UK's population is 1/5 of the US' population.

Originally posted by STING2 Prove it! So far, we have yet to see a single country outside of the United States where it has been confirmed through certifications or soundscan type figures that Pink Floyd has sold more than U2.

140 Million copies sold by early 1994. 175 Million copies sold by 1999...

www.google.ca/

Originally posted by STING2 Neither Pink Floyd's or U2's catalog is has been fully certified at CRIA. But, from the titles that have been certified, we see that U2 is ahead of Pink Floyd by nearly 1 million copies.

How so, since you've just admitted that it's not complete! LOL

And not even close regarding Floyd's sales here. Pink Floyd's Canadian sales are at least 7 Million.

Originally posted by STING2 I was talking about how the Joshua Tree selling 1 million copies in Canada in 6 months, was more impressive than Dark Side....or The Wall taking nearly 10 years to sell the same number of albums.

It didn't necessarily take ten years to sell that amount of copies. It just took a certain number of years to be certified.

Originally posted by STING2 As for HTDAAB, the suggested retail price was reduced for a few days during the first week in the USA, but most retailers actually sold it at $15.99. Either way, hardcore fans buy the album the first week regardless of price and changing the suggested retail price the first week is unlikely to have much effect. Were talking maybe 100,000 copies at most.

No, it's at least 1 Million.

Originally posted by STING2 Show me a country outside the United States where Pink Floyd confirmed sales from actual certifications is higher than U2's? Oh, and I'm not talking about your estimates.

www.google.ca/

It's a great search engine...and it's probably going to be your new best friend in the very near future.

Originally posted by STING2 THERE IS NO CATALOG CHART FOR THE UNITED KINGDOM, unless one was just recently introduced or something. In the United Kingdom, if an old album sales enough copies to make it to #65 on the album chart that week, then it appears on the album chart. Dark Side Of the Moon only makes the British album chart a few dozen weeks per decade. There are albums that make the British chart for several dozen weeks per year and do not sale 100,000 copies. Dark Side is on the UK album chart less than a dozen weeks per year.

If you look at when this album was certified on each occasion in the UK, it would add up to 100,000 copies sold annually.

Originally posted by STING2 The only Pink Floyd albums released prior to January 1980, that made the UK album charts at least for one week from January 1980 to December 1989 are Dark Side Of The Moon with 30 weeks, The Wall with 42 weeks, and Wish You Were Here with 1 week.

From January 1990 to December 1995, the only Pink Floyd albums released prior to 1990 to make the album chart were Dark Side of the Moon with 36 weeks, and Wish You Were Here with 5 weeks and The Wall with 5 weeks.

Ummagumma re-entered UK the charts 6 times.
Meddle re-entered the UK charts 7 times.
Relics re-entered the UK charts 2 timies.
The Dark Side Of The Moon re-entered the UK charts 19 times.
Wish You Were Here re-entered the UK charts 7 times.
The Wall re-entered the UK charts 4 times.

And for the one millionth time, the UK certification figures are out of date.

You said, virtually no Floyd album has re-entered the chart or very rarely had, and I'm showing you that many have.

Originally posted by STING2 You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. Show me certifications and soundscan type figures that add up to 140 million in 1994 or 175 million in 1999 for global sales. Refering to some internet page that claims x figure means nothing. The label is the equilavent of what you claim a concert promoter is.

http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/ptr/pfloyd/news/www.html

http://www.pinkfloydonline.com/int10.htm

http://www.pinkfloydonline.com/int14.htm

http://www.pinkfloydfan.net/t1442.html

http://www.pinkfloyd-co.com/band/interviews/grp/grpUSA.html

http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/ptr/pfloyd/interview/world.html


To show you certifications in every country in the world is ridiculous because it's impossible to accumulate every single piece of certification for any artist. You know that.

Originally posted by STING2 Indeed it did! The worst inflation years in US history were during the late 1970s and early 1980s. Interest rates rose dramatically in their early 1980s to get the inflation under control. During that time, prices sometimes rose 10% to 15% in just one year.

It's less than 93.3%. And it doesn't detract from the fact that Floyd prices have increased every tour at least 70% in North America (and slightly less elsewhere) since 1977, while their attendances have continued to increase. Virtually no one can claim this in just about every market in the world.

Originally posted by STING2 AFTER 10 YEARS, PINK FLOYD charged the same amount of money for tickets on their 1987-1988 AMLOR tour as they did on their Animals Tour back in 1977. No real increase in price at all! The $22.50 ticket priced charged on the Division Bell tour in 1994, would be less than the 10 dollars Pink Floyd charged in 1977 for their Animals tour. [/B]

Wrong, again... for the 2 millionth time.



I have a surprise for you. And it comes from your Knight In Shining Armour...Amusement Business:


WISH YOU WERE HERE

Few acts are missed more on the international touring front than Pink Floyd. In 1994, the British band grossed $103.6 million on a sold-out stadium tour that garnered popular and critical acclaim. The tour drew more than 3 million people--at least 1 million more than the Rolling Stones, Eagles, Elton John, or Billy Joel drew in the same star-studded year.
What's more, Pink Floyd missed out on the recent dramatic upswing in ticket prices, with its 1994 tickets topping out at only $60. It's not unreasonable to assume that a Pink Floyd tour today could price premium seats at $200 or more, and a $200 million tour by the band, with or without founding member Roger Waters, would be well within reach.
"Pink Floyd did sold-out stadium-level business without Roger Waters," notes Fogel, who was involved with the band's last tour when he was president of Concert Productions International (CPI). Fogel adds that he and CCE would obviously be keen to work with the group again. "We're always interested in anything that can do business, especially at that level. There is no question that Pink Floyd would do huge business."
John Meglen, now co-president of tour producer Concerts West, was on the road with Pink Floyd in '94 as an executive with CPI. "Pink Floyd didn't get to take full advantage of the increases in ticket prices, but they were always tremendously sensitive to their demographic," Meglen notes. "Pink Floyd is a band that's multi-generational, and [they] would need to be somewhat sensitive to ticket prices, as we all should."
With a history in place, Meglen says he'd be interested in any Pink Floyd touring plans, too. "Everybody puts feelers out occasionally, but I haven't heard anything about them touring," he says. "My understanding is they have no plans to tour. I'll say this: As a promoter I'd love to see it, and as a fan I'd love to see it."

Longtime Pink Floyd manager Stuart O'Rourke could not be reached for comment, but a spokesperson from O'Rourke's EMKA Management in London confirms there are no current plans for a tour. A "small, semi-acoustic" tour by Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour could take place in 2003, the source says, but plans are tentative.