The reason why i'm thinking to leave the interference forum

[Klaus]

Hello,

i really injoy discussion on your forum.
There are some things i really disslike:
1st - the forum just runns well with a few browsers (because it isn't w3c compatible? -> see http://validator.w3.org)

2nd - i start go get "spam" (or informations i didn't ask for) from "u2" - which sound's way to official - could you turn this one to interference" or "u2interference"?

3rd - and that's the main reason.
paying for getting the funcionality which was free before. It's not that i can't afford it, but i don't want to pay for it. I don't charge interference.com for my postings and i don't want to be charged or get angry about the limited functionality

so - any way to stop the inconveniences?

Klaus

 

[FallingStar]

To 3rd:

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

To 3rd:

Falling Star, people are entitled to their opinions.


I think Elvis may be the one who would have to address the first two issues, Klaus.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

the w3 compatible thing is really overrated imo. i believe now different people are handling it or something and the stupidest stuff will have a webpage fail.

i'm not sure what the stats are, but i'm sure probably like 90% or more people browse interference with ie. while it would be nice to make every page on the site compatible with an unpopular browser (like safari, which is used by maybe 1% of the people not just here, but the whole net in general) would probably be too time comsuming and even impossible.

i'm not elvis so i don't know, this is all opinion so don't yell at sicy or elvis about what i said.

about #2, i'm guessing this is the updates interference occasionally sends. i get those too. there may be a function to opt out of this, if not, perhaps it can be added.

and for #3, it's all a matter of personal opinion. if you don't want to pay, i understand. that's why it's not mandatory.

 

[Sicy]

Um, for #2, what does it matter what it says in the "From" line? The content is still the same. If you dont want to receive the mailings you can disable receiving mail from admins in your usercp under edit options.

For #3 maybe you should read this thread

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67107

 

[Klaus]

1) (or to KhanadaRhodes)

No w3c is underrated by most who use the web. It's ok to write incompatible websites if you only have to use Windows and can install the webbrowser you like, because you don't have a admin who does the job.

abut 3/4 of the machines i use for internet browsing don't work with that website.

2) (or to Sicy)
It's ok for me to get mails from the admins if it's about administrative stuff and not advertising / pr for your website.
I'd love to get a mail for example when you decided to swich from "all free website" to the "free/premium" model to discuss about that.
And i think the idea of the "From" field in e-mails is that i know who wants to write me a e-mail and "U2" should be reserved to the management of U2, even mercury (the german distributor for the CDs) or propaganda don't use U2, from my point of view that's a clear abuse of the from field.
(What would you think if i'd create a account here with the Name "E|vis" ?)

and finally 3)
It's not about the money (i pay with a friend for a 5u server with 50 Gigs data/month about 100$/Month, another friend finances his site with about 10.000 hits per day with a advert for his provider and i pay for our mailserver and our domains)

So again, it's not about the 10 bucks/year, I was really upset yesturday when i tried to find a old article of myself to qote it and the search engine didn't work anymore.
Charge for the stuff that makes traffic (think about charging for the graphic stuff like the thumbs or the smileys) but making nagware out of the forum might have the effect, that i swich to the official U2 forum http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67107 [/B][/QUOTE]http://zootopia.u2.com/ it's not the icons, the url or the fancy forum engine which makes a forum worthwile reading - it's the members.

Klaus

p.s. I'm also missing the transperancy in your pay modell. i didn't find any statistics about the income (no. of premium members...) and the expenses (domain 25$/Year, Servertraffic and so on. Then a few months later i see that Elvis has the money to sponsor the entrence fee for a atu2/ hardrock cafe event for its members..
..well i guess that would fill another thread

I'm sure you are all nice guys who run this site, but just try to imagine how this looks like when s.o. like me dosn't know anyone of you personally.

 

[FallingStar]

Falling Star, people are entitled to their opinions.

Sure, I know that. That's why I did .

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

Charge for the stuff that makes traffic

actually, stuff like searching does take up quite a bit of bandwidth. when someone searches for something, the server has to go through all of the posts (ever, or in a particular forum, depending on how you set the search) to find the post you were looking for. that can be pretty expensive if you have 2,000 people looking for something.

i would think having the premium one look like how it does now and the free one be kind of bare bones like you suggested would be a good idea, but would be very time consuming. i don't know a thing as to how to create a vbulletin forum, but i can only imagine it means at least creating new templates for each setting, and then adding people into either one.

and as for elvis fronting money for the enterance fee, i can only guess it's because it was something he felt like doing. i would imagine that came out of his pocket, because he wanted to do it. i can completely understand why he wouldn't want to keep paying the thousands a year it costs to run interference completely out of pocket.

as for the w3c thing, i can only go with what other administrators of other forums have told me, as i obviously have no experience in running and paying for a forum. the only thing i can guess is that older computers and older browsers may not work as well with interference. i can only imagine what it would look like with ie 2.0. i've browsed the forums on a mac, and i didn't notice anything that looked odd. i've also browsed it on a new pc with the latest software, and on a pc that's a bit older (running win98) with not so up-to-date software.

i'm not attacking you or anything, sorry if i come off as rude or anything.

 

[arw]

I was pleasantly surprised to see that the premium membership was only $12.00 a year. When I decided to explore that option I thought it would be a lot more than it is.

 

[melon]

What browser do you use? Are you running this on a PC / Mac / Unix / Linux?

Most web creation software is tailored for Internet Explorer, which is known to be forgiving for sloppy coding, so the software doesn't care if it isn't strict HTML 4 / W3C compliant. On web sites I test, I test on IE and Netscape 7.0, as Netscape is HTML 4 compliant. I'll probably add Mozilla 1.3 and Opera 7.0 in the rounds of testing for the future on my own projects....

...but I digress. I have checked this page on Netscape 7.0 and I get no problems. Perhaps it is up to your admin to update some of the software?

Melon

 

[melon]

Actually, the "validator" is being too picky. Some of the tags it didn't like are necessary for different browsers. W3C might not like it, but big deal: it won't mess up your viewing experience. The rest generally have to deal with syntax with the U2 items ad and the PayPal / Amazon donate buttons, but those are the URLs that PayPal / Amazon have created: they shouldn't be messing up your browsing experience either.

In other words, I think that if your browser is too old, it isn't recognizing HTML 4 correctly. This site is using HTML 4.01 transitional. Again, your admin would have to update the software.

Melon

 

[Klaus]

KhanadaRhodes:
Searching takes some cpu cycles.. but bandwith? You only send a small html-form to the server and get back a regular page. (And cpu shouldn't be a issue on servers you can buy today when you only run a forum.)
I never worked with that software, it would be easy with some solutions (Notes for example, where you store the content and the view in different parts, but it might be impossible with other sollutions, which are less flexible coded.
Browser -> comment to melon

arw9797: as i said before, it's not the 12 $, it's more a principle

melon:
Different browsers on different operatingsystems (different 32 bit Windows, different Linuxes, HPUX, AIX, OS/2, MacOS), IE (Windows/Mac/Solaris) worked ok (i guess that's the tested browser) Browsers with the Gecko engine (Mozilla, Netscape 7, Phoenix, ...) no problem either.
xlinks/pmlinks worked to - all other browsers were problematic (most famous Netscape 2.x 3.x 4.x)

Since i have different environments dependend on where i am (University, Work, Home) i can't allways choose the browser and Operatingsystem i'd like to use

the w3c standard is a brilliant idea, (almost=) every browser can display w3c validated pages.
There validator isn't too picky - "HTML 4.01 transitional is allready the "soft" version of 4.01 strict. if the webpage can't pass the test it isn't html 4.01 .

In some companies most of the modern browsers are forbidden because of security problems - lots of them stil use Netscape 4.6x (Banks for example). In one bank it's policy just to use software which wokred 1 year without bugs in a testing environment (i guess that's why they don't install windows there *gg*)

Klaus

 

[melon]

Unfortunately, why should there continue to be support for obsolete browsers? Netscape 2.x, 3.x, 4.x are not W3C or HTML 4 compliant. In fact, these versions of Netscape have their own proprietary tags, and, considering this site does not have these proprietary tags in the source code, it is likely why you are having problems. Netscape 6 is the first "strict" Netscape browser. In fact, Netscape was where IE got the bright idea to make up its own tags to begin with.

Also, with these companies, that is terribly flawed logic. Using older browsers does not make them "more secure." In fact, they are riddled with security holes that are not being patched, because they are likely no longer being supported "support-wise." Often, these new programs merely inherit the security holes from the previous versions.

Melon

 

[Klaus]

melon:

i agree with you that netscape 2-4 don't care much about standards - and html 4.x pages won't be shown with "full beauty". On the other hand it's not important that they have some tags which aren't used anymore..
Html 4.01 was designed to be viewable on old browsers (old browsers should simply ignore tags where they don't know how to display) I just tried an old Netscape build it just has problems with the navigation inside a thread (dosn't work) and with posting.. i'd have to take a closer look if this is netscapes fault or the fault of this webpage.
pmlinks (fully w3c html 4.x compatible) f**s up lots of images (mostly adds) so it wasn't runing perfect as i thought, but nothing important was missing.
Other Browsers (lynx, some unix browsers (kde built in) which claim to be html 4.x comp. failed to present the page..
it just rendered a blank screen.

Klaus

p.s. yes... it was a bad idea to present netscape as an example ;-)

 

[melon]

You should probably check if those browsers are DHTML / CSS-compatible. Something tells me this site is using style sheets.

Melon

 

[Klaus]

melon:

I almost forgot.. Security:
yes there is logic in this - they only use programs which worked without bugs or security holes for 1 year - so they had a special netscape version and the sourcecode and fixed that software for years unless they called it stable (netscape 4.61 build010615 for example).

Support is not an issue, if you pay for it you get the support as long as you want to (especcialy if you are talking about several tenthousand clients)

Klaus

 

[Elvis]

Hello,

i really injoy discussion on your forum.
There are some things i really disslike:
1st - the forum just runns well with a few browsers (because it isn't w3c compatible? -> see http://validator.w3.org)

2nd - i start go get "spam" (or informations i didn't ask for) from "u2" - which sound's way to official - could you turn this one to interference" or "u2interference"?

3rd - and that's the main reason.
paying for getting the funcionality which was free before. It's not that i can't afford it, but i don't want to pay for it. I don't charge interference.com for my postings and i don't want to be charged or get angry about the limited functionality

so - any way to stop the inconveniences?

Klaus

1) w3c validator blows. I'm using what little (none) free time I have to support OLD browsers. Browsers are free, computers are relatively inexpensive, and if a company or admin hasnt updated... I'm sorry... that's not really my problem. I'm staying with the times.

2) Opt out of Admin mail in your UserCP. I used to use U2 News - I never had a complaint. I use U2 now because it's simple and to the point. If you feel mislead... I'd wonder if you get 'real'
email from 'U2'.

3) I'm not rehashing the reasons and debate for the Premium fee. Either pay it or don't, no one is being forced to, nor does not paying stop you from using the forum for posting and reading.

Was this thread really worth starting?

 

[sue4u2]

OK, I don't understand alot of the past stuff and why it's important - now!!. I just sign up for premium service - what now??

 

[Sicy]

Elvis will be updating shortly.

 

[Tip Top Prince]

Re: Re: The reason why i'm thinking to leave the interference forum

2) Opt out of Admin mail in your UserCP. I used to use U2 News - I never had a complaint. I use U2 now because it's simple and to the point. If you feel mislead... I'd wonder if you get 'real'
email from 'U2'.


Was this thread really worth starting?

He's not talking about getting the email, he's talking about you addressing it as "From U2", which is quite clearly wrong. "Interference(.com)" would be more appropriate. Even U2.com don't address their email as "U2"

And I'm glad to see your mature, nuturing attitude hasn't changed. Keep on getting pissy with people who disagree with you - it's a pleasant reminder.

 

[Elvis]

Re: Re: Re: The reason why i'm thinking to leave the interference forum

He's not talking about getting the email, he's talking about you addressing it as "From U2", which is quite clearly wrong. "Interference(.com)" would be more appropriate. Even U2.com don't address their email as "U2"

And I'm glad to see your mature, nuturing attitude hasn't changed. Keep on getting pissy with people who disagree with you - it's a pleasant reminder.

I know someone who used to have his 'From:' as "Toilet Plunger".... but that's another misleading story....

First.. it doesnt say "From U2", he meant that the FROM line says "U2".

Second, as I said b4, this is the first complaint I've had. I will consider altering it for the next mailing however.

And Third...
I have every right to express my opinion, sarcasm, and humor as anyone else does. I also have the right to be offended, insulted, and argue. One difference, ultimately I, and the mods/admins of this forum draw the lines of which may be colored in.

Sounds like you're trying to turn this into something of a more personal nature, Rufus

 

[Klaus]

Elvis:

1)w3c isn't about old browsers - interference makes incompatible html old netscape was a bad example.
It's just a comment - if you don't want to make it compatible it's your decision.

2) as i said i expected different mail from "u2" - so it was missleading, thanks for changing that in the future

3)Even churches (who expect believers) tell the people how much money they used for what.
I'm sure you interference guys and girls are all nice people. But don't expect me to send you money when i don't get exact feedback what you did with the money before. (do i finance premium tickets for the next hadrock cafe u2 special?, are webservers more expensive in the us than in europe, i have no idea)

Klaus

 

[Elvis]

Elvis:

3)Even churches (who expect believers) tell the people how much money they used for what.
I'm sure you interference guys and girls are all nice people. But don't expect me to send you money when i don't get exact feedback what you did with the money before. (do i finance premium tickets for the next hadrock cafe u2 special?, are webservers more expensive in the us than in europe, i have no idea)

Klaus

Klaus,

All of this has been discussed previously... in several threads relating to Premium memberships and donations. I'm not about to rehash all of this specifically for you. Interference is neither a church, nor a company, nor a gov't - it's a hobby. The Premium membership cost is not a donation, nor is it an investment (as in stock) in Interference, it is however the very reasonable amount decided upon to help cover expenses. If you don't want to pay it, don't. You can still read and post on the forum for free. Using this site and it's features are a priviledge, not a right.

The few dollars per person that Interference subsidized for the Hard Rock Cafe gathering came out of my personal pocket. It was my gesture as a 'thank you' to those that have helped support the site. Now if you want to question how I can afford to do that... you may, but I won't answer. My personal finances are no one elses business.

 

[martha]

Sorry, Joel, but I gotta say something here.

But don't expect me to send you money when i don't get exact feedback what you did with the money before.

Then



don't



pay.


It's really not as difficult as you want it to be.

 

[Sicy]

Joel doesnt "expect" anyone to send money. You have a choice, either you want to or you dont. He could have shut the forum down altogether, but we had a poll, and people voted, and they voted for optional premium membership and non premium members would still be able to view and post for free. And another thing, he was going to only make a few forums available for non paying members but he received so much support from everyone that they are all available to read and post for free.

 

[DebbieSG]

Klaus, you can't leave! It may not be your "hobby", as Elvis said, but, isn't it an enjoyable extracurricular activity

one filled with the wide range of views that do make up "the world?" and, you being from the world, isn't this just your "cup of tea?"

nod "uh huh" Klaus! and, maybe, if you feel like answering anybody here, you could also fill me in about what all this techno-cratic discussion means

hey, don't feel sad and left out, you probably missed the party at the Hard Rock! I get the same "distance makes good brothers" (paraphrase of previous speech in California) vibe here, too!

 

[Klaus]

martha:
That's
what
i
will
do

Siccy:
since the limitations of the free version of interference don't make sense from the technical point of view (traffic) i thought he would expect it. And .. i appreciate all your work you put in that forum.
But it's pretty normal that discussion groups, mailinglists and even information is free on the web.

DebbieSG:
Thanks! I'm affraid i didn't understand completely what you were trying to say but it seems nice

Klaus

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

DebbieSG:
Thanks! I'm affraid i didn't understand completely what you were trying to say

you're not the first person.

 

[Sicy]

 

[bonosloveslave]