Bomb's Weak Single #'s in the US

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cjboog

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I have wondered why in recent years U2's single chart numbers in the US are so bad. Look at recent #'s:

Beautiful Day was #1 in the UK, #21 in the US
Stuck in a Moment was #2 in the UK, #52 in the US
Walk On was #5 in the Uk, didn't chart on Billboard
Elevation was #3 in the UK, didn't chart on Billboard

Electrical Storm was #5 in the UK, #77 in the US

Vertigo was #1 in the UK, #31 in the US
Sometimes was #1 in the UK, #97 in the US :yuck:
City of Blinding Lights was #2 in the UK, didn't chart on Billboard
All Becuase of You was #4 in the UK, didn't chart on Billboard

I know that modern radio in the US is often dominated by hip hop and r&b, but that doesn't explain the difference between #97 and #1. Can someone please explain why their singles have been so bad in the US over the last couple years. Thanks
 
cjboog said:
I have wondered why in recent years U2's single chart numbers in the US are so bad. Look at recent #'s:

Beautiful Day was #1 in the UK, #21 in the US
Stuck in a Moment was #2 in the UK, #52 in the US
Walk On was #5 in the Uk, didn't chart on Billboard
Elevation was #3 in the UK, didn't chart on Billboard

Electrical Storm was #5 in the UK, #77 in the US

Vertigo was #1 in the UK, #31 in the US
Sometimes was #1 in the UK, #97 in the US :yuck:
City of Blinding Lights was #2 in the UK, didn't chart on Billboard
All Becuase of You was #4 in the UK, didn't chart on Billboard

I know that modern radio in the US is often dominated by hip hop and r&b, but that doesn't explain the difference between #97 and #1. Can someone please explain why their singles have been so bad in the US over the last couple years. Thanks

The US chart until recently has been based almost entirely on radio airplay. Single sales did not really impact the chart. Even with downloads now that are popular, you need to have strong airplay in order to chart high.

Is the UK chart based on single sales, radio airplay, or a combination of both?
 
So the UK chart isn't based on airplay at all? If Billboard doesn't really account for sales info then I guess there really is no accurate chart that considers everything. I know of a US chart called the ARC top 40 that claims to represent "weekly sales, radio airplay, and video play". It only keeps track of the top 40. On this chart the #'s are a little different:

Beautiful Day #4
Stuck In A Moment #18
Walk On #29

Elecrical Storm #27

Vertigo #18
Sometimes #20
City of Blinding Lights didn't chart
All Because of You didn't chart

To me this seems more accurate, as to me the #1 judge of single should be radio play then downloads then sales then video play. Very few people actually go out and buy a single and a song may be popular on the radio but not in video play. I tend to trust this chart more than the Billboard chart becuse it seems to be accurate based on my perception of how big a song is.
 
For example Vertigo was #31 in Bb hot 100 but in that period there weren't counted the legal downloads....and Vertigo was the #1 song downloaded for 2 or 3 week in Us...i think Vertigo could arrive in top 15 Bb with downloads!
 
Does the Billboard Hot 100 today include dowloads and when did it start doing that if it does? Sometimes being #97 is pathetic any way you look at it.
 
cjboog said:
Does the Billboard Hot 100 today include dowloads and when did it start doing that if it does? Sometimes being #97 is pathetic any way you look at it.

I think right after Vertigo's chart run was finished they started to use downloads. Sometimes got very little radio airplay, so the general public really was not aware of the song.

In terms of airplay in the United States, U2 keeps on falling in this area. On POP, Discotheque made it to #22 in Airplay, Staring At The Sun #16, Last Night On Earth #74. But then on ATYCLB, Beautiful Day made it to #19, Stuck in A Moment #56 while the other singles failed to make the chart. Now with HTDAAB, the only song to crack the Billboard top 75 airplay songs was Vertigo at #30.

Its incredible how many albums the band is able to sell despite the lack of radio airplay.
 
Sting2 Have you got a complete list of U2's performances on the Hot 100 Airplay Chart?Thanks
 
cjboog said:
To me this seems more accurate, as to me the #1 judge of single should be radio play then downloads then sales then video play. Very few people actually go out and buy a single and a song may be popular on the radio but not in video play.

I disagree here. People are certainly willing to pay to download songs. It's one thing to play a song on radio, but I'd like to know how many people like a song enough that they are willing to go out and buy/download the song. I think that's a truer measure of a song's popularity than whether or not it makes some pre-determined radio playlists.
 
Axver said:


I disagree here. People are certainly willing to pay to download songs. It's one thing to play a song on radio, but I'd like to know how many people like a song enough that they are willing to go out and buy/download the song. I think that's a truer measure of a song's popularity than whether or not it makes some pre-determined radio playlists.

Well...I agree with you to an extent. The radio is the number 1 place where people hear music, and thus I think it the most important factor. Downloading/buying songs is also important though.
 
04072511 said:
Sting2 Have you got a complete list of U2's performances on the Hot 100 Airplay Chart?Thanks

I don't have a complete list. From the songs I have already listed, I know that both "With Or With Out You" and "I Still Havn't Found What I'm Looking For" have hit #1 on the Hot 100 Airplay chart.

Desire #5
One #7
Mysterious Ways #11

Those are the only other ones I can remember off hand.
 
So is the reason their singles don't even break the top 20 any more just a sign of chaging trends in music? In the case of Sometimes, COBL, and ABOY it doesn't make sense. If Bomb had had a strong second single in the US I think it would hav easily surpassed ATYLB in sales. These songs were hits overseas and yet they didn't even make a sound on the US charts.
 
04072511 said:
Sting2 Have you got a complete list of U2's performances on the Hot 100 Airplay Chart?Thanks

I don't have the airplay chart off the top of my head, but these are all of U2's songs that have charted on the Billboard Hot 100, which is the primary singles chart in the US.

I Will Follow (81)
Pride (33)
With Or Without You (1)
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For (1)
Where The Streets Have No Name (13)
In God's Country (44)
Desire (3)
Angel Of Harlem (14)
When Love Comes To Town (68)
All I Want Is You (83)
The Fly (61)
Mysterious Ways (9)
One (10)
Even Better Than The Real Thing (32)
Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses (35)
Stay (Faraway, So Close!) (61)
Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me (16)
Discotheque (10)
Staring At The Sun (26)
Last Night On Earth (57)
Sweetest Thing (63)
Beautiful Day (21)
Stuck In A Moment You Can't Get Out Of (52)
Electrical Storm (77)
Vertigo (31)
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own (97)
 
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I think that U2 are aware that the singles market in the US is crappy and thus they only push the first single off of an album. The rest they leave to flounder on radio.

This kind of bothers me. I think that U2 should try to make more of an impact on the singles charts. It has been mentioned by severa;l others in the past that U2's marketing team in the US continously drop the ball.
 
phanan said:


I don't have the airplay chart off the top of my head, but these are all of U2's songs that have charted on the Billboard Hot 100, which is the primary singles chart in the US.

I Will Follow (81)
Pride (33)
With Or Without You (1)
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For (1)
Where The Streets Have No Name (13)
In God's Country (44)
Desire (3)
Angel Of Harlem (14)
When Love Comes To Town (68)
All I Want Is You (83)
The Fly (61)
Mysterious Ways (9)
One (10)
Even Better Than The Real Thing (32)
Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses (35)
Stay (Faraway, So Close!) (61)
Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me (16)
Discotheque (10)
Staring At The Sun (26)
Last Night On Earth (57)
Sweetest Thing (63)
Beautiful Day (21)
Stuck In A Moment You Can't Get Out Of (52)
Electrical Storm (77)
Vertigo (31)
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own (97)

Add New Years Day (hit #53) which was U2's first charted single on Billboard and this is the complete American top 100 list.

Interesting to note that the version of I Will Follow that charted was a live version.

Longest hot 100 chart run, according to my book, which is not up to date was 20 weeks for both Mysterious Ways (#9) and One (#10) which were back to back releases. Which, one could argue was U2's second most popular run on the American charts in their history from Nov 91 to March 92.

The most popular American run has to be the Joshua Treee singles which saw WOWY hit #1, SHF hit #1 then Streets all from March 1987 to Sep 87.

It's been hard for almost all rock bands to have singles success in America for well over a decade.
 
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Beautiful Day was in the charts for 25 weeks i think! Maybe it was 26!
 
And there's a chart of the next 25 songs that aren't in the Top 100........Heatseekers or something or other:

#101 Two Hearts Beat As One
#101 All Because Of You
#103 Lemon
#116 Elevation
#118 Walk On
 
Billboard's Hot 100 chart keeps changing. Decades ago, it reflected jukebox play!

Sadly, for "Vertigo", the song didn't chart higher as Billboard didn't count legal downloads (when they did, "Vertigo", which was already dropping into the lower half of the chart, rose by over 20 spots!). Had Billboard counted downloads, I have a feeling "Vertigo" would have been a Top 10 hit.

"Beautiful Day" - as all other post 1998 singles - suffered because U2's label stopped releasing singles in the U.S. While "Discotheque" went Gold, apparently the other singles didn't fair as well from "Pop". The label claimed it wasn't worth the cost - hence no singles. Without any sort of CD or legal download sales to help, the songs had to chart on airplay alone.

Billboard's formula keeps changing. For a while, airplay didn't mean much, then it meant a TON, now it's back down a bit. They never reveal the exact formula, but give hints. Nonetheless, I feel that's it's not always fair to compare eras - even years - because Billboard changes the rules. I understand the need to change (after all, jukeboxes mean nothing now and downloads mean tons), but given how ridiculously popular "Beautiful Day" and "Vertigo" were, I don't think their respective chart positions are truly accurate. Had there been a CD single or downloads, both songs easily would have charted in the Top 20, if not Top 10.

That said, as another pointed out, it seems U2 pushes the first single and then that's it. "Pop" generated three top 60 hits, two in the Top 30 and one in the Top 10! For a "flop" of an album, its singles did far better than anything from ATYCLB or HTDAAB. This is because all those songs had CD singles, which helped the songs chart better. But those songs also received a good amount of airplay, which new U2 doesn't. Given the massive sales U2 has, the ridiculously popular tours, the numerous awards and the fact that any song promoted on radio is a hit, it always surprises me that radio stations don't play more U2. Oh well.

At least now we can look forward to a potential Top 10 hit from a new album (or new U2 song)!
 
doctorwho said:
Billboard's Hot 100 chart keeps changing. Decades ago, it reflected jukebox play!

Sadly, for "Vertigo", the song didn't chart higher as Billboard didn't count legal downloads (when they did, "Vertigo", which was already dropping into the lower half of the chart, rose by over 20 spots!). Had Billboard counted downloads, I have a feeling "Vertigo" would have been a Top 10 hit.

"Beautiful Day" - as all other post 1998 singles - suffered because U2's label stopped releasing singles in the U.S. While "Discotheque" went Gold, apparently the other singles didn't fair as well from "Pop". The label claimed it wasn't worth the cost - hence no singles. Without any sort of CD or legal download sales to help, the songs had to chart on airplay alone.

Billboard's formula keeps changing. For a while, airplay didn't mean much, then it meant a TON, now it's back down a bit. They never reveal the exact formula, but give hints. Nonetheless, I feel that's it's not always fair to compare eras - even years - because Billboard changes the rules. I understand the need to change (after all, jukeboxes mean nothing now and downloads mean tons), but given how ridiculously popular "Beautiful Day" and "Vertigo" were, I don't think their respective chart positions are truly accurate. Had there been a CD single or downloads, both songs easily would have charted in the Top 20, if not Top 10.

That said, as another pointed out, it seems U2 pushes the first single and then that's it. "Pop" generated three top 60 hits, two in the Top 30 and one in the Top 10! For a "flop" of an album, its singles did far better than anything from ATYCLB or HTDAAB. This is because all those songs had CD singles, which helped the songs chart better. But those songs also received a good amount of airplay, which new U2 doesn't. Given the massive sales U2 has, the ridiculously popular tours, the numerous awards and the fact that any song promoted on radio is a hit, it always surprises me that radio stations don't play more U2. Oh well.

At least now we can look forward to a potential Top 10 hit from a new album (or new U2 song)!

The formula just prior to the inclusion of download sales data did not really count sales data at all. It was possible a year and a half ago to hit #1 on the HOT 100 with just airplay and no single sales at all. Single sales were a very marginal and pratically irrelevant factor in chart postion on the HOT 100 from 2000 to the end of 2004. Thats why U2 did not release singles in the USA. Prior to this, chart position was based on both sales and airplay equally. That was the system as late as 1997. The system changed sometime between 1998 and 2000 when the HOT 100 essentially became the HOT 100 Airplay chart.

That system made sense because no one was buying physical singles and fewer artist were releasing them in the USA. Now with the popularity of I-tunes, single song downloads, I believe a system resembling the old formula has returned.

I think the important chart to really watch though is the Top 75 Airplay monitor chart which is the airplay chart used for the HOT 100. Radio airplay is still the biggest determining factor in terms of album sales and now single downloads. Video play of new video's at normal hours of the day happens so rarely that it could be argued an artist could skip making a video since their impact is so limited now in the USA. Touring will always bring an increase in sales, but in the way a top 10 radio airplay hit can.
 
why is there a bon jovi song (Who Says You Can't Go Home) at #32 on the hot 100?

it isnt even their first single off current album, yet is doing just as well on the hot 100 as Vertigo did!
i hadnt even heard of the song, it probably wont even make the charts anywhere else.
 
The song is #6 on Hot Country Tracks and has been gaining airplay in the last 2 or 3 months. It's hard to believe, but Who Says You Can't Go Home is Bon Jovi's highest charting song in over a decade. The song was #13 in national airplay on the most recent media guide chart. Anyway, back to U2...

Ok someone please clarify, I am a little confused:

1. Is the UK Top 40 chart based on purely sales, or is airplay a factor?

2. When did the Billboard Hot 100 start including digital downloads in determining chart position?
 
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UK Chart is sales only, including downloads. But downloads only count once the physical single is released.

Hot 100 started including downloads around february 2005 I think.
 
STING2 said:


The formula just prior to the inclusion of download sales data did not really count sales data at all. It was possible a year and a half ago to hit #1 on the HOT 100 with just airplay and no single sales at all. Single sales were a very marginal and pratically irrelevant factor in chart postion on the HOT 100 from 2000 to the end of 2004. Thats why U2 did not release singles in the USA. Prior to this, chart position was based on both sales and airplay equally. That was the system as late as 1997. The system changed sometime between 1998 and 2000 when the HOT 100 essentially became the HOT 100 Airplay chart.

That system made sense because no one was buying physical singles and fewer artist were releasing them in the USA. Now with the popularity of I-tunes, single song downloads, I believe a system resembling the old formula has returned.

I think the important chart to really watch though is the Top 75 Airplay monitor chart which is the airplay chart used for the HOT 100. Radio airplay is still the biggest determining factor in terms of album sales and now single downloads. Video play of new video's at normal hours of the day happens so rarely that it could be argued an artist could skip making a video since their impact is so limited now in the USA. Touring will always bring an increase in sales, but in the way a top 10 radio airplay hit can.

That's not completely true Sting2.

Remember the American Idol (AI) kids. The winner of each season would release a single (as would the second place contestant). The sales of that single - due to the massive exposure of AI - would be tremendous. While U2 and many other artists don't release CD singles, they still are out there in the U.S. - and these AI kids have some of the best CD single sales ever! The massive amounts of sales the first few weeks would be enough to push the song to #1 on the Hot 100 charts - even though airplay was heavily factored.

So while a song could and would reach #1 based on airplay alone, and while Billboard for a while tremendously discounted sales (as I actually wrote in my first post), sales never disappeared. If an artist had huge CD single sales (and we're talking sales of over 100,000 copies in a week - sometimes more like 200-400K!), even if the airplay wasn't there yet, the sales would be enough.

Now with iTunes and other sources, sales certainly play a big role. Coldplay's first single zoomed up to #8 on the charts based on sales alone - then dropped. Only later, after airplay finally kicked in did the song rise again on the charts. I would imagine that U2's next single might finally break into the Top 10 (as "Beautiful Day" and "Vertigo" should have done) because they'll have sales to help this time.
 
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