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Old 07-17-2012, 05:36 PM   #501
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The problem here is in determining how far that culture of complicity extends and who exactly is culpable. I've said this before, but the culture of sports worship that enabled this travesty extends far, far beyond Penn State. It has enveloped the entirety of Division I sports, a great deal of the corporate world, and a significant amount of the media and fanbase as well. We're deluding ourselves if we think that Penn State is only place where such a thing is capable of happening.
I think it's common knowledge among even casual sports fans that Division I college sports has a long history of corrupt programs involving everything from recruiting violations and eligibility fudging to point shaving and even an attempt to cover up a murder at Baylor. But Penn State was supposed to be the exception, the shining example for all to see that a school could follow the rules and play by the book and have true student athletes who actually graduated on time, and yet they could still win and compete for national championships year after year. And Joe Paterno was supposed to be the coach who could preach honor and integrity but still land the best recruits without having to pay them under the table. I think that is why there has been such a visceral reaction to this story. If this had happened at Florida State or USC or Ohio State there certainly would have been a reaction because of the horrific details of the crimes, but I just don't think it would have been as shocking had it happened at another school. There have been rumors over the years that the Penn State football players were not clean cut All-American choir boys and the friendly local small-town police swept a lot of their rowdy behavior under the rug. And Paterno's reputation took a hit over the last decade with his refusal to retire when it was clearly past time to do so. But even so, Penn State maintained their reputation as the 'good school'. Does punishing Penn State mean that there will never be another scandal at another school? Absolutely not. But that is not a reason to not punish them for very serious transgressions.

Is it fair that by enacting punishment on the school the NCAA will be punishing players and students and fans who had nothing to do with this? No, it is not. But, as others have stated, that's what happens anytime the NCAA enacts sanctions on a school for violations. Those are the NCAA rules and every school that operates under the NCAA knows it. The argument that they shouldn't sanction Penn State because the people who broke the rules are already gone and they are being investigated for crimes is simply not tenable under current NCAA rules.
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:16 PM   #502
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Is it fair that by enacting punishment on the school the NCAA will be punishing players and students and fans who had nothing to do with this? No, it is not. But, as others have stated, that's what happens anytime the NCAA enacts sanctions on a school for violations. Those are the NCAA rules and every school that operates under the NCAA knows it. The argument that they shouldn't sanction Penn State because the people who broke the rules are already gone and they are being investigated for crimes is simply not tenable under current NCAA rules.
Then maybe this is the perfect time to reevaluate and revise the NCAA's role in collegiate athletics. I don't see why the status quo needs to be accepted right now, especially pertaining to an institution like the NCAA that has hardly been a beacon of success. Some would go so far as to call it an abject failure and an embarrassment.
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Old 07-20-2012, 09:25 AM   #503
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Because there is no one who wants to destroy the statue who lives anywhere close to it.
This is probably the most telling post about the state of mind of this "community" that I've read on the entire thread.

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Old 07-20-2012, 11:46 AM   #504
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I am not saying people don't want it down, I am saying there is no one in central PA who would take to vandalism to tear it down. Calm yourself.
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Old 07-20-2012, 12:19 PM   #505
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Any truth to this, Peef?

Reports: Penn State Plans To Take Down The Paterno Statue This Weekend [UPDATE]

EDIT: never mind, I suppose not:

http://deadspin.com/5927764/penn-sta...paterno-statue

They had the right idea for a second there.
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Old 07-20-2012, 12:22 PM   #506
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I am not saying people don't want it down, I am saying there is no one in central PA who would take to vandalism to tear it down. Calm yourself.

But there's a few in Central PA who would take to camping out in front of it to protect it, right?

Anyways, I think "calm yourself" is a bit funny coming from someone who's written as..vehemently..as you have on this subject. But that's likely just me.
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Old 07-20-2012, 12:24 PM   #507
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They had the right idea for a second there.
I loved this comment:

FreemanMcNeil 2 minutes ago
Ryan McCombie said "We did no such thing"

You would think Penn State officials would come up with a new line of defense eventually....

...
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:54 PM   #508
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But there's a few in Central PA who would take to camping out in front of it to protect it, right?

Anyways, I think "calm yourself" is a bit funny coming from someone who's written as..vehemently..as you have on this subject. But that's likely just me.
I counted three. What exactly is your point?

If you think I'm being irrational, you're sadly mistaken. My arguments make quite a bit of sense. If you want to respond to those, by all means do so.

Or you can keep standing above it all, holier-than-thou, acting as if Penn State is populated by mindless inbreds who only care about football and would prefer everyone just leave us alone and let us decide how to police ourselves when children are getting raped. Sure, go with that. I'm sure it'll make you feel more satisfied at the end of the day to think, "God, at least we're not like those people."

If that's not satisfying enough, I'm sure a snarky reply to this post will do the job just fine.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:55 PM   #509
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I don't think you have thought of the ramifications very deeply, Headache. I think you are paying them lip service and nothing more.

The death penalty is a stupid concept because it punishes everyone but the actual criminals. At least in martina's examples the actual criminals are getting charged. They already have been here.

Shutting down football would do nothing but allow all of you to pat yourself on the back and say, "Those fucks at Penn State didn't have the integrity to shut it down, but we did."

I ask again: who does the death penalty punish that did anything wrong?
Well you think wrong.

I know what shutting down football could do to the community. I also know that it could happen to the school and community as well.

I still say shut it down.

I understand how close you are to the situation, and you've made it obvious that you don't want anyone's sympathy. I also know that nothing I'm going to say is going to change your mind.

And that's fine.

You think my opinion is lip service? That I haven't thought out the ramifications of what the death penalty would do? Okay. You're wrong, but okay.

If the NCAA doesn't drop the hammer on Penn State, then the NCAA is a spineless, gutless bunch of whores... which I already know that they are.

Like has been already said... good people worked for Goldman Sachs. Good people worked for Enron. Good people work for the Catholic Church, and for Catholic schools that are being shuttered throughout the country due to shrinking enrollment and no money to operate. Good people are collateral damage to the punishment of criminals every single day. It's regrettable, but it isn't a reason to NOT punish somebody for their crimes.

The athletic institution at Penn State was DIRECTLY involved in the covering up, and enabling, of the systematic rape of dozens of children over at least a 15 year time period, if not longer. Only a fool would think that the coverup involved only the AD, the football coach, the president and the head of security... and nobody else.

If ever there was an example of an utter and complete loss of institutional control, this is it. The NCAA is in place to provide oversight on NCAA institutions. It is their job to punish problem schools. In egregious situations, that punishment includes the eliminating of programs.

I think we all agree that the Sandusky/Penn State football scandal is the single worst scandal in the history of college athletics. If they do not get the worst punishment possible, it's a joke.

Shut them down.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:01 PM   #510
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Well you think wrong.

I know what shutting down football could do to the community. I also know that it could happen to the school and community as well.

I still say shut it down.

I understand how close you are to the situation, and you've made it obvious that you don't want anyone's sympathy. I also know that nothing I'm going to say is going to change your mind.

And that's fine.

You think my opinion is lip service? That I haven't thought out the ramifications of what the death penalty would do? Okay. You're wrong, but okay.

If the NCAA doesn't drop the hammer on Penn State, then the NCAA is a spineless, gutless bunch of whores... which I already know that they are.

Like has been already said... good people worked for Goldman Sachs. Good people worked for Enron. Good people are collateral damage to the punishment of criminals every single day. It's regrettable, but it isn't a reason to NOT punish somebody for their crimes.

The athletic institution at Penn State was DIRECTLY involved in the covering up, and enabling, of the systematic rape of dozens of children over at least a 15 year time period, if not longer. Only a fool would think that the coverup involved only the AD, the football coach, the president and the head of security... and nobody else.

If ever there was an example of an utter and complete loss of institutional control, this is it. The NCAA is in place to provide oversight on NCAA institutions. It is their job to punish problem schools. In egregious situations, that punishment includes the eliminating of programs.

I think we all agree that the Sandusky/Penn State football scandal is the single worst scandal in the history of college athletics. If they do not get the worst punishment possible, it's a joke.

Shut them down.
How many more people do you think were involved? I think that's the important question here. I don't think it was beyond more than a few people. Certainly not just those four.

I think the worst thing about the NCAA is that it only punishes players and universities, and never coaches and administrators. I want them to nail every one of the fuckers involved in this. But just the ones involved.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

The death penalty is a terrible concept. You can right the ship without it. The most important thing, after all, is making sure this never happens again, right? So, let's go about restructuring shit so that it never will. No one will accept Penn State being a secretive institution anymore.

Just because the NCAA has punished universities after the offending parties left in the past does not make it right.

The death penalty is great PR for the NCAA, making people like you satisfied with the outcome. No one is going to feel sorry for people like me who fed into a culture of football obsession that enabled child rape. But that's all it is: it's PR.

If the NCAA drops the hammer on Penn State, it's simply trying to please all the people who won't be affected. I think that is spineless and gutless.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:14 PM   #511
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Or you can keep standing above it all, holier-than-thou, acting as if Penn State is populated by mindless inbreds who only care about football and would prefer everyone just leave us alone and let us decide how to police ourselves when children are getting raped. Sure, go with that. I'm sure it'll make you feel more satisfied at the end of the day to think, "God, at least we're not like those people."

If that's not satisfying enough, I'm sure a snarky reply to this post will do the job just fine.
From the guy telling the other guy to calm down.....

You're right about one thing: I'm not like the people who would protect that statue. I'm not anything like the people that don't mind it staying there, either.

I'm ok with that
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:22 PM   #512
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I believe coaches should be punished when their program is caught doing things that are wrong. John Calipari disgusts me.

I believe any student, athlete or otherwise, who wants to transfer should be able to do so without penalty, and any costs paid for, and any help needed given, by the university.

I still believe that institutions can and should be punished. Harshly, when necessary. I actually think it's disgraceful that Baylor didn't get the death penalty.

How deep did it go? The janitors knew, the president knew. How many in between? We don't know yet. Nobody does. But do we really think the rest of the athletic administration didn't have an idea? I know this... there's no way I'd allow a student athlete I'm associated with to go to Penn State.

I do think that in the best interest of student athletes who weren't involved that they should let them play this season, with a post season ban. It's too late for them to transfer now. But after that, I think they should be shut down. Not permanently, but for at least a season.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:26 PM   #513
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I think the worst part of this for me is that if this never happened, and we were over in the NCAA thread talking about recruiting violations or point shaving or any number of other so-called gross violations, the same parties to this discussion saying "no don't make Penn St football collateral damage" would be calling for at least a temporary ban on the program(s) involved.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #514
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I find it bizarre that the two are being compared so closely. That one is somehow on the same path as the other, higher and lower points on the same ladder.

The precedent argument falls apart every time because this is on a different plane from all other scandals we've seen. I facepalm every time someone says "well two years to SMU for one thing so two years to Penn State for something else entirely derp." If you're going to punish Penn State, don't dole out the same penalty for a radically different crime. I have no idea what they should do, but SMU = Penn State doesn't fly with me.

Whereas I was anti-death penalty before, I'm increasingly neutral on the topic, because I've come to realize the root of the problem extends far beyond Penn State. In a way, I think punishing them is one step towards a greater good. Making an example of them sets a precedent in this situation that will make dealing with similar scandals a great deal simpler. But I hope we go further than that and start to evaluate the role of the NCAA in these situations, and on an individual basis begin to regard athletics properly. There's a whole bunch of shit we have to fix that has very little to do with Penn State specifically. To that end, the penalty is nothing personal. But of course it is, because we're fucking over a whole university.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:52 PM   #515
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I get what you're saying, but isn't that the very essence of the problem? That the entire culture of the school basically depends on the football program? That hitting the football program cripples the university entirely? Is it a school, or a football camp?
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:55 PM   #516
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A member and former chairman of the Penn State board of trustees resigned on Thursday, becoming the first board member to do so in the wake of the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse scandal.

...

After the report's release, trustees accepted responsibility for a failure of oversight and said they were "deeply ashamed." Board Chairwoman Karen Peetz, who announced Garban's resignation in a letter on the board's website, said at the time that no trustee would step down, however.
This is an excellent example of institutional failure. Why is he the first to quit? The rest are siting around biding their time and hoping that they end up getting re-elected at a later point? Why did they all not take responsibility and immediately say that they would be resigning, in an orderly fashion in order to permit the University to find competent replacements? Instead they took the position that nobody is stepping down. Just another symptom of institutional failure.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:01 PM   #517
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That hitting the football program cripples the university entirely? Is it a school, or a football camp?
Peef makes it sound like the latter, tbh.

Which by no means requires intervention, until it starts to put others in harm's way. I certainly get the death penalty argument. It's just some of the logic being thrown around that I get hung up on.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:32 PM   #518
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It's one of the top public universities in the fucking country. Of course it's a school.

But the economy of the surrounding areas: the hotels, the restaurants, the clothes shops, the taxi drivers ... they all depend on having huge numbers of people seven or eight times every year.

Students get jobs working for the football team. Like me. My career depends on being able to cover Penn State athletics for media outlets.

That's what I'm saying.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:39 PM   #519
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My career depends on being able to cover Penn State athletics for media outlets.
I don't mean to minimize it but surely other people end up having careers in your field without the benefit of having covered Big 10 athletic teams? I mean I know some of those people so obviously it does happen. And you've had 3 years of experience there - you can't possibly think that your career is over before you've even walked out the door, even if a death penalty happens this September (probably unlikely)? I just think that's an unwarranted pessimistic view.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:02 PM   #520
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But the economy of the surrounding areas: the hotels, the restaurants, the clothes shops, the taxi drivers ... they all depend on having huge numbers of people seven or eight times every year.
Yes, a thousand times yes to this. This is exactly why you cannot pull the rug out from the program, because all of these people will suffer, in the middle of a bloody economic crisis no less. I am all for gradually reducing the influence of collegiate sports on colleges themselves (not just at Penn State, but everywhere), but doing it with one stroke of the sword will not accomplish anything worthwhile.
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