NFL Thread III

[LuckyNumber7]

But the argument you’re making for Bill’s maintained success can easily be equally attributed to having a stable star QB. It’s the single most important position in the game and determines whether or not you have a team. Any team that has had a star QB like Brady has been good at maintaining success. This argument ends up circular if we are simply saying winning defines who is the GOAT unless we also talk about who is losing.

You’re right, both can be GOATs, that’s not unfair to say. But you can really only start to compare them when they’re separated. Without Brady, we have a few samples of Bill. Two seasons over .500 with playoff appearances and then like 5 seasons of missing the playoffs. When we do the same for Brady, so far it looks to me like Brady isn’t all that different with or without Belichick.

So, sure. Bill can still be the HC GOAT. I just really think what separates Bill from the rest is Tom Brady, and I’m not so sure the reverse is true.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Should henceforth be known in Bills history as the "Hold My Beer" play.

Only to be trumped by going for two, missing, and then getting your onside kick down 17 lmao.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Yea I mean I'm clearly not as impressed by a 3 INT performance against a team that shit the bed at every opportunity as you are.

Brady went to a team with mondo weapons in a weak NFC. They beat the worst playoff team ever, a team with a noodle armed QB, and a historically choking team that choked. And wouldn't ya know they get to the Super Bowl and it's a home game.

Sorry if I'm not ready to write off Belichick based on this.

But since you brought it up - yes, the Pats had a down year this season.

Their record from 2001 on without Brady in the lineup was 14-6. So saying he's just a .500 coach without Brady's just a tad unfair.

In Cleveland he had a playoff team that was turning the corner before the owner pulled the rug out from underneath him with the announcement that they were headed to Baltimore. The last Browns playoff win before this season was by a Belichick coached team.

 

[MrPryck2U]

JInx Time:

KC 45
TB 24

 

[Hewson]

Why in the name of Favre did they not go for it on 4th down?

The Packers board of governors or Mikal's family or whoever makes these type decisions up there should have used the 2 minute warning in that game to vote to fire Matt LaFleur on the spot and have him unceremoniously dragged out of Lambeau.
What a chicken shit call kicking that FG.

 

[phanan]

Looking forward to an entertaining Super Bowl and a fascinating offseason.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Yea I mean I'm clearly not as impressed by a 3 INT performance against a team that shit the bed at every opportunity as you are.

Brady went to a team with mondo weapons in a weak NFC. They beat the worst playoff team ever, a team with a noodle armed QB, and a historically choking team that choked. And wouldn't ya know they get to the Super Bowl and it's a home game.

Sorry if I'm not ready to write off Belichick based on this.

But since you brought it up - yes, the Pats had a down year this season.

Their record from 2001 on without Brady in the lineup was 14-6. So saying he's just a .500 coach without Brady's just a tad unfair.

In Cleveland he had a playoff team that was turning the corner before the owner pulled the rug out from underneath him with the announcement that they were headed to Baltimore. The last Browns playoff win before this season was by a Belichick coached team.

A 3 INT performance where his team never trailed and was up by 17 at half time. Remove that 4th quarter and it was a star performance by Brady. So, you could argue that it was in fact Tom Brady who took away any hope for GB and then literally was responsible for giving it back. Regardless, he came out victorious.

Good lord Tom Brady played his entire career without this long list of receiving weapons on one team and has proven that throughout his career with or without weapons he can win. To somehow try and pass his TB success off to his receivers, who didn’t exactly bring great success to Brady’s predecessors in Tampa, is silly.

Lastly, I don’t know how you’re going to quote 14-6 and try to sell that, and totally conveniently fail to include the peripheries of Brady. Yes, Bill put together an 11-5 season with Matt Cassel in 2008. It was impressive. It was also the 16-0 Patriots follow-on season when Brady went down, and undoubtedly the best unit the Patriots have had, with both Wes Welker and Randy Moss. The team also didn’t make the playoffs - any Dolphins fan remembers this.

But you conveniently decided to just ignore the peripheral years when you said 14-6. In 2001, Brady took over after an 0-2 start from Drew Bledsoe. You know, the year after Bill led the team to a 5-11 record with Bledsoe? And after Brady left, 7-9. But find me a single year Brady has struggled...

 

[lazarus]

[tweet]1353540660289277952[/tweet]

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

I won a pretty decent amount of money today. And it's already guaranteed to be a profitable Super Bowl for me because I picked up Tampa Bay ($5 to payout $50) and Chiefs ($25 to payout $75) futures tickets earlier in the season.

I can get used to this sports gambling thing. So glad they legalized the books in Illinois.

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

And yes, during that fateful sequence it never once even crossed my mind that the Packers would attempt a field goal. It was always 4 down territory. Was shocked and happy when the camera cut to the field goal unit setting up. Absolutely horrendous call.

 

[LemonMelon]

The Chiefs are built different. I've never seen an offense this impossible to clamp down. Not the 1999-2001 Rams, not the 2007 Patriots, not the 2013-2015 Broncos. The Bucs could go up 14 in the Super Bowl and I would still fully expect the Chiefs to win by two scores. The 2018-2020 Chiefs is definitely the most transcendent run any offense has had.

The only way the Bucs win is if they rack up a bunch of turnovers and cash in on every single one. Taylor Heinecke made that secondary look amateur; I can only imagine that Reid drawing up schemes for Mahomes, Tyreek, Kelce, etc. will run a track meet over them. It's up to the defense to give the offense more chances to score on short fields.

 

[bono_212]

I'm curious to know what the logic was from LaFleur. I haven't really felt like reading anything yet as far as postmortems go. I'm not going to say I agree with it, but I'd like to know if there was some analytic reason for the choice. I can accept the fact that newer coaches are going in a more analytical decision, and hell, maybe that's what happened here. But regardless, I hate the choice. Hate hate hate it.

So, yeah. A lot of reasons for the loss, most of which is that, it just keeps happening and I'm sure that's going to follow Rodgers for the rest of time, just like Manning.

I don't have much else to say. Obviously I'm feeling down about it, and I really do hate how that game was officiated. Would've been nice if the team hadn't done so many dumbass things at the game that took the conversation away from that, but they did, which makes the responsibility for all of this squarely on their shoulders.

Yea I mean I'm clearly not as impressed by a 3 INT performance against a team that shit the bed at every opportunity as you are.

Brady went to a team with mondo weapons in a weak NFC. They beat the worst playoff team ever, a team with a noodle armed QB, and a historically choking team that choked. And wouldn't ya know they get to the Super Bowl and it's a home game.

Sorry if I'm not ready to write off Belichick based on this.

But since you brought it up - yes, the Pats had a down year this season.

Their record from 2001 on without Brady in the lineup was 14-6. So saying he's just a .500 coach without Brady's just a tad unfair.

In Cleveland he had a playoff team that was turning the corner before the owner pulled the rug out from underneath him with the announcement that they were headed to Baltimore. The last Browns playoff win before this season was by a Belichick coached team.

All of that.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Given that “all of that” is a response to me, perhaps unintentionally, I’d appreciate if you’re going to participate that you don’t just seem to entirely neglect the response to “all of that” because it feels sort of dismissive.

 

[Sickly Vulpine]

One, two, Brady's coming for you....

 

[Hewson]

Given that “all of that” is a response to me, perhaps unintentionally, I’d appreciate if you’re going to participate that you don’t just seem to entirely neglect the response to “all of that” because it feels sort of dismissive.

Its just her way of saying Peyton Manning is still better than Brady in her eyes.

 

[mikal]

I'm curious to know what the logic was from LaFleur. I haven't really felt like reading anything yet as far as postmortems go. I'm not going to say I agree with it, but I'd like to know if there was some analytic reason for the choice. I can accept the fact that newer coaches are going in a more analytical decision, and hell, maybe that's what happened here. But regardless, I hate the choice. Hate hate hate it.

So, yeah. A lot of reasons for the loss, most of which is that, it just keeps happening and I'm sure that's going to follow Rodgers for the rest of time, just like Manning.

I don't have much else to say. Obviously I'm feeling down about it, and I really do hate how that game was officiated. Would've been nice if the team hadn't done so many dumbass things at the game that took the conversation away from that, but they did, which makes the responsibility for all of this squarely on their shoulders.



All of that.

Yeah I mean it's one of those judgement calls where if the Packers didn't get it on 4th down, then you'd wish you had the 3 points and a chance to stop them.

Hate to say it, as much as I appreciate everything Rodgers has done for Green Bay, the guy is not good in championship games. He wasn't good enough yesterday. The game clearly swung in GB's favor after those Brady picks and we went 3 and put twice. You can't do that in a Championship game. Sure there were a lot of factors that caused the Packers to lose, but once again I came away underwhelmed by Rodgers. If the Jordan Love Era starts next season, I'm not going to be crushed having all of that salary cap space to bulk up the roster even more.

 

[Jerry Dunk]

Andy Reid was held back in Philadelphia by an incompetent front office.

 

[Hewson]

Yeah I mean it's one of those judgement calls where if the Packers didn't get it on 4th down, then you'd wish you had the 3 points and a chance to stop them.

Yeah but if you failed on 4th, you have TB pinned at the 8 yard line (or closer if you complete a pass short of the goal line), so you increase your odds if you do stop them.
You had to stop them either way, if you stop them and they have 17 extra yards (or more depending on kick return) of field position, it makes scoring that much harder in a short time span even though you have removed the conversion from the equation. You're at the 8 yard line, you have to go for it on 4th down.
Had Wroggers been been sacked on 3rd down back at the 18 or something, then I can make an argument for the field goal, but at the 8, kicking that FG is a fire-able offense for LaFleur. Its his Grady Little moment.

 

[Hewson]

Andy Reid was held back in Philadelphia by an incompetent front office.

Counter point, he was held back by Donovan McNabb, and was held back for a while in KC by Alex Smith.
Now he has Patrick Mahomes.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Two different beasts though. He was held back by McNabb in that McNabb choked. Smith didn’t choke, he was never the star QB that carried his team like McNabb was.

 

[DeVaul]

My joy was listening to Boston sports radio this morning talk in deafeated tones about how “who’d want to go to the Patriots?” “They’d be my 7th choice, I’d rather be on the Jets” and “it’s obvious who the real magic was all those years and now he’s gone.”

 

[mikal]

Yeah but if you failed on 4th, you have TB pinned at the 8 yard line (or closer if you complete a pass short of the goal line), so you increase your odds if you do stop them.

You had to stop them either way, if you stop them and they have 17 extra yards (or more depending on kick return) of field position, it makes scoring that much harder in a short time span even though you have removed the conversion from the equation. You're at the 8 yard line, you have to go for it on 4th down.

Had Wroggers been been sacked on 3rd down back at the 18 or something, then I can make an argument for the field goal, but at the 8, kicking that FG is a fire-able offense for LaFleur. Its his Grady Little moment.

Oh yeah I agree. I guess I'm just not as outraged as everyone else because I was already pissed off at the team's inability to get more than 6 points off of 3 turnovers in the 2nd half. If we had scored a TD there and a 2 point, I'm sure TB would have driven down the field and kicked a field goal anyway.

 

[Hewson]

My joy was listening to Boston sports radio this morning talk in deafeated tones about how “who’d want to go to the Patriots?” “They’d be my 7th choice, I’d rather be on the Jets” and “it’s obvious who the real magic was all those years and now he’s gone.”

There's plenty of doom and glom on sports talk radio here for sure. But lets be clear. The Jets are still by far the worst franchise in the NFL
They couldn't even tank properly when Trevor Lawrence was being handed to them on a platter.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Yeah I don’t know who is out there saying they’d rather play for the Jets. Maybe “I’d rather live in New York” but that’s as far as I’d go with that.

 

[Hewson]

Two different beasts though. He was held back by McNabb in that McNabb choked. Smith didn’t choke, he was never the star QB that carried his team like McNabb was.

Fair point, but my point still stands that no great coach is going to be uber successful without the talent on the field.
Some can do more with less for sure, but to win titles you need talent and usually at the most important position (QB). Obviously there are exceptions like the Ravens in 2000, but that team was so talent stacked on defense they didn't need a Brady or Mahomes (and lets not forget their opponent wasn't exactly helmed by Joe Montana),

 

[Hewson]

Yeah I don’t know who is out there saying they’d rather play for the Jets. Maybe “I’d rather live in New York” but that’s as far as I’d go with that.

There is word going around the Jets are Deshaun Watson's #1 preferred trade destination. Apparently because of Saleh.
Your Dolphins being his number 2.
Not sure I buy it.

 

[DeVaul]

There's plenty of doom and glom on sports talk radio here for sure. But lets be clear. The Jets are still by far the worst franchise in the NFL

They couldn't even tank properly when Trevor Lawrence was being handed to them on a platter.

I ain’t disagreeing! The hosts were in a hilariously sad place

 

[DaveC]

Two different beasts though. He was held back by McNabb in that McNabb choked. Smith didn’t choke, he was never the star QB that carried his team like McNabb was.

excuse me, mcnabb didn't choke either.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Strange with McNabb though, looking at his career numbers, he really wasn’t the star I remembered him as at all.

 

[LemonMelon]

McNabb was so fucking bad in Washington that I'm forever gunshy toward older FA quarterbacks. The fanbase is intrigued about Matthew Stafford and inside I'm screaming YOU'LL DOOM US ALL.