NFL Thread II

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LuckyNumber7

LuckyNumber7

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Yes, a sports thread just made it to two threads in 2019 Interference.

No, I don't see the issue with the Dolphins offloading Minkah to the Steelers. There was already too much Fitzmagic in Miami. In all seriousness though, Pittsburgh probably just traded away a top-10 pick. Minkah was drafted at 11 OA. He also asked to be traded. Lateral move.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
Why on earth would he be in the HOF discussion?
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His last name and 2 great playoff runs.

His 116-116 current record as a starter (maybe that's where it ends up now) will work against him.

But he is 7th all time in passing yards, 8th all time in pass TD's. Those look like HOF numbers, but the change in the game in recent years of course skews things and he'll get passed by some guys pretty quickly given the current state of the game.
 
Hewson said:
His last name and 2 great playoff runs.



His 116-116 current record as a starter (maybe that's where it ends up now) will work against him.



But he is 7th all time in passing yards, 8th all time in pass TD's. Those look like HOF numbers, but the change in the game in recent years of course skews things and he'll get passed by some guys pretty quickly given the current state of the game.
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Long career is not the same thing as HOF career. By all measures, he is far more of a Matt Hasselbeck or a Daunte Cullpepper or a Carson Palmer. He had a long career, thanks to his name, avoidance of injuries, and yes his two Super Bowl victories. Where he was a hero. Where he was great.

He’s 7th all time in passing yards and 6th all time in games started. And on a ya/g basis he’s not close. He played in an era where QB stats inflated, but yet he doesn’t compare to his contemporary HOF QBs like Peyton, Brees, Brady, etc.

Good QB, brought victory to NY twice, not a talent for the ages.
 
Freaking Troy Aikman is in the Hall of Fame, and somehow I'm expected to believe that he's a better QB than Brad Johnson because he won three Super Bowls and Johnson only had one? Troy Aikman was terrible. I get it, winning is important, but I'm sorry, Jay Cutler was a better QB than both of these two.

Eli is better than all three of those I just named. I genuinely don't agree with cumulative statistics as a metric for greatness. I want to know, on average how great he was, and how many times he was truly great. Most of the time, he was a textbook average QB. Much like Drew Brees, he mastered garbage time performance, hence every single season he has posted a rating above 90, the Giants have been a garbage team (except 2011). He's historically notably accurate - last year was the first time he's completed 2/3rds of his passes (done approximately 100 times). In an era where his contemporary HOF candidates exhibited TD/turnover ratios of 1.5+, Eli sits at the more subdued 1.0 mark.

He's the NFL active all time leader in interceptions; while practically all of his modern day contemporaries are setting NFL records for pass interception percentage (efficiency is up) he is near the bottom. Blake Bortles has a better pass interception percentage among active players. Currently active players that fall behind him with significant experience include Ryan Fitzpatrick, Chad Henne, Josh McCown, and Jameis Winston.

Only three seasons of Manning's career has he been in the top-10 in QBR (#8, #9, #9).

Despite being #3 in active all time leaders in games started/passes attempted, he is only better than his ranking with interceptions (#1) and fumbles (#1).

I get it, sounds like I'm totally shitting on him. Just making a point though. He had a great career, but aside from his name, his long-lived career that was injury free, and his two championships, his career is filled with basically always having 10-15 guys better than him on any given season. If that's the Hall of Fame, well, it's illegitimate.
 
the only way eli should be in the hall of fame is if they put in him in at the same time as david tyree and mario manningham.
 
Ok I'll tip toe into this one and then tip toe back out.

There are only 5 players in NFL history with multiple Super Bowl MVPs. 3 of them are already in the Hall of Fame (Montana, Bradshaw, Starr) the other two are Tom Brady and Eli Manning.

If you look at the Hall of Fame strictly on seasonal statistics, Eli falls short. The seasons since the last Super Bowl win - some of which is his fault, some of which is the fault of absolutely horrible roster building by the Giants front office - significantly weighs down what came before (which still wasn't top 5 but at least put him in the argument).

But that is not, and has never been, the whole story on who gets into the Hall.

I do think he gets in.

There are QBs in the Hall that he was better than (paging Joe Namath). There are QBs who will never make it who are better than he was.

Ultimately the compiled stats, the two legendary super bowls, and the New York market get him in. This is a vote by sports writers, after all.

This is not any sort of commentary over whether or not he deserves to be in - only whether or not he will get in. I'm not going anywhere near the debate over his merit as a player over his career. I've fucked that chicken enough over the years, and nobody's opinion is changing one way or the other.
 
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Headache in a Suitcase said:
Ultimately the compiled stats, the two legendary super bowls, and the New York market get him in. This is a vote by sports writers, after all.
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yea this, i don't think he deserves it, but i'll be surprised if he doesn't get voted in. the last reasons you mentioned is what will put him over the top with some voters.

if he had spent his entire career in tampa and it had gone the same way, i don't think he gets in.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
Freaking Troy Aikman is in the Hall of Fame, and somehow I'm expected to believe that he's a better QB than Brad Johnson because he won three Super Bowls and Johnson only had one? Troy Aikman was terrible. I get it, winning is important, but I'm sorry, Jay Cutler was a better QB than both of these two.

.
Click to expand...

Well yes, winning does matter. (look at Terry Bradshaw as an example with 212TDs to 210 Ints, but he was a lock for the HOF).

And Jay Cutler was better than the Ache Man? (did GAF hack your account?)

Just the eyeball test erases that notion (maybe you were too young to see Aikman in his prime years).
Jay Cutler was terrible, Aikman is miles better. Aikman's stats aren't as gaudy as some more recent QBs cause he played just before the league became crazy pass happy, but a much better QB than Cutler. And I hated those Dallas teams.
 
troy aikman's passing game certainly benefited a shit ton from having emmitt smith in his backfield for nearly his entire career. but yeah in their primes aikman was still much better than smokin' jay.
 
phanan said:
Ha, so much for that.
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It's an emotional topic for me, as there aren't many players for my favorite sports ball teams who a) played their entire career for said team, b) won.

The next best player of teams that I root for who played their entire career with one team is David Wright. There's no one in third.

My opinion on this particular subject is forever tainted by 4 games - the NFC title games against Green Bay and (especially) San Francisco, and the two Super Bowls against the Pats. It makes it incredibly difficult to be objective on the subject of Eli's status as a player in this league.

In any normal circumstance I'd be outraged if ownership chose a 39 year old QB over a top 10 pick in a season where you knew full well you weren't competing for anything.

But Eli.

I'll forever hold a soft spot on my sports heart for that man - warts and all.

I don't know if he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, and I don't care.

That's my quarterback, man.


Side note - the Giants have absolutely butchered the end of his career and done him no favors whatsoever.
 
eli manning is to headache in a suitcase what kyle lowry is to davec.

you're allowed to have all the feels man, i'm sure it'll happen to me too in the NBA thread and then laz will post a drake gif for some reason.
 
The Dolphins won't stop until they own the entire top 5 spots of the draft. :lol:

It's probably a good move for them. Steelers are highly likely to get a top 10 pick. I'm surprised they wouldn't want to try to use it on one of the other QB's after the Dolphins take Tua (should he be in it). Ben is aging and really hasn't looked great to begin with lately. I know what happens when you don't plan for the future QB after your star retires... Ahem, Miami.
 
Hewson said:
Well yes, winning does matter. (look at Terry Bradshaw as an example with 212TDs to 210 Ints, but he was a lock for the HOF).

And Jay Cutler was better than the Ache Man? (did GAF hack your account?)

Just the eyeball test erases that notion (maybe you were too young to see Aikman in his prime years).
Jay Cutler was terrible, Aikman is miles better. Aikman's stats aren't as gaudy as some more recent QBs cause he played just before the league became crazy pass happy, but a much better QB than Cutler. And I hated those Dallas teams.
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Oh save me the eyeball test! It’s such a revisionist history to laugh at Jay Cutler and praise Troy Aikman. Aikman was a winner. While he did play in a time where stats weren’t inflated nearly as much as they are now, Aikman only threw over 20 TDs once in his career - his 92 season. That season was legit the only season he was in the top 5, also ranging between 10-20 for the most of his career. He’s legit Joe Flacco with three Super Bowls on the “America’s Team”. Troy Aikman turned the ball over more times in his career than he threw touchdowns.

Aikman was better than Flacco who is better than Cutler because, yes, those are winners. You don’t just disregard the playoffs or something. But you also sure as hell don’t disregard the majority of their play because they played like a champion when it mattered. Their individual accolades account for those individual special feats.

You’re right, I know Troy Aikman best from paper and otherwise just highlights on YouTube. I don’t have some eye test. But stats do tell stories. Someone like Aikman relies on his championships, his team, team name, and let’s be honest here... his good ol boy white smile... to be remembered as so great.

Again though, three championships is impressive, but he didn’t win them by himself. Neither did Eli. It matters way more than it should. Nobody cares about abysmal performances in the playoffs, right? Everything should matter. For the very same reason why we aren’t calling Carson Palmer or Donovan McNabb hall of famers, everything matters. Both of whom were better quarterbacks than Eli. They just both don’t have championships.
 
Going strictly by stats works much better for the baseball HOF than it does for football.
Its why nose tackles don't get in (Curley Culp is the only guy who played a large chunk of his career at nose who is in, and that was more than 30 years after he retired and he played DL in the 4-3 for a few years as well so he accumulated some stats there). Guys like Fred Smerlas, Ted Washington and maybe Vince Wilfork who were dominant players haven't gotten in/likely won't get in because they don't put up numbers cause their job is to occupy 2 offensive linemen while somebody else makes the tackle.

And as we all know the offensive stats, particularly passing, in this era are way inflated over past eras, so just going by stats nowadays would put a lot of average QBs and receivers into the HOF.

Bottom line: Aikman > Cutler.
 
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So while we're on the discussion, who do we think of current QBs (and recently retired not yet eligible) are HOF worthy?

Obvious are Brady, Brees, Peyton Manning, Aaron Wroggers.

Too early to tell on Prince Harry, Mahomes , Goff and so forth.

So the debatable cases are the likes of Eli, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Wilson, Romo, Flacco, Matt Ryan, Newton and probably a few others.

Of those I'd say Roethlisberger is the most likely shoo-in, and Eli and Rivers are very probable to get in (whether worthy or not). Wilson gets in if he can have at least 5 more very good to great seasons. Romo gets some chatter but I don't think he played long enough and falls just short.
I'm a solid no on Flacco and Ryan (unless Ryan ends up winning a couple Super Bowls which I don't see happening). Newton would need to turn things around and regain his MVP form for multiple seasons, still time but I doubt it.
 
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Hewson said:
So the debatable cases are the likes of Eli, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Wilson, Romo, Flacco, Matt Ryan, Newton and probably a few others.
Click to expand...


Big Ben probably but I wouldn’t call him a shoo in. Rivers, I’m not so sure. Matt Ryan and Russell Wilson are both headed that way but they have a lot of time before they get there. Same with Cam. Joe Flacco? Hell no.
 
I hope Eli stays with the Giants and becomes the highest paid guy who holds the clipboard. I love Eli, but he's not Peyton. He's not winning an SB or getting there for another team. If anything, he should make the Giants pay to get rid of him because I believe he has a No Trade clause.

Right now, the Giants are a poorly run organization. :|
 
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