NBA Basketball 2007-08: The Thread Part II

[namkcuR]

i disagree.

while i certainly don't want to sell pippen short, and i'll take pippen over both odom and pao, it's certainly not because pippen was more talented than either of those two guys. pippen just had "it." he was a gamer, and a lock down defender to boot. he was the perfect second fiddle. if he had been drafted somewhere where he would have been forced to be the #1 guy, i certainly don't think we'd be talking about scottie pippen in the same light we do today, and he certainly would not have been on the top 50 team.

odom and pao are both incredibly talented, but tend to be soft (especially pao). after that... derek fisher is certainly as good if not better than ron harper or bj armstrong, and the lakers have a very capable bench.

michael jordan made no name, ordinary players into house hold names, many of whom would go on to become terrible terrible GMs thanks to their association with Jordan.

here is the most glaring difference between Michael Jordan and his relationship with his teammates and Kobe Bryant and his relationship with his.

Michael Jordan would be intense and yell at you and get in your face. Kobe Bryant is intense and yells and gets in your face. Michael Jordan would then pass you the ball on the next posession, showing that he still had trust in you. Kobe Bryant will say "fuck it" and shoot a fall away jumper.

Take Michael Jordan in his prime and switch him out with Kobe Bryant and the Lakers win this series. Switch Kobe Bryant with Michael Jordan in the 90s and the Knicks, Suns and Jazz would all have NBA Championship Banners hanging from the rafters. The Bulls may still have gotten a title or even two, but certainly not 6.

I think you're selling some of those players from the Bulls title years short.

Horace Grant was a legitimate 13-14ppg/9-10rpg/1bpg/1spg/2-3apg guy in his prime. He was very, very solid role player, and he WAS the 'third scoring option' on those first three title teams.

Bill Cartwright averaged 20+ppg in his first two years in New York, and 14-17ppg four more times after that. He was already over 30 and injury-plagued when he got to Chicago, but they also never used him as a scoring option, and he was still a great defensive presence for them. Grant once said, 'no Bill Cartwright, no three championships'.

Looking at the later teams...

Dennis Rodman is the greatest defensive PF ever, and the greatest rebounder ever. The Lakers have nothing close to him as far as interior defense goes.

Toni Kukoc was widely considered to be one of the very best players in Europe before he came over. He was an integral part of that second three-peat. He could score inside and out. In 98-99, after everyone had left and he was still on the Bulls, and he finally had a full-time starting role, he averaged 18/7. What has Gasol averaged since being traded to the Lakers? 18/7.

Ron Harper was a 20+ppg guy before coming to the Bulls. Just the year before signing with the Bulls, he put up 20ppg, 6rpg, 4apg, 1spg. He suffered a knee injury, and when he came to Chicago his PT was cut considerably, and he had to change his game to suit playing next to MJ when MJ came back, to being a more defense-oriented player. Derek Fisher has always been a role player. Ron Harper was a stud who had an injury, decrease in PT, and the situation of having to play a different role cut his numbers way down.

 

[Diemen]

When you look at it that way...with the Lakers taking the game tonight...does it seem all that unbelievable for Kobe to will his team to consecutive road victories? No. It's very possible. He's the best player in the world, and the best players have a way of surprising us. We will see.

One man can only do so much. Kobe can have a phenomenal 50 point game, but if his teammates aren't stepping up in crunch time, or when the inevitable Celtics defensive crunch and offensive run comes, then it'll all be for naught.

Speaking of stepping it up, or rather, covering the basics, if the Lakers are gonna win they're also gonna need to start making free throws. Even when they were stomping on the Celtics in the first half of game 4 they were horrible from the line. Game 3 they were terrible from the line. I don't know the stats offhand, but I'm sure those free throws could've added a not insignificant sum to their score.

 

[LMP]

I think you're selling some of those players from the Bulls title years short.

Horace Grant was a legitimate 13-14ppg/9-10rpg/1bpg/1spg/2-3apg guy in his prime. He was very, very solid role player, and he WAS the 'third scoring option' on those first three title teams.

Bill Cartwright averaged 20+ppg in his first two years in New York, and 14-17ppg four more times after that. He was already over 30 and injury-plagued when he got to Chicago, but they also never used him as a scoring option, and he was still a great defensive presence for them. Grant once said, 'no Bill Cartwright, no three championships'.

Looking at the later teams...

Dennis Rodman is the greatest defensive PF ever, and the greatest rebounder ever. The Lakers have nothing close to him as far as interior defense goes.

Toni Kukoc was widely considered to be one of the very best players in Europe before he came over. He was an integral part of that second three-peat. He could score inside and out. In 98-99, after everyone had left and he was still on the Bulls, and he finally had a full-time starting role, he averaged 18/7. What has Gasol averaged since being traded to the Lakers? 18/7.

Ron Harper was a 20+ppg guy before coming to the Bulls. Just the year before signing with the Bulls, he put up 20ppg, 6rpg, 4apg, 1spg. He suffered a knee injury, and when he came to Chicago his PT was cut considerably, and he had to change his game to suit playing next to MJ when MJ came back, to being a more defense-oriented player. Derek Fisher has always been a role player. Ron Harper was a stud who had an injury, decrease in PT, and the situation of having to play a different role cut his numbers way down.

You may be right, but I think you rely too much on a player's individual stats to support your claims instead of their game as a whole. Dwight Howard put up Grant's numbers during his rookie year, what does that say? Nothing. The players on those Bulls teams may have been good players, but the point is how the star guy (MJ or Kobe) elevates their game to that next level, or just how they play as a team. Comparing stats can only get you so far in that department without acknowledging their impact on other, arguably more important, aspects of the game.

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

Kobe's calculated aggression

+ Sasha Vujacic's animal magnetism

+ Pau Gasol's beard

= a Lakers win tonight!!!

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Dennis Rodman is the greatest defensive PF ever, and the greatest rebounder ever.

um, no.

i'm not going to debate how good the guys around jordan were with you... they filled their role perfectly, but they all were better with jordan than they ever would have been without... which is the point of the debate between jordan and kobe.

all of the bulls centers were foul collecters... journeymen or guys well past their prime like mr. bill... purdue, longley, wennington, etc. etc. etc., and none of them were even close to the level of the many hall of fame centers of the day.

scottie pippen and horace grant's career numbers are all better with jordan than without. scott williams, steve kerr, john paxson, b.j. armstrong... all have vastly greater statistics with jordan than without jordan. about the only guy i can think of who was better after leaving jordan was charles oakley.

lamar odom? all his best statistical season came without kobe. who are the role players, the average guys, who kobe has elevated to another level? who's the guy who's stock has risen to the point where they're household names and able to cash in on big contracts, the way many former bulls did?

i make the same argument with lebron, when people talk about how he doesn't have anyone to play with... the truly great all time players elevate the average player to the point where the average player isn't so average anymore. jordan did it, bird did it, magic did it. heck, i could even see the argument that garnett has done it... not on the level of jordan but you can see garnett's positive influence all over that boston team.

kobe doesn't do it, and neither does lebron.


oh... and if phil jackson ever asked michael jordan to guard rajon rondo instead of either paul pierce or ray allen, jordan would have looked at him like he was nuts.

 

[No spoken words]

Pierce gets to the hole at will, Bryant can't even sniff the rim.

One team plays solid defense, the other does not.

Memo to Gasol: Do not be afraid to crash the boards with authority.

 

[Lila64]

I'm skared!

Come on Lakers - DEFENSE!!!


ETA:

 

[No spoken words]

Grab a fucking rebound, Lakers. Jesus Christ, play hard.

 

[Lila64]

No shit! Glad they finally sat Radmonovich down. He looks like a deer in headlights sometimes. His defense is severely lacking

 

[Lila64]

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

Y
E
S

!

 

[No spoken words]

Y
E
S

!

Isn't that usually preceded by "You can put it on the boarrrrrrrrrrrrd...." in your world, Hawk Jr.?

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

That ball hit deep...way back...he looks up...and you can put the Lakers on the boardddddd.....Eeeeeeee Yes!!!

 

[Got Philk?]

No shit! Glad they finally sat Radmonovich down. He looks like a deer in headlights sometimes. His defense is severely lacking

or non-existant. Like Luke Walton's was tonight as well.

 

[Got Philk?]

um, no.


oh... and if phil jackson ever asked michael jordan to guard rajon rondo instead of either paul pierce or ray allen, jordan would have looked at him like he was nuts.

This is your best point made ever.

 

[No spoken words]

or non-existant. Like Luke Walton's was tonight as well.

A little unfair. Walton was asked to guard Pierce, which is simply beyond his ability as a defender.

 

[namkcuR]

i'm not going to debate how good the guys around jordan were with you... they filled their role perfectly, but they all were better with jordan than they ever would have been without... which is the point of the debate between jordan and kobe.

We don't disagree there. MJ made his teammates better, Kobe doesn't. I never said otherwise.

all of the bulls centers were foul collecters... journeymen or guys well past their prime like mr. bill... purdue, longley, wennington, etc. etc. etc., and none of them were even close to the level of the many hall of fame centers of the day.

I never said a word about Perdue, Longley, or Wennington. I only mentioned Cartwright, and even then I clearly said that by the time he got to the Bulls, he was old, whatever offensive game he had in New York was gone, and that he was mainly a defensive presence for the Bulls.

scottie pippen and horace grant's career numbers are all better with jordan than without. scott williams, steve kerr, john paxson, b.j. armstrong... all have vastly greater statistics with jordan than without jordan. about the only guy i can think of who was better after leaving jordan was charles oakley.

Horace Grant put up 15/11 in 93-94(the year Jordan was playing baseball) without Jordan - a better line than any he ever put up with Jordan.

In 93-94 when MJ was playing baseball, Scottie put up 22/8/5 and 2 steals per game - overall a better line than any he put up with MJ. And aside from MJ's first retirement, the first time Scottie played on a team without Jordan, he was 33. The only way you can compare Scottie with MJ to Scottie without MJ is use the numbers he was putting up in Portland when he was 34, 35, 36, an NBA senior citizen and compare them to the numbers he was putting up when he was 25-30. It's not a fair comparison. The dropoff in numbers had just as much if not more to do with the fact that he was an old man in NBA terms as it did with the fact that he wasn't playing with Jordan anymore.

lamar odom? all his best statistical season came without kobe. who are the role players, the average guys, who kobe has elevated to another level? who's the guy who's stock has risen to the point where they're household names and able to cash in on big contracts, the way many former bulls did?

No, he hasn't. I never disagreed with you on that. Scott Williams got a big fat contract from Philadelphia - no one Kobe has played with has gotten that.

i make the same argument with lebron, when people talk about how he doesn't have anyone to play with... the truly great all time players elevate the average player to the point where the average player isn't so average anymore. jordan did it, bird did it, magic did it. heck, i could even see the argument that garnett has done it... not on the level of jordan but you can see garnett's positive influence all over that boston team.

kobe doesn't do it, and neither does lebron.

In LeBron's case, I think you can attribute it as much to Cleveland's coaching staff as you can to LeBron. It didn't hurt Michael having Phil Jackson on the sideline running the triangle. But yes, neither of them make their teammates better the way Jordan did, although my criticism of LeBron in that regard is not nearly as harsh as that of Kobe.

As for Rodman...I stand by my comment that he is the greatest rebounder the league has ever seen. Don't show me Wilt's numbers or Russell's numbers. Everybody knows rebounding numbers from the 60s are inflated. The guy was 6'8' at best and pulled down 14-18rpg for years and years.

 

[lazarus]

A little unfair. Walton was asked to guard Pierce, which is simply beyond his ability as a defender.

That doesn't explain why Walton was fouling him at half-court.

I'm glad this is going back to Boston, not because I think the Lakers have a chance in hell, but because the Celtics deserve to win this thing in front of their home fans.

And now at least Kobe & Co. will escape with a little bit of dignity left.

Whatever, next year they are going to carve up the NBA like a meat cleaver.

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

Whatever, next year they are going to carve up the NBA like a meat cleaver.

Agreed. Next year (after the Lakers come back and steal this year's championship from Boston) they will be adding Andrew Bynum back into their rotation...a legitimate defensive force and an immensely talented young kid. Do I smell another 3-peat for Kobe?

 

[Got Philk?]

^The biggest part of that is that Pau can move to PF and Bynum plays Center.

 

[CTU2fan]

Was anyone else amused by Van Gundy's and Mark Jackson's assessment of the LA defense? I bet I heard MJ use the term "fake hustle" at least a half dozen times...and JVG all but called the Lakers a bunch of vajayjays for the way they stepped aside when a Celtic (generally Pierce) would attack the basket.

The C's need to find an answer to Gasol with Perk out. If not they might actually be in trouble.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

i've erased the 93-94 season from my memory so i forgot about that year... pippen and grant's stats did take a slight uptake, but grant's stats took a big drop off when he left chicago for orlando, and pippen's stats had a significant drop off after leaving chicago as well. yes, guys get older... but they normaly don't have significant drop offs in one season at age 33.

Don't show me Wilt's numbers or Russell's numbers. Everybody knows rebounding numbers from the 60s are inflated.

while i call bullshit on the idea that denis rodman was a better rebounder than bill russell, i will say this.

tell shaq "hey shaq, just rebound. don't shoot, don't look to score, don't do anything else. just rebound," and shaq would average 20+ a game.

is rodman one of the greatest rebounders of all time? yes. the single greatest rebounder of all time? sorry... there is no argument you can make that will put rodman in front of bill russell, who averaged 22.5 rebounds per game, to go along with his 11 NBA titles, 2 NCAA titles and Olympic Gold Medal. Sorry... you will not get me to ever sell any accomplishment of Bill Russell short.

rodman is 17th on the all time rebounding list. is he the 17th greatest rebounder of all time? no, that would be silly. but he's not the best. you're seriously underestimating the abilites of not just russell and chamberlain, but wes unseld, kareem, barkley, elvin hayes, paul silas, olajuwon and even a pre-injury bill walton.

 

[phanan]

The C's need to find an answer to Gasol with Perk out. If not they might actually be in trouble.

I thought PJ Brown did a pretty good job on him. Unfortunately he was in foul trouble there at the end.

Hopefully Perkins can at least play some limited minutes in Game 6.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Was anyone else amused by Van Gundy's and Mark Jackson's assessment of the LA defense? I bet I heard MJ use the term "fake hustle" at least a half dozen times...and JVG all but called the Lakers a bunch of vajayjays for the way they stepped aside when a Celtic (generally Pierce) would attack the basket.

LA was in a desperation situation and barely was able to hold on, at home... with a little help from a no-call on the steal by Kobe on Pierce, which was a "false hustle" play by kobe... get beat, reach around (hehe) the guy and try to poke the ball away. this time it worked (despite the no call on the foul), normally it doesn't.

i think the celtics win game 6 by double digits, perkins or not.


btw not that i believe this dick bavetta rigged game 6 of the kings-lakers series bullshit, but i did giggle when i saw that stern assigned bavetta to last night's game. a proverbial middle finger to the critics.

 

[CTU2fan]

Ya you gotta love Stern. I totally spaced on Bavetta being the guy Barkley raced...I remembered it happening but not that it was Bavetta.

I don't get the Lakers. Kobe came out last night on fire and then he stopped shooting...then Phil starts dicking around playing Mihm etc, and predictably the C's got right back in it.

BTW I'm still giggling over the image of Phil Jackson telling Jordan to guard Rondo.

 

[No spoken words]

That doesn't explain why Walton was fouling him at half-court.

QUOTE]

There's a difference between not playing defense and committing one stupid foul.

 

[Hewson]

get beat, reach around (hehe) the guy

.

Maybe Tuesday Kobe will join the Lakers' band and play the Rusty Trombone.


Pierce certainly put himself back in the driver's seat for MVP over Ray Allen last night should the Celts win.
The MVP prop at Pierce +550 looks good right now. (Kobe was the favorite at -200 followed by KG at +250, so I saw Pierce as the value play since I also played the Celts to win the series)


The Lakers are by no means dead, but winning 2 in Boston is gonna take a monumental effort, and the way they seem to go into funks it just doesn't seem likely they will sustain the necessary level of play for 48 minutes for 2 games in a row. Van Gundy's assessment of the defensive differences was right on, and Farmer Jordan Farmar then proceeded to illustrate it beautifully for him. And too many of them shy away from shots in the 4th...Kobe is a hun to be sure, but sometimes he has no choice cause others get the ball in open space and refuse to pull the trigger when the game is on the line.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

what's the spread on game 6?

 

[Hewson]

what's the spread on game 6?

I'm currently seeing a Celts-4 with an o/u of 192.

Money line is Celts -200, Lakers +170

Celts are 5-0 ATS in the series thus far.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I'm currently seeing a Celts-4 with an o/u of 192.

i may have to take the celtics and the under.