Another 2011 AFL thread - still pretending GWS is all just a bad dream

[Vlad n U 2]

I swear we are! Last week we played Cook and this week Moran!

Both who've been slipping over constantly and squibbing contests.

 

[The Sad Punk]

Probably not the best year to be tanking.

Gee Ax, bare bones stuff there! Very interesting, though. Glad that Aussie Rules has grown on you, I have no doubt asked it before but do you think a venture into the Kiwi market is worth it?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Yeah, definitely not. But it just seems so plausible!

I will be hoping to see Craig resign this week. He's killing this club.

 

[intedomine]

Soccer is popular everywhere but America. Why, you ask? Because Americans like when things happen.

But Americans do seem to like soccer. It's just not anywhere near as popular as the other sports. MLS average close to 20,000 attendances at matches, while many Americans maintain high interest in the elite European leagues.

Aussie Rules hasn't spread because I think it immediately seems a ridiculous sport to most outsiders. And it is ridiculous. But it's the complexity of the sport, the uniqueness of the playing abilities and it's unusualness that, once learned, provokes an undying resonance amongst fans. It's just that (unlike soccer) it is so hard to learn the sport without perseverance, unless you grow up in a footy culture (Victoria, SA Tassie, WA).

 

[The Sad Punk]

He was quoting Achewood, for what it's worth. I never got the impression that most Americans gave a damn about soccer through media and forums, even though I'm sure that there's a select few that are into it (a select few that's probably a fairly high number because of the country's vast population, but still "few" nonetheless).

 

[intedomine]

Smaller percentage of Americans than in most other nations definitely, but that population is massive. They hosted one of the best World Cup's in '94, easily the best attended as well.

I actually attended an MLS pre-season game a few years back and got the vibe that it is the Mexican-American population who are most embracing of American soccer. The domestic soccer scene is their baby, and they are the ones pushing for it's growth.

 

[Axver]

Why the hell was the Roos vs Crows non-game broadcast today (seriously, dreadful footy by both sides) instead of what sounds like a very entertaining game between the Hawks and Freo? Ugh.

Soccer is popular everywhere but America. Why, you ask? Because Americans like when things happen.

Achewood quote or otherwise, I'd beg to differ, because the reason I'm so hostile to most American sports is that I perceive them as sports where nothing happens. But especially NASCAR.

I simply think the reason that AFL isn't more popular overseas is because of the rules, to many who hadn't been living with the game since their childhood it may just seem much too complicated with all the various interpretations of various things. It's definitely not really that straightforward as soccer..

I can see your point, though honestly, part of what attracted me initially and a lot of other people I know is just how utterly crazy it is. Sure, you've no idea WHY certain things are happening, but it's just fast and exciting and total madness.

Gee Ax, bare bones stuff there! Very interesting, though. Glad that Aussie Rules has grown on you, I have no doubt asked it before but do you think a venture into the Kiwi market is worth it?

I'm not even sure what compelled me to post it! But it's something that's been slowly dawning on me for the last season and a half, so I guess I had to put words down somewhere and this seemed a likely place. I never thought when I saw my first game of footy in 1997, or even when I really started paying attention for a whole season around 1999, that a sport other than rugby could become my favourite (except maybe cricket).

I'm honestly not sure if a venture into the Kiwi market is a good idea or not. I want to say "OF COURSE IT FUCKING IS!", but that's just because it'd be a dream come true to have a Wellington team to barrack for. It's a small market, and one that I think has had trouble supporting so many rugby teams, an NRL team, and an A League team. I think it could be done though, especially if the team is based in Wellington or Christchurch (avoiding an unproductive battle with the NRL for turf in Auckland, plus Wellington in particular has the ideal stadium for AFL). It would be a medium-to-long term prospect; AFL may have been somewhat popular in NZ pre-WWI, and it may be more widely known now than twenty or thirty years ago, but what we need are more demonstration/pre-season matches and especially TELEVISION COVERAGE. People won't get interested in a sport they can't watch, and it reduces the power of token matches ... or even a whole team. Just look at the Melbourne Rebels - I've heard maybe two people talk about them this season. I've no idea who the fuck is going to those games, because nobody in Melbourne can actually follow rugby on telly without Foxtel, and that immediately excludes 70% of the population.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Why the hell was the Roos vs Crows non-game broadcast today (seriously, dreadful footy by both sides) instead of what sounds like a very entertaining game between the Hawks and Freo? Ugh.

I can see your point, though honestly, part of what attracted me initially and a lot of other people I know is just how utterly crazy it is. Sure, you've no idea WHY certain things are happening, but it's just fast and exciting and total madness.

The network coverage of games is decided before the season, also CH7 only have the 1:40 timeslot on Sundays.

It really is mad, it still surprises me to this day. The fact that it's so fast and free flowing is what makes it better than pretty much everything in the world. The crowds are usually darn good, too.

On an unrelated note, I'm excited that 7TWO are showing Wimbledon live. Will be a treat.

 

[bono_212]

For the record, I looked into it when I first started following the sport, and we've got AFL teams all over the place. Obviously not huge leagues or anything, but it is a thriving underground community, far as I can tell.

As for soccer, I adore playing the game, can't stand watching it. That being said, I have an awful lot of friends who are fans of the game. No, its not our biggest sport here, but its by no means a dead-end.

 

[Axver]

For the record, I looked into it when I first started following the sport, and we've got AFL teams all over the place. Obviously not huge leagues or anything, but it is a thriving underground community, far as I can tell.

As for soccer, I adore playing the game, can't stand watching it. That being said, I have an awful lot of friends who are fans of the game. No, its not our biggest sport here, but its by no means a dead-end.

Yeah, I've heard a bit that there are a lot of thriving teams around the US. Though my experience of noting well-developed underground rugby and cricket communities is that it's not that much a guarantee of progress on a bigger level. I think a sport really needs to break out of the underground for a national team (or franchise in a mainstream tournament, or whatever) to really become successful.

And I'm mostly with you on soccer, it's fun enough to play and I'll never say no to kicking a ball around, but oh god watching soccer either live or on telly? No thanks.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

There's also that AFL "World Cup" that comes around every two years. That's always interesting.

 

[bono_212]

I assume Australia always wins?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Australia don't participate.

 

[bono_212]

Oh good good.

 

[Axver]

New Zealand has, I think, always either won it or been runner-up. If not always, then often anyway!

 

[coolian2]

But Americans do seem to like soccer. It's just not anywhere near as popular as the other sports. MLS average close to 20,000 attendances at matches, while many Americans maintain high interest in the elite European leagues.

that 20,000 average would have to be close to the high end for soccer leagues worldwide, i'd hazard a guess.

 

[cobl04]

Interesting last few pages. I too think that Australian Rules Football is the best game in the world. Cricket is the only other sport that comes close to matching it for me, but I never lose interest in the footy.

I can watch both codes of rugby. I think Union is probably the better game. Don't ask me why, I don't watch much of either, but I remember watching the 03 World Cup and getting right into it. But perhaps I say that because Union is truly a world game in the sense that there is a lot of passion for the Wallabies (or there was, until about three or so years ago) and virtually none for the Kangaroos. I love watching State of Origin and I can definitely appreciate a good game of league.

Soccer (I don't care what anyone says, I will never call it football) is indeed fun to play, but I hate watching it for the most part. My main problem is that yes, not much happens. Inte says that a game that ends 0-0 can be fucking brilliant, but I just don't agree. That bores me to tears and it's one of the few sports that I just could not sit and watch for the entire time. World Cup is a slight exemption, as everyone gets into it and there are some damn good skills on display. And I was actually in the States when the world cup was on last year, and let me tell you from my experience, it was pretty huge. Admittedly once USA was knocked out the interest dropped off a bit but it's certainly not an underground sport over there, at least not on that level.

I think the reason our footy hasn't exploded anywhere else is that it's so exclusive; there is no incentive for an American to watch a full AFL game, really, other than the novelty factor. I would support a NZ team but that is at least decades away. As Ax rightly pointed out a lot needs to happen before that's even considered.

I'm frustrated free-to-air aren't showing the NBA finals. I've kept up-to-date with the playoffs but haven't seen five minutes of footage. That is a good game, though I think I'd struggle to watch an entire game if I wasn't doing something else. The scoring is so prolific it can get a little boring.

Gridiron I don't like. Apparently if you understand the rules, it's a good game to watch (I know Bonnie is a fan) but every time I've caught it on ONE it seems like there is 30-60 seconds of play, then the ball will go over the boundary line, the swathes of people on the sidelines erupt in either disgust or delight, and then there is a two-minute break in which the last 15 seconds is discussed. I watched the entirety of the superbowl, and enjoyed it, but the game should not take that long.

I feel bad knocking baseball given that I am such a huge fan of cricket, so I feel a bit hypocritical, but it is a boring sport. I saw the Giants take on the Red Sox in San Fran, and aside from the bitter cold weather, it was ordinary to watch. The game lasted three and a half hours, and I was more than ready to go home after two. Even the atmosphere was not as good as I had been told. There was a game last week between the Cincinnati Reds and someone else, which went for 19 innings. From I think the eight inning to the 18th, there was not a single run scored. I'm not sure if that's considered a good game or not, but how anyone could subject themselves to that, with all the downtime of timeouts, breaks, foul balls, etc, is just beyond me.



Majak Daw says racial abuse from fan was 'quite a shock' | Herald Sun

This was a shame to read. Port Melbourne have a lot of feral supporters, but this is not on. Glad to read it was dealt with appropriately. I'll try and find out what was said when I go into the Werribee offices Wednesday morning.

Not surprisingly, most of the comments here are attacking Eddie for telling a Saints supporter to shut up after he abused Krakouer. "Look after your own backyard Eddie Pies supporters are ferals"

 

[intedomine]

I think that regardless of the sport (or code), most people are born into following not the sport itself, but a club/team. This could be something inherited through family or simply made logical through geography. Awareness and media coverage is a factor as well.

First and foremost, people are Pittsburgh fans, Juventus fans, Richmond fans or Tampa Bay fans. They don't just go to the game because they are a fan of the sport.

Often when I go to the footy, I sense that most members have a very passing interest in matters relating to anything other than there club. It's the ritual of going to watch the Hawks play ( not merely going to watch a football match) that gets people through the gate.

 

[intedomine]

Bland round of AFL by the way (and not just because The Tiger had the BYE), few matches of interest or memorability, it has to be said. Hawthorn-Fremantle the match of the round, followed by Dees-Essendon, the rest were just routine season fixtures.

 

[cobl04]

Great call. I think I tend to forget that because I've got such an avid interest in the sport despite my love for the Cats.

I think it's sad though that there's no suburban-ness in AFL today, as inevitable as it was. And the VFL is a pretty sad league, in terms of fan support. You get more people to country football games than you do to the VFL. There'd be about 30 or so people in Werribee that passionately support the club I reckon, maybe less.

 

[bono_212]

Bland round of AFL by the way (and not just because The Tiger had the BYE), few matches of interest or memorability, it has to be said. Hawthorn-Fremantle the match of the round, followed by Dees-Essendon, the rest were just routine season fixtures.

Every match-up this week was predictable on paper, and almost all of them went that way.

 

[intedomine]

Great call. I think I tend to forget that because I've got such an avid interest in the sport despite my love for the Cats.

I think it's sad though that there's no suburban-ness in AFL today, as inevitable as it was. And the VFL is a pretty sad league, in terms of fan support. You get more people to country football games than you do to the VFL. There'd be about 30 or so people in Werribee that passionately support the club I reckon, maybe less.

VFA was always gonna struggle once the VFL became national. Prahran, Oakleigh, Dandenong and Camberwell, proud clubs with esteemed histories, were all victims. Merging with the AFL reserves might have assisted in keeping some of these clubs (Preston, Coburg especially) playing in an elite state league. Adversely however, the competition is cheapened by the fact that players aren't playing for the club or their teammates, but for senior selection instead. It's a hard competition to take seriously, particularly with the AFL clubs flip flopping their partner clubs all the time.

With some foresight and smarter management in the 80's, the VFA could have fashioned itself into a sustainable and still popular niche league of sorts.

 

[cobl04]

I would kill for a state league here that is elite and well-supported. I think it's criminal that the VFA has effectively been wiped from everyone's memories. Everyone raves about Plugger, and Dunstall and Ablett and Coventry etc but no one ever mentions Fred Cook, who kicked like 1400 goals for I think Sandringham in the VFA, just a step below the VFL in those days. Many VFA stars never played VFL/AFL football because they were, as you say, playing for their club and teammates.

Seems like a helluva long time ago that playing for the Big V meant something - representative football used to be the pinnacle, and it died off because players eventually preferred to play for their clubs.

 

[LemonMelon]

I'm such a shitty fan. We lost our internet connection for about 7 hours yesterday, so I never could have watched the Carlton game anyway, but I did forget it was on.

Anyway, looked like a great game until we completely dominated when it counted and/or Port remembered their lot in life. Sydney's great game (or Brisbane's awful one) doesn't convince me they can hang with the top 4, which widened the gap further this week.

 

[Axver]

Admittedly once USA was knocked out the interest dropped off a bit but it's certainly not an underground sport over there, at least not on that level.

I think this is true of any country really - look at how the Cricket World Cup just fell off the radar this year the moment Australia was knocked out. That said, cricket seems to be struggling in general to maintain interest right now. I honestly think it's partly because the Australian public is not used to their cricket team losing, and that so many people like a winner. But this is a discussion for the cricket thread.

I think the reason our footy hasn't exploded anywhere else is that it's so exclusive; there is no incentive for an American to watch a full AFL game, really, other than the novelty factor.

But what incentive is there for us to watch the English Premier League, for instance? You need a level of basic interest first before you can establish a local league for people to get into. Plus some overseas teams (generally soccer teams) have done an amazingly good job of branding themselves in such a way that people in far-flung countries care deeply about them. I don't know how that's done, but if Manchester United can somehow generate a significant following all the way in Australia, why can't the AFL's most successful clubs make inroads into New Zealand at the very least?

I'm frustrated free-to-air aren't showing the NBA finals. I've kept up-to-date with the playoffs but haven't seen five minutes of footage. That is a good game, though I think I'd struggle to watch an entire game if I wasn't doing something else. The scoring is so prolific it can get a little boring.

For me, the problem with basketball isn't so much the prolific scoring itself (AFL can get pretty nuts sometimes too), but the fact that it just seems so repetitive to me. On such a small court, there is so little diversity in what's happening relative to AFL. I enjoy netball more - it just seems like a more complex, skilled game; basketball with some diversity.

Apparently if you understand the rules, it's a good game to watch

Not for me. I know the rules and I still think it's a dreadful game. Well, KNEW the rules 6-7 years ago when I was giving it chance after chance. I've probably forgotten them by now!

I think that regardless of the sport (or code), most people are born into following not the sport itself, but a club/team. This could be something inherited through family or simply made logical through geography. Awareness and media coverage is a factor as well.

Yeah, this is a good point. I'm pretty weird in my journey with AFL, in that I followed the sport for about a decade before I even really had a team to call "mine". I knew who I hated, and I knew who I enjoyed to watch, but I didn't have a #1 team - and it was only when I came to Melbourne when I thought that it was about time I chose a team. In Queensland I was just a guy who enjoyed watching whatever footy was on the telly.

And I was certainly born into following any given Wellington team and the All Blacks (and consequently hating any Auckland and Australian team). That said, with my favourite sports, it goes beyond that and I love the sport itself, like I can watch any rugby you throw at me, but if I have just a passing interest, I'll probably just gravitate towards Wellington/NZ teams. Like I don't care much for netball in general, but you better believe I was cheering on the Silver Ferns in last year's Commonwealth Games.

 

[cobl04]

But what incentive is there for us to watch the English Premier League, for instance? You need a level of basic interest first before you can establish a local league for people to get into. Plus some overseas teams (generally soccer teams) have done an amazingly good job of branding themselves in such a way that people in far-flung countries care deeply about them. I don't know how that's done, but if Manchester United can somehow generate a significant following all the way in Australia, why can't the AFL's most successful clubs make inroads into New Zealand at the very least?

Well I think you answered the question yourself, branding. The EPL and its clubs have done such a good job of branding themselves that there is an incentive to watch it here. The AFL doesn't seem interested in overseas.

Good point about basketball too. It is very repetitive.

 

[Axver]

I suppose the thing that helps the EPL, and why it's so well-followed in Australia compared to any other European soccer league, is our British heritage. You've still got people who support teams based on their family heritage. And soccer also has the (inexplicable) advantage of being the "world game", which helps in any new market but especially in Australia due to our large migrant population from soccer countries. Teams from other overseas sports that are well-branded don't have anything beyond an underground following (see certain gridiron, baseball, and basketball teams), and I expect that's due to the lack of a colonial link and the relatively small migrant population from countries that predominantly play those sports.

 

[The Sad Punk]

More goodness from Emmanuel Irra:

YouTube - ‪Emmanuel Irra Round 3 2011‬‏

Should be number one for Port's draft priorities (and I don't doubt that he already is), not only will he get more people in through the door and potentially create interest in the African community here, but he has undeniable footy smarts.

Damn shame what happened with Daw, too, but unfortunately not totally unexpected. Great to see so much support given to him though, and hopefully the few bastards in the crowd won't put him off.

It's an incomparable story to Eddie getting pissed off at a Saints flog for saying some none-too-kind things towards Andy Krakeour, as from all accounts they were nothing to do with his race, and more to do with the fact that he's a convicted criminal who nearly killed a man. For Eddie to bring the race card in is absurd and offensive, and says more about himself than the St Kilda perp.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Kid's a gun.

 

[The Sad Punk]

I'd love to see him play for us, but I'm expecting him to stay here or head over to GWS.