2011 MLB - Part III - World Series, etc.

[the tourist]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

I'd still have JJ over that. Come on now...

Power hitting switch hitting first baseman a couple years away from his prime, young power right-handed pitcher who could easily shift into the rotation this year. We'll see which who produces more WAR over the life of their current contracts, JJ or Smoak and Feliz.

[LuckyNumber7]

You can use hindsight all you'd like but in that case trading JJ for anything would be a 'good deal' if he never plays enough.

With that being said, that trade is a bunch of crap. JJ is much better than that. Would you trade Felix Hernandez for that? I think not. In fact, you proclaimed him untradable. I know I wouldn't trade Mike Stanton for that [relative] garbage.

[the tourist]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

You can use hindsight all you'd like but in that case trading JJ for anything would be a 'good deal' if he never plays enough.

With that being said, that trade is a bunch of crap. JJ is much better than that. Would you trade Felix Hernandez for that? I think not. In fact, you proclaimed him untradable. I know I wouldn't trade Mike Stanton for that [relative] garbage.

I thought it was a good deal for the Marlins at the time, too. Mainly because Johnson can't keep healthy. Josh Johnson is more akin to Erik Bedard. A glass man who is very, very good when healthy. But not durable in the slightest.

And no, Felix is not untradable. Just the needs of the system would all have to align and be addressed (a C, 3B, and corner OF who can all hit, and a low-minors-high-upside pitcher).

[Hewson]

Originally Posted by the tourist

We'll see which who produces more WAR over the life of their current contracts

I give a slight edge to Cindy Lou Who over Roger Daltrey.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Then again, in regards to WAR? Good God, what is it good for?

[Hewson]

Absoultely Nothing...say it again!

[DRay9911]

barry larkin. meh

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Barry Larkin was damn good. His stats don't look as great in terms of what shortstops have been doing lately, but he was a tremendous player in his time.

[the tourist]

If Edgar (the greatest DH of all time) doesn't get in, Mariano Rivera (the greatest closer of all time) shouldn't either.

[Hewson]

Imagine if the Mariners still had Edgar over the last 3 seasons, that one big bat....3 WS titles most likely.

[MrPryck2U]

Originally Posted by the tourist

If Edgar (the greatest DH of all time) doesn't get in, Mariano Rivera (the greatest closer of all time) shouldn't either.

How many World Series titles has Edgar been highly instrumental in?

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally Posted by the tourist

If Edgar (the greatest DH of all time) doesn't get in, Mariano Rivera (the greatest closer of all time) shouldn't either.

now i've disagreed with a lot of things you've said here... but that one is one of the biggest, heaping piles of of crap i have ever heard... anywhere... from anyone.

and it's a shame, because you could have made a valid argument that edgar martinez is a hall of famer without ever mentioning mariano rivera. and i'd probably agree with you.

but saying that if edgar isn't, mariano isn't? yea. wow. no.

[the tourist]

Guys who only play a part of the game, etc.

The reason Edgar is not in already is because he was a DH. DH's play more of the game than closers do.

[the tourist]

Originally Posted by MrPryck2U

How many World Series titles has Edgar been highly instrumental in?

So should no one who hasn't been to a world series be in consideration for being in the hall of fame?

[the tourist]

Originally Posted by Hewson

Imagine if the Mariners still had Edgar over the last 3 seasons, that one big bat....3 WS titles most likely.

I'll forgive this because I know you're old and old people generally are tired. And so it makes sense that you'd use such a tired, old baseball thread meme.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

generally i don't think closers should be hall of famers, either. i make an exception with mariano... a dominating presence, both in the regular season, and most importantly, in the post season. he was one of the most feared pitchers of his or any era's, and his dominance transcends his position.

edgar martinez was an excellent hitter, and i do believe he should be considered for the hall of fame, and very well may be the greatest DH of all time. if he was an every day position player, he'd be a lock. gun to my head, he should get in.

he and mariano should never be mentioned in the same breath as far as their standing in the all time pantheon of the game.

[MrPryck2U]

Originally Posted by the tourist

So should no one who hasn't been to a world series be in consideration for being in the hall of fame?

Ok, to answer my own question. That would be FIVE!! FIVE baby! Too bad Edgar never was in one. I've got no problem with him being in the HOF, but your comparison is way off. Mo has been HIGHLY instrumental in those 5 World Series titles. One could easily argue that if Mo isn't on the team, they don't win all of those World Series.

And yes, it does help guys get over the hump as far as being inducted into the HOF. I'm sure it helped Barry Larkin. I'm sure I can name a few more, but I don't feel so inclined.

[the tourist]

Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase

generally i don't think closers should be hall of famers, either. i make an exception with mariano... a dominating presence, both in the regular season, and most importantly, in the post season. he was one of the most feared pitchers of his or any era's, and his dominance transcends his position.

edgar martinez was an excellent hitter, and i do believe he should be considered for the hall of fame, and very well may be the greatest DH of all time. if he was an every day position player, he'd be a lock. gun to my head, he should get in.

he and mariano should never be mentioned in the same breath as far as their standing in the all time pantheon of the game.

Sure they should. They're each the greatest at a position that plays "half the game". They're both at a unique position that wasn't around thirty-five years ago. Mo is the best reliever of all time. Edgar is not only the best DH of all time, but one of the best hitters of all time. He doesn't have the counting stats because he was blocked for years and didn't become a starter until he was into his prime, agewise. Second best hitter using wRC from 1995-2001. Better in those years combined than anyone but Bonds. During Griffey's prime. During Bagwell's prime. During Manny's prime. During Thomas' prime. During A-Rod's breakout. Many etc.'s following.

[PhilsFan]

Just because they don't play the whole game does not mean DH and closer mean the same thing. It's an argument that only makes sense on the surface. Once you think about it for a little bit, it's pretty silly.

[Hewson]

Originally Posted by the tourist

I'll forgive this because I know you're old and old people generally are tired. And so it makes sense that you'd use such a tired, old baseball thread meme.

Have you seen my Centrum Silver? I thought for sure I left it next to my bifocals.

Now as to your argument, as others have mentioned, comparing Martinez and Rivera is absurd, not even apples to oranges, more like apples to watermelons.

Martinez while maybe the best DH of all time (Check Ortiz' stats and post season accomplishments and you'll see Martinez will soon be remembered as the 2nd best ever), he's far from the greatest hitter ever...he was damn good, but .312, 309 HR, 1261 RBI are not all time great numbers...is he a hall of famer...probably, but by no means a first ballot type, he'll get in eventually....did he "dominate his era" as many of the writers like to say, in a word, "no". He had a very good career, the fact that he played DH makes no difference, his numbers are compared with other HOF hitters and they are good, but not mind blowing, they don't scream hall of fame like say Griffey, but upon close examination I think they'll be good enough to get him elected in a few years time.

As for Rivera, its not just that he's the best closer, he is the career leader all time in saves, is Edgar the all time leader in any meaningful stat? Where is he closest? Is it 45th on the doubles list? Trevor Hoffman is the only one near Rivera and he is still going...and yes the 5 WS rings do matter. Martinez never had 200 hits in a season, had 2,247 career hits, not close to the magical 3,000....he's not as great an all time hitter as you remember him. Again, I think he'll get in eventually, but he isn't a slam dunk candidate, all you need is the eyeball test for that...Rivera is a slam dunk candidate, sure first ballot HoF'er.