the tourist
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The entire sabermetric community since they're the ones who created WAR. Did you know your boy Alderson is a huge proponent of sabermetrics?
2011 MLB - Part III - World Series, etc.
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The entire sabermetric community since they're the ones who created WAR. Did you know your boy Alderson is a huge proponent of sabermetrics?
PhilsFan
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i do not think you even believe that.
the tourist
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Believe what? That the people who created WAR believe in its ability to evaluate talent? That may be partially correct due to the difficulty in defensive metric accuracy. Thankfully, that isn't much of a factor with regard to a DH and a pitcher.
PhilsFan
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You literally just said every person who believes in sabermetrics (and let's be clear that "the entire sabermetric community" means that, just so you don't throw out bullshit about straw men) believes that Edgar Martinez was more valuable to his team than Mariano Rivera, solely based on the fact that he had a higher WAR.
There's no possible way that is true.
There's no possible way that is true.
the tourist
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Fine, the sabermetricians who believe in WAR as a tool to evaluate talent. And by WAR, I mean the statistics that go into determining WAR such as wRC+, and xFIP.
Over the course of his career, Edgar Martinez created more runs than Mariano Rivera prevented.
the tourist
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Anyway, this is all ridiculously off topic from my original premise.
If no DHs should be allowed into the hall of fame for only playing "half the game", then no closers should be allowed into the hall of fame since they, as well, only play "half the game".
Mariano Rivera is the best closer in history and that likely won't change for decades.
Edgar Martinez is the best DH in history and that likely won't change for decades.
If no DHs should be allowed into the hall of fame for only playing "half the game", then no closers should be allowed into the hall of fame since they, as well, only play "half the game".
Mariano Rivera is the best closer in history and that likely won't change for decades.
Edgar Martinez is the best DH in history and that likely won't change for decades.
no, don't get off the hook with that bullshit statement.
show me a quote, a link, an article... of a well respected baseball mind who believes Mariano Rivera is more valuable than Edgar Martinez.
and yes, i very well know that Alderson is a big sabermetrics guy. his assistant, depodesta, is the person who fatso mcgee from superbad's character in moneyball is based off of.
i also know that sandy alderson would never make a statement saying that edgar martinez is more valuable than mariano rivera, because he knows that it's not true, and only a crazy person would believe such a thing. so i eliminated him for you... so please, again... give me a quote from a well respected baseball person, sabermetric guru or otherwise, who believes edgar martinez was more valuable than mariano rivera.
please. i'm begging you.
As big as I am on stats, I really think that the position taken by the tourist here does a disservice to the "sabermetric community". Nobody who is seriously into stats (or who took econometrics 101) would put all faith in one single indicator as WAR. Why look at one data point when you have so much more to look at?
This argument is also somewhat weak even from a statistical standpoint, as there are so many people that have showed how fWAR underrates relief pitchers (thus the use of WPA for many of them). Not only that, but FIP - the stat on which WAR is based for pitchers - severely underrates Rivera due to his well known ability to produce weak contact. That's why bWAR ranks Rivera much higher (56.3, remarkable for a reliever). Not to mention that WAR is based exclusively on regular season performance, when Rivera's case has so much to do to his postseason greatness.
This argument is also somewhat weak even from a statistical standpoint, as there are so many people that have showed how fWAR underrates relief pitchers (thus the use of WPA for many of them). Not only that, but FIP - the stat on which WAR is based for pitchers - severely underrates Rivera due to his well known ability to produce weak contact. That's why bWAR ranks Rivera much higher (56.3, remarkable for a reliever). Not to mention that WAR is based exclusively on regular season performance, when Rivera's case has so much to do to his postseason greatness.
Imperor said:
Well played, sir.
PhilsFan
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Does anyone here think that Bobby Abreu has more value than Mariano Rivera? Because he has a higher career WAR than Mo Rivera as well.
As a fan of the team Abreu spent his prime on, I can tell you that Abreu is a hugely underwhelming player who only looks good on paper.
As a fan of the team Abreu spent his prime on, I can tell you that Abreu is a hugely underwhelming player who only looks good on paper.
OP
OP
GirlsAloudFan
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Baseball.
PhilsFan
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Hold on, isn't Montero the guy they didn't trade Cliff Lee for?
phanan
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At least we've moved on to meaningful baseball discussion now.
the tourist
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When the stats that they make show the value difference, why do I need to find some random, obscure quote? I'll let the numbers speak for themselves, thanks.
I'll say this: per plate appearance/plate appearance faced, Mariano Rivera is more valuable, because his WAR per plate appearance/plate appearance faced is better by a bit. His WAR, and thus his value, is limited due to how few innings/plate appearances he affects. With the same rate stats, Mo as a starter would be one of the best all time and would easily have over 100 WAR. Anyway, this is all a wonderful argument for why counting stat milestones as a way into the HOF are retarded. I've seen many a blog commenter state that players should have to hit a certain WAR threshold to get into the Hall. I've seen many other blog commenters say a person should have to get 3000 hits (or 300 wins) to get into the Hall. Both of these ideas are stupid. Being one of the best players in your particular era of your position should get you into the Hall. But Edgar is not in it because he plays only "half the game", despite being the best ever at his position. The only comparable "new" position we have to DH is closer. This is why the initial comparison was made, and it wasn't a comparison of player value. It was a comparison of best-at-position-that-only-plays-half-the-game value.
Anyway, BBWAA like counting stats, so Mo gets in easy and Edgar may possibly get in if he's lucky.
the tourist
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As for the Montero for Pineda deal, I would have liked it more if it was straight up and Campos and Noesi weren't involved. Campos is a beast and if he stays healthy, he's going to surpass Pineda when he's ready in a few years (of course, with regard to pitching, that's a pretty big if).
the tourist
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Interesting you should mention WPA - Edgar's and Mo's are nearly identical.
DRay9911
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that lasted 16 minutes
I think the Montero-Pineda trade is fair, but I don't think Pineda is the right fit for Yankee Stadium and the AL East, due to his flyball tendencies (that right field porch is a bitch). That said, he's the type of guy you trade Montero for - young, cost-controlled.
Tourist, I think you will see that Noesi is as MLB ready as they get. Frankly, I've always rated him higher than Nova. Better strikeout stuff and better control.
I like that the Yankees' rotation is now CC-Pineda-Kuroda-Nova-Garcia. Get rid of AJ, please.
Tourist, I think you will see that Noesi is as MLB ready as they get. Frankly, I've always rated him higher than Nova. Better strikeout stuff and better control.
I like that the Yankees' rotation is now CC-Pineda-Kuroda-Nova-Garcia. Get rid of AJ, please.
the tourist
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Good point. I'm really hoping Noesi can replace the rotation slot, if not the production, of Pineda. For your sake, I hope Pineda's former arm injuries don't return, though. That arm injury from a few years ago is why Dave Cameron's been wanting to trade Pineda for a couple years now to maximize the return. Anyway, for the young pitcher with ace potential, the Yankees got the best deal of the three in my opinion. Anyway, I hope Safeco doesn't neuter Montero - it shouldn't though since I hear he has tons of opposite field power.
Hewson
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Now you're getting it.
the tourist
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Nice cherry-picking.
Yeah, the higher injury risk and Pineda's fly ball tendencies are what I don't like about the deal. Jose Campos is also really intriguing, though.
Montero's opposite field power is really quite a sight to see.
the tourist
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I don't really think either side "won" this trade. It's one of the most fair deals I've seen in awhile, and it made sense for both sides. Teams trading surplus commodities for areas of need. Campos was in the Mariners' top 6 pre-2012 ranking by Sickels. He was number 4 of our starters in the minors behind Hultzen, Walker, and Paxton, and probably about even with our 3B/LF monster (Catricala) and hopeful future SS (Franklin).
With Pineda, I'd be more worried about the fact that he doesn't have a viable secondary pitch against LHH. In Yankee Stadium, with those flyball tendancies, that could really be a problem. His changeup is mediocre at best.
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