2011 MLB - Part III - World Series, etc.

[the tourist]

Also, saying that Mariano was simply a "better closer" than his contemporaries is underselling it, considering his continued dominance for 15+ years and how relievers tend to flame out after a few years. He has the best career ERA for any pitcher with more than 1000 IPs since 1920. To put things in perspective, Edgar Martinez ranks 27th in wRC+ in the same spam. They are not in the same league.

Please tell me how much more dominating Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez would have been if they only had to pitch one inning a game 70 times a year. It's not a fair comp. Being a starter is ridiculously harder. Just look at Dennis Eckersley for an example. Good starter. Great closer. Pitchers coming out of the 'pen don't have to "save" (har har) anything for later, therefore they generally can throw harder out of the 'pen than they would if starting.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

So yeah... that Bud Selig.

Makes as much as Albert Pujols.

 

[the tourist]

Anyway,

How Great Was Edgar Martinez’s Bat? | FanGraphs Baseball

check out that graph about halfway down the article that says how many times players with a minimum of 500 PAs put up wRC of 150+.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Quite the Panther response, eh?

 

[gump]

Please tell me how much more dominating Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez would have been if they only had to pitch one inning a game 70 times a year. It's not a fair comp. Being a starter is ridiculously harder. Just look at Dennis Eckersley for an example. Good starter. Great closer. Pitchers coming out of the 'pen don't have to "save" (har har) anything for later, therefore they generally can throw harder out of the 'pen than they would if starting.

That wasn't the original argument, though, was it? I don't think anyone would disagree that the threshold for a reliever is much higher given their more limited value vis-à-vis a starter. The point everyone is making is that Rivera easily trumps - more so than any other reliever - that threshold of excellence.

 

[the tourist]

That wasn't the original argument, though, was it? I don't think anyone would disagree that the threshold for a reliever is much higher given their more limited value vis-à-vis a starter. The point everyone is making is that Rivera easily trumps - more so than any other reliever - that threshold of excellence.

Sure he does. Mariano deserves to be in. Playing half the game. Just like Edgar, who has so far been kept out due to playing half the game. They both deserve to be in. But they both only play half the game. So where does the slope end? Do the BBWAA conveniently forget this fact when Mo gets in on the first ballot? Probably. Wholly, ridiculously unfair. "You play half the game and are the best at your position in history! You don't get in! You have to wait!" "You play half the game and are the best at your position in history! You get in! You don't have to wait!"

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

You're still missing the giant ass point that Mariano Rivera is considered to be one of the greatest baseball players, period, to ever put on a uniform, while Edgar Martinez is not.

Maybe that's unfair in your eyes, but it's reality.

I'm not quite sure what Mo's xRQ759er to the 8th power stats are... but I know he's a legend.

I know Edgar was really good.

They do not belong together. Put Edgar against Trevor Hoffman. He ain't Mo good. Period.

Mariano Rivera was such an overwhelming force that he changed the way opponents approached the game because he shortened it to 8 innings. If you weren't winning by then, you weren't winning. He struck hear into the hearts of opposing players. His regular season stats are great, and his post season stats, which matter greatly when you're talking hall of fame, are even better.

Edgar Martinez was good. Mariano Rivera was a god.

 

[Hewson]

Keep boinkin that chicken

Sure he does. Mariano deserves to be in. Playing half the game. Just like Edgar, who has so far been kept out due to playing half the game. They both deserve to be in. But they both only play half the game. So where does the slope end? Do the BBWAA conveniently forget this fact when Mo gets in on the first ballot? Probably. Wholly, ridiculously unfair. "You play half the game and are the best at your position in history! You don't get in! You have to wait!" "You play half the game and are the best at your position in history! You get in! You don't have to wait!"

How the hell did any starters ever make the HoF?? Egads man, they only play 20% of the time.

 

[the tourist]

How the hell did any starters ever make the HoF?? Egads man, they only play 20% of the time.

Just one more reason that Edgar not getting into the HOF because he is a DH, and only because he is a DH is absolutely retarded.

 

[Hewson]

I don't think thats the case, the more I think about it he's being kept out because he looks suspiciously like a steroid user.

 

[the tourist]

I don't think thats the case, the more I think about it he's being kept out because he looks suspiciously like a steroid user.

Yeah, both he and Pedro Martinez. There's about as much evidence of one as the other.

 

[PhilsFan]

You're a National League fan. It makes sense that you think a relief pitcher is more integral than a DH.

Yeah, I've been meaning to ask you, what is a DH? I've been stumped this entire discussion. Speaking of which, what is this American League you've been going on about? I've never heard of it.

Dynamite argument there. Really, go with that.

 

[Hewson]

Oh Pedro was juicing for sure. He kept his stash inside Nelson de le Rosa.

 

[the tourist]

Yeah, I've been meaning to ask you, what is a DH? I've been stumped this entire discussion. Speaking of which, what is this American League you've been going on about? I've never heard of it.

Dynamite argument there. Really, go with that.

Because I clearly stated that you don't know what it is, right? You know, instead of stating that you don't value it. Yay for strawman theories!

 

[PhilsFan]

Because you basically stated the only possible way to comprehend the value of the designated hitter is by rooting for teams in the American League, as if having been a baseball fan for 21 years isn't enough to have an idea of what a good DH can do to help a team. So, basically, yeah, you said I don't "get" it.

Your basic premise is that a very good DH is as valuable or more valuable than the best, most dominating closer of all-time, which is insane according to ... every person in this thread but you.

 

[the tourist]

Because you basically stated the only possible way to comprehend the value of the designated hitter is by rooting for teams in the American League, as if having been a baseball fan for 21 years isn't enough to have an idea of what a good DH can do to help a team. So, basically, yeah, you said I don't "get" it.

Your basic premise is that a very good DH is as valuable or more valuable than the best, most dominating closer of all-time, which is insane according to ... every person in this thread but you.

WAR calculates value. Edgar ranks ahead of Mo currently. You're stating something that goes against all forward-thinking baseball minds. But okay. This thread knows better.

(And hey, I didn't "basically state" anything of the sort - you're reading into it the way you want to and thusly exaggerating my meaning, thus creating a strawman theory - I know that you "get" what a DH is - I just don't believe you value it as a position since I've read you saying it's a stupid position before)

Also, you got my premise wrong. It's that if someone is kept out of the Hall while being the best at their position for only playing half the game, then someone else should be kept out of the Hall while being the best at their position for only playing half the game.

 

[Imperor]

Pitchers and catchers need to report already so we have something less stupid to talk about.

 

[gump]

Speaking of Hall of Fame, who are the active players that you think will make it?

Albert Pujols
Derek Jeter
Chipper Jones
Jim Thome
Alex Rodriguez (obviously the PED issue may come up, but he will be eligible after Bonds, Clemens, etc)
Roy Halladay
Mariano Rivera

Also, I think some others will make it with a few more good years

Chase Utley
Lance Berkman
Carlos Beltran
Ichiro! (if last year's decline is not permanent)
CC Sabathia

I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few (and I'm ignoring those that are still somewhat early in their careers but on a HOF path, like Miguel Cabrera).

 

[the tourist]

Speaking of Hall of Fame, who are the active players that you think will make it?

Albert Pujols
Derek Jeter
Chipper Jones
Jim Thome
Alex Rodriguez (obviously the PED issue may come up, but he will be eligible after Bonds, Clemens, etc)
Roy Halladay
Mariano Rivera

Also, I think some others will make it with a few more good years

Chase Utley
Lance Berkman
Carlos Beltran
Ichiro! (if last year's decline is not permanent)
CC Sabathia

I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few (and I'm ignoring those that are still somewhat early in their careers but on a HOF path, like Miguel Cabrera).

Ichiro holds the single season hit record as well as being the only player in the history of the game to put up 10 200 hit seasons (not even counting in a row). He's as deserving as anyone on the above list.

I'd add Beltre to the Cabrera list.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I think you unfairly grouped Lance Berkman on that list. After last year, I'd say he's up there on that list with those relative shoo-ins.

 

[the tourist]

I think you unfairly grouped Lance Berkman on that list. After last year, I'd say he's up there on that list with those relative shoo-ins.

He'll probably need two or three more years at the same level of production. A lot of guys who are deserving haven't gotten in because of counting stats and Berkman simply doesn't have the counting stats to be a lock. Todd Helton should be ahead of Berkman.

 

[Hewson]

Ichiro is a lock, cause his Japanese years will be considered as well.

Carlos Beltran has zero chance.

 

[MrPryck2U]

I agree. Ichiro is a lock. I think 2011 was an abberation. (Hope I spelled that right) The M's sucked last year and even Ichiro was affected.

What about everybody's buddy, Manny? Does he get in?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

WAR calculates value. Edgar ranks ahead of Mo currently. You're stating something that goes against all forward-thinking baseball minds. But okay. This thread knows better.

WAR was invented by a fat twit who never did an athletic thing in his life. And people who look at stats as the word, indisputable evidence of an athlete's worth, likely falls into the same category.

Stats are a great tool. Its not the end all be all. When a stat tells you that Edgar Martinez is better than Mariano Rivera, a logical speaking person should go...

"hmm, perhaps I should take that one with a grain of salt, because the idea that Edgar was better than Mo is fucking insane, and I'd have to be a crazy person to believe such a thing. In fact, maybe I should not place such an emphasis on these crazy stats if it tells me something that it so utterly and obviously wrong."

Show me a well respected "forward thinking" baseball mind who would make such an asinine statement. Please. I beg of you.

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

WAR was invented by a fat twit who never did an athletic thing in his life. And people who look at stats as the word, indisputable evidence of an athlete's worth, likely falls into the same category.

Stats are a great tool. Its not the end all be all.

This this this this this.

A million times this.

 

[the tourist]

You guys better stay away from fangraphs or front offices.

 

[PhilsFan]

I like sabermetrics to a point. But I know the difference Mo made on games and the difference Edgar made on games.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

You guys better stay away from fangraphs or front offices.

Again... well respected baseball mind who thinks Edgar Martinez was more valuable than Mariano Rivera. Present that person, please.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I like sabermetrics to a point. But I know the difference Mo made on games and the difference Edgar made on games.

Exactly.

Stats are a great tool to measure performance. One's own eyes is a great tool as well. Using either independent of the other is fucking retarded.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Be careful with that. 'One's own eyes' can be deceptive. I'd rather see think of it as 'one's own mind'. Judge with your eyes and your wowometer factor is going to shoot up every time Robert Andino walks a ballgame off.