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Old 10-07-2010, 10:02 AM   #861
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Good one. Ignore absolutely everything I write, and make a funny [not] statement.

You've got no response to it. You know what you're called? A hater.
if you insist...


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I completely understand (and I agree) that LeBron is a gigantic egohead. I cant say the same about Wade. Wade for the most part keeps to himself. I dont like LeBron as a person (although I'm sure anybody would want his skills on their team).
agree to disagree about diane wade.

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We will see about the defensive styles of teams. Boston is probably one of the very few teams that wouldn't have to run zone against Miami, but the point is during the playoffs the Heat had one man, Dwyane Wade. Who was essentially triple covered. And still produced. Boston cant do that anymore.
i ignored this because you're essentially wrong in your assessment about how boston guarded wade and lebron, because you believe that great defensive roations = triple teamed. a double (or triple) team involves players completely leaving their man to force the ball out of another player's hands. the celtics guarded lebron and wade straight up. their help defenders shaded them, as all help defenders would do against great player. the main difference is that the celtics had/have the best defensive rotations seen in the NBA since the mid 90's... likely a byproduct not just of having great defensive coaches, but also of having such a veteran team, as most of the new breed of NBA stars never even learn how to properly play man-to-man defense because nobody plays defense in AAU and they don't stay in college long enough to learn it.

if anything, the fact that lerbon and wade are inconsistent outside shooters plays into the hands of a team that rotates as well as boston does; as you need to be able to knock down the open jumper to beat them. mike miller will be key to being able to beat boston, probably more so than bosh.

the bulls are now coached by the guy who ran boston's defense, and they have a big, long, athletic team. it's yet to be seen if chicago's players will be willing to buy in to playing the same way, but i'm leaning to yes on that one.

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I dont understand why Bosh being top 10 would exactly be 'comical' although I'd agree with you in saying he's not top 10. But in terms of positions... they have top 5 players in each of their respective positions. IMO though, Stoudemire > Bosh > Boozer.
stoudemire and boozer have both gone deep into the playoffs. bosh has been the focal point of a team that people thought were going to "take the next step" who never did. he's been a good player on a bad team. one could argue the exact same thing about pao gasol, but bosh doesn't have the kind of post repertoire that pao has, and isn't nearly as good a passer as pao is. frankly i don't know how bosh fits into a lineup that will more or less be a modified dribble drive.

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Furthermore, this Miami team honestly looks like the equivalent of last years Cleveland Caviliers (+ Wade + Bosh). That's why it yells a potential dynasty. It depends on what you really call a dynasty though. Perhaps I'm using the word out of context... but if they are a top 3 team in the league for 6 years straight it might be different as opposed to winning 5 championships.
firstly, the past few years of cavs teams all were massive "disappointments" who were smoked out of the playoffs. secondly, those cavs teams had more depth than this heat team does, even though the heat certainly are more topheavy talent wise.

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I really find it quite unfair to say they have 0 depth. Big Z, Joel Anthony (a defensive shutdown, that's who will be guarding Dwight Howard), Udonis Haslem, and Bosh can all serve at the center position. Furthermore, if I were Spoelstra (I hope he gets fired to be honest, he's horrible), it wouldnt take a genius to cycle these 3 players. If you keep one on the bench at most times, you have scoring threat constantly.
i don't. they're depth consists of mike miller, who frankly should be starting with lebron at the point instead of bronson arroyo and his wicked curveball, and i'll give you that udonis is a nice, serviceable big man who can play his role very well. after that their roster is an absolute joke. really... juwan howard? what, was tom gugliotta booked? joel anthony? really? you're going to argue the virtues of having joel anthony in the starting lineup? joel anthony blows.

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And for the comment about Bosh carrying his team to a 40-42 record... to carry a team doesnt mean you need to carry them to the playoffs. Face it, without Bosh they were really, really bad. He carried them night in and night out. If Miami cycles those 3 players, Bosh can essentially make up for that proclaimed lack of depth on the bench.
as the saying goes... if the team can suck with the player, the team can suck without the player. bosh didn't carry shit. yes... to carry a team DOES mean that they actually have to bring them to some level of success. it may be semantics, but to say a guy "carried" a team to a below .500 record is pretty silly.

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If you have any combination of the 3 out on the court at any single time, it's probably better than what the Raptors, Heat, or Cavs had all last season. Needless to say with the addition of Boozer, Chicago has almost created the same form of a triple threat.

I never said that the Heat are a dynasty in waiting. I said that if they can put it all together, they are. That's a fair statement. It's not guaranteed that they do, but if they can all work together and play as well cooperatively as they did individually last season (and play defense), 1+1+1=3. It adds up.

I guess only time will tell. But the potential is definitely there.
the thing is... when you put three guys together who are used to getting their touches, they can not possibly play as well cooperatively as they did individually. it's simply not possible. too many chiefs, not enough indians. somebody has to play a role. you can't have everyone getting the touches they've had in the past; there's only one ball. either all three have to sacrifice a lot and buy into a system, or one guy is going to be significantly left out. it's easy to say "oh he averaged 30, he averaged 28, he averaged 22... put 'em together and that's 80 points from three players!" reality is much, much different. boston had three guys towards the end of their careers who were willing to sacrifice individual glory for team glory. they are the exception to the rule. in most cases, when teams put stars together, the end result is not what was expected, because somebody isn't willing to play a lesser role. shaq and kobe only worked when shaq was the better player. once kobe became shaq's equal, they stopped winning.

as for dynasty? to say a team could become a dynasty before they've even played one game is just silly. shit happens. ego's explode, tendon's pop, ACL's blow; and that's not even to mention, oh, kobe bryant, kevin durant, carmelo anthony, dwight howard, etc. etc. etc.

again... would the heat winning the title this year shock me? not in the least... the only thing that would shock me is a team other than the lakers, the bulls, the heat, the celtics, the thunder and possibly random contender that manages to get carmelo without giving up significant parts winning the title.

in order? lakers, bulls, heat, celtics, thunder, random 'melo team.
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:09 PM   #862
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Joel Anthony is not going to be the Heat's Kendrick Perkins. And Chalmers will not be the Heat's version of Rondo.

Headache - does Shavlik Randolph fill the void that a Tom Gugliotta might have filled?
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:00 PM   #863
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if you insist...
Now that's more like it.

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i ignored this because you're essentially wrong in your assessment about how boston guarded wade and lebron, because you believe that great defensive roations = triple teamed. a double (or triple) team involves players completely leaving their man to force the ball out of another player's hands. the celtics guarded lebron and wade straight up. their help defenders shaded them, as all help defenders would do against great player. the main difference is that the celtics had/have the best defensive rotations seen in the NBA since the mid 90's... likely a byproduct not just of having great defensive coaches, but also of having such a veteran team, as most of the new breed of NBA stars never even learn how to properly play man-to-man defense because nobody plays defense in AAU and they don't stay in college long enough to learn it.
With LeBron, I was going on a limb. I didnt actually fully watch that series.

Go ahead and watch the videos though. Most of the time when Wade had his hands on the ball in slow paced or high pressure situations, immediately another player would be running up next to him. And late in the game, there were indeed 3 players moving into him at a time.



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stoudemire and boozer have both gone deep into the playoffs. bosh has been the focal point of a team that people thought were going to "take the next step" who never did. he's been a good player on a bad team. one could argue the exact same thing about pao gasol, but bosh doesn't have the kind of post repertoire that pao has, and isn't nearly as good a passer as pao is. frankly i don't know how bosh fits into a lineup that will more or less be a modified dribble drive.
I think the point that's being missed is that Bosh is still all-star worthy. And even if he's not with the Heat, his addition of size to the team will be something that the Heat needed last year (and Jermaine O'Neal doesnt count. He was just awful.)



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firstly, the past few years of cavs teams all were massive "disappointments" who were smoked out of the playoffs. secondly, those cavs teams had more depth than this heat team does, even though the heat certainly are more topheavy talent wise.

i don't. they're depth consists of mike miller, who frankly should be starting with lebron at the point instead of bronson arroyo and his wicked curveball, and i'll give you that udonis is a nice, serviceable big man who can play his role very well. after that their roster is an absolute joke. really... juwan howard? what, was tom gugliotta booked? joel anthony? really? you're going to argue the virtues of having joel anthony in the starting lineup? joel anthony blows.
Mike Miller will be starting sooner or later IMO. Okay, Juwan Howard is not very impressive. Arroyo serves his purpose, although I really dont like him myself. You're really not being fair with Joel Anthony though. You cant just look at the guys stats and claim he blows. He's a player that every Heat fan wanted back. He plays a solid defensive game. We dont need an offensive center starting for us. All we need is a man big enough to hold down that center spot offensively. Anthony can do that.

The team's not deep, but it has more than 3 to 5 quality players.



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as the saying goes... if the team can suck with the player, the team can suck without the player. bosh didn't carry shit. yes... to carry a team DOES mean that they actually have to bring them to some level of success. it may be semantics, but to say a guy "carried" a team to a below .500 record is pretty silly.
Well then honestly you just take the word differently. Think about it from a players perspective. On the court. To stay in this game, we need 2 points. Who do we go to? Chris Bosh. Because he's carrying this team full of scrubs right now with 20 points. Without Bosh, this game was over before it started. That's how I see it.


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the thing is... when you put three guys together who are used to getting their touches, they can not possibly play as well cooperatively as they did individually. it's simply not possible. too many chiefs, not enough indians. somebody has to play a role. you can't have everyone getting the touches they've had in the past; there's only one ball. either all three have to sacrifice a lot and buy into a system, or one guy is going to be significantly left out. it's easy to say "oh he averaged 30, he averaged 28, he averaged 22... put 'em together and that's 80 points from three players!" reality is much, much different. boston had three guys towards the end of their careers who were willing to sacrifice individual glory for team glory. they are the exception to the rule. in most cases, when teams put stars together, the end result is not what was expected, because somebody isn't willing to play a lesser role. shaq and kobe only worked when shaq was the better player. once kobe became shaq's equal, they stopped winning.
I would never suggest that 30 + 28 + 22 average PPG means 80. You're going to see high levels of fluctuations among points. Honestly, I think LeBron is going to see lower points but perhaps grab himself quite a bit of triple doubles this season.

That being said, even players considered as scrubs will see more points on average simply because they're going to find themselves open more often.

I dont think you're giving Wade, LeBron, and Bosh enough credit. I think they knew exactly what they were getting themselves into. I think, at least for the early years, there shouldnt be any ball issues. Once they win a championship (much like Kobe and Shaq), you might start to see issues arising.

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as for dynasty? to say a team could become a dynasty before they've even played one game is just silly. shit happens. ego's explode, tendon's pop, ACL's blow; and that's not even to mention, oh, kobe bryant, kevin durant, carmelo anthony, dwight howard, etc. etc. etc.
What do Kobe, Durant, Carmelo, or Howard have anything to do with the Heat NOT being a dynasty? The 90s Bulls were a dynasty. That doesnt mean other amazing players didnt exist in the 90s. The Heat becoming a dynasty rests solely in thier own hands.

I never called them a dynasty before they'd played a game. I said they can be a dynasty. You're the one being insistant upon them not having a chance at being a dynasty. Or at least, it's laughable to suggest such a thing.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:03 PM   #864
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You can disagree with Headache all you want, but I wouldn't say he's basing his assessments on people just based on stats.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:04 PM   #865
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He's basing it on racism.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:13 PM   #866
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You can disagree with Headache all you want, but I wouldn't say he's basing his assessments on people just based on stats.
What exactly do you mean? (I assume you're against me here considering that's the general concensus.

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He's basing it on racism.
You bet
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:15 PM   #867
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For whatever it's worth, I define carrying a team more like LuckyNumber7 does. Not sure there is a right or wrong with this one, but, if a shit team can finish around .500 due to a strong effort by one cat, that's carrying a team to me. As for the rest of the stuff, I got sleepy reading some of it so I don't remember the gist. I will say that Shannon carries this thread more often than not, so there's that.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:38 PM   #868
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What exactly do you mean? (I assume you're against me here considering that's the general concensus.
I mean that say what you want about Headache but the dude watches a lot of basketball. I seriously doubt his assessment of Joel Anthony is just based on checking box scores.
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:16 PM   #869
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I mean that say what you want about Headache but the dude watches a lot of basketball. I seriously doubt his assessment of Joel Anthony is just based on checking box scores.
Not saying the opposite. And from watching a good 75% of the Miami Heat games last season, I'm gonna disagree with him. Joel Anthony is not garbage. He's in no means a starter, but he is definitely a great option at center to have. He's good defensively. That's all we really need.
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Old 10-08-2010, 06:11 AM   #870
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He's basing it on racism.
And Byron Scott's necktie.
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Old 10-08-2010, 06:16 AM   #871
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What exactly do you mean? (I assume you're against me here considering that's the general concensus.
As you're new, you don't know what our fair Headache does for a living.
He is a former college basketball player and is currently employed as a basketball coach. He knows of what he speaks when talking about the game.

Doesn't mean that what he predicts for the Heat or any other team will come to pass, but he knows the game quite well, and if you hang around long enough you'll see that.

Plus he's the President of the Isiah Thomas fan club.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:40 AM   #872
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He's basing it on racism.
Whitey is always trying to hold me down.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:52 AM   #873
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For whatever it's worth, I define carrying a team more like LuckyNumber7 does. Not sure there is a right or wrong with this one, but, if a shit team can finish around .500 due to a strong effort by one cat, that's carrying a team to me. As for the rest of the stuff, I got sleepy reading some of it so I don't remember the gist. I will say that Shannon carries this thread more often than not, so there's that.
I understand the point that yes, bad team can be carried by a great player, technically speaking.

I guess my point is this... toronto should have been better. Calderon, Hedo, bargnani and bosh should be a playoff team in the east. They were 40-42. So what exactly did bosh carry? He had more talent around him than lebron did, but they were a bad team.

Obviously there are more things at play... chemistry, injuries, bad coaching, plus bosh needs someone to get him the ball... but he certainly didn't carry shit.
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:34 AM   #874
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Whitey is always trying to hold me down.


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Old 10-08-2010, 10:06 AM   #875
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Old 10-08-2010, 12:28 PM   #876
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Old 10-08-2010, 01:43 PM   #877
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I guess my point is this... toronto should have been better. Calderon, Hedo, bargnani and bosh should be a playoff team in the east. They were 40-42. So what exactly did bosh carry? He had more talent around him than lebron did, but they were a bad team.
Yeah, Hedo was a joke last year. Didn't he issue an apology to the fans at the end of the season for his less than stellar play?
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Old 10-08-2010, 06:57 PM   #878
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He did and was... but he is still a talented guy who has been good everywhere else he's been.
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Old 10-08-2010, 06:57 PM   #879
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I understand the point that yes, bad team can be carried by a great player, technically speaking.

I guess my point is this... toronto should have been better. Calderon, Hedo, bargnani and bosh should be a playoff team in the east. They were 40-42. So what exactly did bosh carry? He had more talent around him than lebron did, but they were a bad team.

Obviously there are more things at play... chemistry, injuries, bad coaching, plus bosh needs someone to get him the ball... but he certainly didn't carry shit.
Bosh will be an after-thought in Miami, especially if Wade is healthy. 17 & 8 for Bosh maybe?

He signed a great contract, to his credit.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:08 PM   #880
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Bosh will be an after-thought in Miami, especially if Wade is healthy. 17 & 8 for Bosh maybe?

He signed a great contract, to his credit.
Bosh would've gotten that contract anywhere else he went though. It's kind of stupid that all of these players are equal in terms of money. That's the NBA's fault (at the same time smaller rosters make that happen too). In my opinion, they need a complete restructuring of the cap system (because a soft cap is silly). They're gonna end up throwing off competition if talent keeps concentrating. I honestly feel that the NHL has the most ideal cap system in effect of the 4 major N.A. sports.
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