The National: Sunshine on My B&Ck

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Also, I appreciate this album's lyrical subtlety. As much as I love Trouble Will Find Me and songs like Demons and Don't Swallow the Cap, they were kind of yelling "I'm depressed!!!" from the rooftops. Sleep Well Beast is much more impressionistic in its themes.
 
A 5 for I'll Still Destroy You? Listen again. That's easily one of the most creative and overwhelming tracks on the album. The outro is sensational and absolutely hits that next gear you're looking for. My third favorite song on the album, along with the Nobody Else and The System.

Born to Beg sounds exactly like all of the ballads from TWFM that people swoon over, only with a better melody than most of those tracks. A bit of familiarity will do that track a lot of good.

Day I Die took a little while to grow on me because it's such boilerplate National outside of the electronic window dressing, but it certainly has become a track I'm fond of. It has a fantastic melody that sticks with me longer than almost anything else here and there's a wonderful breeziness to the performances, the way verse switches to chorus switches to bridge. A lot of that stems from the drumming, which feels like it's a microsecond ahead of everything else, pulling it forward with all its might.

Bryan's drumming is the MVP of this album in general. The use of electronic percussion gives his more organic sounds that much more bite; often the surfacing of his snare will serve as a signal that something special is coming, as in Empire Line.
 
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Yeah if there was any lingering doubt that Bryan is the best drummer in rock right now, this album should erase it.
 
Gump, any thing to note about the live performances of this era as yet? Been keeping an eye on the setlists so far, each one has been better than the last, thanks to a larger smattering of TWFM and High Violet, and great to see Geese, Baby We'll Be Fine, All the Wine, Lucky You find their way into a few sets.


I’ll catch them in two weeks and have stayed away from setlists since the tour began, so I have no idea! The live performances I managed to see at the Apple Store were great though - these songs are still good without some of the bells and whistles they have on the studio, and I think the drumming gets even more up front live.

One aspect of this album that I absolutely love is the piano tones they manage to get. The moment that first chord hits on Guilt Party is beautiful (similar to the intro to Nobody Else Will Be There - the piano gets the album started).

It turns out that Doveman (Thomas Bartlett) is the guy playing keyboards in this album. He plays in many of the albums put out by St. Vincent and Sufjan. If you listen to the piano in Blue Bucket of Gold, the tone and voicing is quite similar to Sleep Well Beast. In the Song Exploder episode on New York, Annie Clark sings his praises. It’s an almost magical sound that gives this album many of its qualities.
 
This forum/general indie rock fandom/critics have been weird with The National. When I started posting more in B&C, they were untouchable, thanks to Alligator and especially Boxer. For a long time it felt like Boxer was one of those indie rock touchstones, like Funeral or OK Computer or Kid A, even (vomit) In the Aeroplane Over the Sea. And over time I've come to appreciate that it's not quite... it's just the long-time National fans make it seem so. (For the record I like the album a lot, it just took years to grow on me, and it's probably fifth on my list of National albums, behind Sad Songs and Alligator).

Anyway, with High Violet, The National went from being a beloved band for those in-the-know to a big act (and then with TWFM they effectively became an arena act). And I have long noticed here (and I believe it's reflected elsewhere) a pushback at the band over the course of those two records. Nothing significant, as those two are still very well-liked, but older fans seemed to turn their noses up a little bit and I've always felt that and not liked it. High Violet and TWFM are my two favourite National records by a country mile and I think sometimes they cop a raw deal for being of their signature sound, and being more accessible, both musically and lyrically, than previous works. I saw this reflected in critical commentary as well, this thing of "oh it's another record that sounds exactly as you would expect of The National, they're still really good but they're getting boring so they're not vital anymore" and I just hate those comments, because it's not at all true for me.

It probably has a lot to do with me coming to The National with High Violet, rather than a lot of long-term fans. I feel very defensive of them both.

This is just me talking out loud, really, because I've got literally nowhere else to do it this specifically. I've got a lot of friends who rep for HV/TWFM (including my girlfriend), but it bums me sometimes because I read so much other commentary.
 
High Violet is a really muddy, drab-sounding album, but all 11 of its tracks are solid. It's a great listen if you're looking for some grey indie rock, but virtually everything they've put out has a greater emotional impact on me despite the profound degree of nostalgia I have for HV because their other albums are generally less mannered and safe. Even TWFM stretches their sonic palette out further (i.e. at all) despite the criticism it received for being Just Another National Album.

Boxer deserves credit as an indie rock touchstone for its sublime chamber pop production and endless supply of great songwriting. When I return to it, I'm consistently staggered by how many classics are on it (Fake Empire, Mistaken for Strangers, Slow Show, Apartment Story, Start a War). In retrospect, the album was the formation of their signature sound, but it was, at the time, something of a left turn. They doubled down on qualities of their sound that weren't being privileged in their live show (remember when Matt's screams were such a big deal that they made their way onto the records?) and inadvertently created an identity for themselves.

The band's signature characteristics were embraced for HV, which was their first attempt at crystallizing their sound into something consistently midtempo instead of jarringly bipolar (Sad Songs, Alligator) or almost entirely downbeat and graceful (Boxer). I don't like that they made this move because it sanded a lot of the edges off, but it was undeniably a success for them. I think the transition out of Boxer was handled well, but I doubt I'll be as impacted by any of their future albums as I was by that one. It showed up in my life at the right time and introduced me to a band that didn't feel larger than life. Their music felt personal and hand-crafted and I could root for them. Streamlining that sound into something bigger, more reverb-drenched and obvious worked out great for their career, but I couldn't connect with it in the same way.

Now with Sleep Well Beast at least they seem interested in embracing subtlety and dynamics again. I loved TWFM more than most, but it and HV were not their most subtle works from either a lyrical or sonic perspective, and the band hadn't exactly sounded dynamic since Alligator. I listen to Sleep Well Beast and, at least for a while, am kept on my toes.
 
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With every band that has a respectable lifespan, there are, I think, roads taken and roads not taken. That's part of it, to the extent that there is some grumbling about the post-2007 The National.

It is the same with any band. Take U2 circa The Unforgettable Fire. They could have gone all sorts of places. Some directions begin to seem more set in stone with hindsight, but that is an illusion.

And so it is with The National. The rather stately, sombre, earnest songwriting of this decade was not an obvious future when they did albums like Alligator or Boxer, although many of those tendencies are there in nascent form. They've shed some things - lyrically in particular - that attracted me, and they've gained some things, in musical dexterity. It's neither good nor bad (well, ok, it is, but that's personal opinion). I consider them a very good band who have yet to truly blow it. But I can understand why some fans take a different tone to their later career.
 
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Anyway, with High Violet, The National went from being a beloved band for those in-the-know to a big act (and then with TWFM they effectively became an arena act). And I have long noticed here (and I believe it's reflected elsewhere) a pushback at the band over the course of those two records. Nothing significant, as those two are still very well-liked, but older fans seemed to turn their noses up a little bit and I've always felt that and not liked it. High Violet and TWFM are my two favourite National records by a country mile and I think sometimes they cop a raw deal for being of their signature sound, and being more accessible, both musically and lyrically, than previous works. I saw this reflected in critical commentary as well, this thing of "oh it's another record that sounds exactly as you would expect of The National, they're still really good but they're getting boring so they're not vital anymore" and I just hate those comments, because it's not at all true for me.

I think you're right that something changed with High Violet in terms of their fan base. I saw them right at the beginning of that tour in a small venue surrounded by intense fans, the type that were yelling out for tracks from Sad Songs. Then I saw them again on the final leg of that tour at a sizable venue that was largely full of frat types seemingly there to be seen rather than for the music. Anecdotal, I know, but I think it puts Sleep Well Beast into an even more impressive perspective that they have now eschewed a lot of what was drawing in the frat crowd. I mean, none of these songs are going to appear in an Apple commercial the way England did a few years back.
 
High Violet is a really muddy, drab-sounding album, but all 11 of its tracks are solid. It's a great listen if you're looking for some grey indie rock, but virtually everything they've put out has a greater emotional impact on me despite the profound degree of nostalgia I have for HV because their other albums are generally less mannered and safe.

Calling HV drab and grey is overly harsh IMO. Terrible Love and Afraid of Everyone are just two examples of songs that are bursting with emotion and flare. That's not even to mention Bloodbuzz. Not every song on there is Little Faith.
 
Calling HV drab and grey is overly harsh IMO. Terrible Love and Afraid of Everyone are just two examples of songs that are bursting with emotion and flare. That's not even to mention Bloodbuzz. Not every song on there is Little Faith.
I was talking about the production, not so much the performances or songwriting. Everything sounds a little muted and drab and they had a really heavy hand with the reverb.

Surprise, surprise, it was their first entirely self-produced album. They got Peter Katis back for Sleep Well Beast and he nailed it.
 
Yeah, I'd say the only thing they haven't done enough of with their studio albums is allowed that raw edge from their live performances into the mix. Even when they did the alternate mix of Terrible Love, it never got close to the visceral noise of that song when it's at full blast. I saw them in 2010 close their set with Terrible Love and it's the loudest single song I have heard in concert.

Graceless is a similar case. That song fucking rocks live, and in the studio it's a little too muted.
 
This forum/general indie rock fandom/critics have been weird with The National. When I started posting more in B&C, they were untouchable, thanks to Alligator and especially Boxer. For a long time it felt like Boxer was one of those indie rock touchstones, like Funeral or OK Computer or Kid A, even (vomit) In the Aeroplane Over the Sea. And over time I've come to appreciate that it's not quite... it's just the long-time National fans make it seem so. (For the record I like the album a lot, it just took years to grow on me, and it's probably fifth on my list of National albums, behind Sad Songs and Alligator).


So you'd rank Sleep Well Beast only above the debut? Nothing wrong with your opinion but it's such a shame you're disappointed with the new album, sucks when that happens. Where would you slot in Cherry Tree just out of interest?

And I wouldn't worry about liking what you like if it goes against the cool kid consensus. There's people on this board who rank NLOTH as their second favourite U2 album. Not my preference but more power to them, right? And besides, you wouldn't be Cobbler if you didn't champion the material that comes out right after the critical peak.

I'd also add my axe to what El Mel, iYup and Phils said above regarding HV/TWFM. I don't find myself returning to those albums nearly as much as Cherry Tree - Alligator - Boxer for those reasons, but I feel a kind of In Rainbows moment happening with ...Beast, after liking but not loving the two albums prior to them both. Won't be surprised if this and Boxer become my top two Nationals by year end.
 
I'm probably somewhere like this:

1. Alligator
2. Boxer
3. High Violet
4. Sleep Well Beast
5. Trouble Will Find Me
6. Sad Songs
7. S/T

And I really like Sad Songs, so they're all great albums to me.
 
National albums tend to absorb emotion and nostalgia like a sponge, so it wouldn't be fair for me to rank Sleep Well Beast already. It would be purely on aesthetic merits.

But I'm starting to have that happy/sad heart-in-throat feeling while listening to most of these songs, so it's well on its way.
 
I must admit that as a single man, the early albums are more broadly relatable since the relationship stuff doesn't mean all that much to me. So there's a certain bias of inexperience in play with that.
 
High Violet is a really muddy, drab-sounding album, but all 11 of its tracks are solid. It's a great listen if you're looking for some grey indie rock, but virtually everything they've put out has a greater emotional impact on me despite the profound degree of nostalgia I have for HV because their other albums are generally less mannered and safe. Even TWFM stretches their sonic palette out further (i.e. at all) despite the criticism it received for being Just Another National Album.

Boxer deserves credit as an indie rock touchstone for its sublime chamber pop production and endless supply of great songwriting. When I return to it, I'm consistently staggered by how many classics are on it (Fake Empire, Mistaken for Strangers, Slow Show, Apartment Story, Start a War). In retrospect, the album was the formation of their signature sound, but it was, at the time, something of a left turn. They doubled down on qualities of their sound that weren't being privileged in their live show (remember when Matt's screams were such a big deal that they made their way onto the records?) and inadvertently created an identity for themselves.

The band's signature characteristics were embraced for HV, which was their first attempt at crystallizing their sound into something consistently midtempo instead of jarringly bipolar (Sad Songs, Alligator) or almost entirely downbeat and graceful (Boxer). I don't like that they made this move because it sanded a lot of the edges off, but it was undeniably a success for them. I think the transition out of Boxer was handled well, but I doubt I'll be as impacted by any of their future albums as I was by that one. It showed up in my life at the right time and introduced me to a band that didn't feel larger than life. Their music felt personal and hand-crafted and I could root for them. Streamlining that sound into something bigger, more reverb-drenched and obvious worked out great for their career, but I couldn't connect with it in the same way.

Now with Sleep Well Beast at least they seem interested in embracing subtlety and dynamics again. I loved TWFM more than most, but it and HV were not their most subtle works from either a lyrical or sonic perspective, and the band hadn't exactly sounded dynamic since Alligator. I listen to Sleep Well Beast and, at least for a while, am kept on my toes.

I think this is exceedingly harsh. We’re not going to agree, but to me, it’s full of vitality and emotion. A lot of the claims you level at High Violet - drab, grey, midtempo - are exactly what I think of Boxer. Adore Fake Empire, Mistaken for Strangers, Brainy, Apartment Story, Slow Show, the rest is a complete wash for me. Squalor Victoria I’ve come around to only because of the drumming and the memories of the stellar live version. It’s a pleasant listen from start to finish but doesn’t come remotely close to High Violet or TWFM me for impact in my opinion. And try as I might, I can’t hear these drastic differences between Boxer and High Violet. I get where you’re coming from in terms of them going from a heroic small indie rock band whose reach exceeded their grasp to one that nailed a certain sound and got hugely popular off it, but I think that really undersells the astonishing strength of the songwriting found on High Violet and TWFM.

I think you're right that something changed with High Violet in terms of their fan base. I saw them right at the beginning of that tour in a small venue surrounded by intense fans, the type that were yelling out for tracks from Sad Songs. Then I saw them again on the final leg of that tour at a sizable venue that was largely full of frat types seemingly there to be seen rather than for the music. Anecdotal, I know, but I think it puts Sleep Well Beast into an even more impressive perspective that they have now eschewed a lot of what was drawing in the frat crowd. I mean, none of these songs are going to appear in an Apple commercial the way England did a few years back.

Firstly, that’s not their fault and secondly I think it’s a misrepresentation. At least from the crowds I’ve seen at the four shows I’ve seen them at (one High Violet, three TWFM). Maybe it’s different in America but again I think this really undersells the band and makes them seem like they’ve forsaken indie-rock-for-the-little-guy for indistinguishable, safe arena music, which I just think is crap. :shrug:

Not every song on there is Little Faith.

I ADORE Little Faith. I’ve never been able to understand what people hate about it. The strung-out intro leads into this on-edge piano and then Matt walks in with these creepy vocals. It’s a fucking fantastic song.

Yeah, I'd say the only thing they haven't done enough of with their studio albums is allowed that raw edge from their live performances into the mix. Even when they did the alternate mix of Terrible Love, it never got close to the visceral noise of that song when it's at full blast. I saw them in 2010 close their set with Terrible Love and it's the loudest single song I have heard in concert.

Graceless is a similar case. That song fucking rocks live, and in the studio it's a little too muted.

I can agree with this. Turtleneck is their most aggressive studio track since Alligator, if not Sad Songs. But I don’t mind it too much, cos it makes the live shows go on another level.

So you'd rank Sleep Well Beast only above the debut? Nothing wrong with your opinion but it's such a shame you're disappointed with the new album, sucks when that happens. Where would you slot in Cherry Tree just out of interest?

And I wouldn't worry about liking what you like if it goes against the cool kid consensus. There's people on this board who rank NLOTH as their second favourite U2 album. Not my preference but more power to them, right? And besides, you wouldn't be Cobbler if you didn't champion the material that comes out right after the critical peak.

I'd also add my axe to what El Mel, iYup and Phils said above regarding HV/TWFM. I don't find myself returning to those albums nearly as much as Cherry Tree - Alligator - Boxer for those reasons, but I feel a kind of In Rainbows moment happening with ...Beast, after liking but not loving the two albums prior to them both. Won't be surprised if this and Boxer become my top two Nationals by year end.

Haha. I do like Sleep Well Beast, just don’t love it at this point in time. (Although it’s worth noting High Violet is The National’s highest-scored album on Pitchfork…)

I think at the moment, I’d rate them:

1. Trouble Will Find Me
2. High Violet
3. Alligator
4. Sad Songs for Dirty Lovers

Too early to say between Boxer and Sleep Well Beast. Cherry Tree is great, and contains one of their all-time greatest songs, but probably falls in behind. I’ve not heard the debut.

Mind you, it’s worth repeating that I like all of them. I fucking adore this band, just like everyone here, but just wanted to vocalise an interesting trend I’ve seen thanks to the release of Sleep Well Beast: it’s been much more warmly received by pre-HV fans than it has been by HV-onwards fans. There’s a definite divide between the two groups, and I’m definitely in the latter, and I just get a little annoyed sometimes because I feel this implication (generally) that those who came to the band with HV are simpletons.

45 songs in the tour’s 11 shows so far, by the way. There was 61 in 165 on TWFM tour. Exciting times to be a National fan.
 
Another point I want to make: how good are this band at b-sides/non-album cuts?! Exile Vilify, So Far Around the Bend, Wake Up Your Saints, You Were a Kindness, Sin-Eaters, Think You Can Wait...
 
Firstly, that’s not their fault and secondly I think it’s a misrepresentation. At least from the crowds I’ve seen at the four shows I’ve seen them at (one High Violet, three TWFM). Maybe it’s different in America but again I think this really undersells the band and makes them seem like they’ve forsaken indie-rock-for-the-little-guy for indistinguishable, safe arena music, which I just think is crap. :shrug:

Not claiming it's their fault at all, nor that HV or Trouble are lesser works for being more popular. I love those two albums as much as anyone. But Sleep Well Beast does feel to me like a departure from what was a more arena-style sound.
 
They streamlined and commercialized their sound by cranking up the reverb to make everything sound larger (think 00s Coldplay/Keane/Snow Patrol) keeping things more uniform in terms of vibe and tempo, and focusing on more broadly relatable topics (romantic relationships, family, loneliness). High Violet has a much more arena friendly sound than the spare, nocturnal Boxer does. Matt's writing became more direct with TWFM, largely eschewing bizarre turns of phrase for melancholy confessionals.

Is any of this inherently bad? No. It only sounds that way because I find these albums to be a step back and I'm the one describing the changes, but they could be spun positively: the band finally gave some meat to their skeletal indie rock sound. Matt stopped hiding behind non sequiturs. They stopped wasting our time with avenues that don't quite work. It's just different. They found their niche, nailed it and grew in popularity.

Old school National fans are responding well to Sleep Well Beast because they've brought dynamics back to their sound and they're taking chances. It's a refreshing listen. I've been listening to them for over a decade and this is an album they really needed to make.
 
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I became a fan after the release of Boxer/before High Violet. Slow Show was on a mix cd that the singer of my band at the time had made for me of music he wanted to introduce me to.

My opinion of the albums is that Alligator and Trouble Will Find Me are the most accessible and so I find myself listening to them the most. I usually feel like I don't like High Violet or Boxer as much until I turn them on. And then I love them. 5-7 on High Violet might be their best run in my estimate. I haven't listened to Sad Songs enough to rate it. It's in my iTunes but I've probably only listened to it 2 or 3 times. Only listened to the S/T once.
 
Ugh, they're in Boston tomorrow night, and I'm flying to Boston tomorrow, but don't land until like midnight. Tragic timing.
 
Really interesting tour so far. They're switching it up a lot each night.

Seeing them Wednesday.
 
The National: Sunshine on My B&Ck

Same here! My tickets are for GA. What about you?



Went on GA as well. Hope you had a good time! That crowd was pretty awesome.

Damn, this band is so good. This was perhaps my favorite National concert, and I’ve seen my share of them. The band is on its peak, and I don’t think it’s close.

I am pretty happy I had stayed away from checking their setlists as I was surprised with some of the songs we got. It was so cool to get Secret Meeting (dedicated to Jared Kushner - “he was Bryce’s roommate in college”, “I’m 12 years older than him, Matt”, “oh it was Aaron then, my bad”) after so many years. This was one of those songs I simply did not think they would bring back. And then Slow Show and Apartment Story back to back - the two songs that made me fall in love with the band. The arrangement for Apartment Story is somehow better than I remember it, with a monster crescendo.

But the true story of this show is how incredible the new songs sound live. They started off on a ZooTV-like run of basically all my favorite songs off the new album. I will stand by my opinion that Guilty Party is the best song in the new albums, and it’s magical live with the band playing off each other in the end. The System Only Dreams... is the highlight you would expect, and people were really into it. Walk It Back (“Fuck you Karl”) also seems to be a new fan favorite, with that amazing ending after the playback recording.

It was just such a refreshing setlist. The obvious classics like Fake Empire, Bloodbuzz (the new intro is fantastic) and Mr. November were all there, but it still felt like they could put together an impeccably well sequenced set that doesn’t feel like new songs plus greatest hit (learn a lesson, U2). We got Conversation 16! That would never cross my mind. I had forgotten how fun that chorus is live. And unearthing About Today was great, with a pretty awesome live arrangement too.

And then they cover Ramones’ The KKK Took My Baby Away in the middle of Queens, and it’s basically perfection (“this is a story about Donald Trump stealing Joey Ramone’s baby” or something like that, says Matt).

All in all, what an amazing show. There is no such thing as a boring National show, but I have to admit that the last couple of times I saw them I felt their show was becoming somewhat stale. Last night renewed my faith in them.
 
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