Random Music Talk CXXVIII: Cobbler's 42 Hat Sucks

[cobl04]

But then how are we to judge music that fails to take a stance on matters of social import, either explicitly through its lyricism or indirectly through its popularity within larger movements? Where is the space for heralding sonic innovation that doesn't fall into line with the moral zeitgeist?

Underscoring this point is the lack of instrumental music on this list: jazz, IDM, modern classical, etc. Where does an album like Selected Ambient Works 85-92, Music Has the Right to Children, Another Green World, hell, even Loveless find its place in a canon built around pop stars, preachers and poets?

Totally get where you're coming from. It's literally an impossible and I would argue futile task. Art is subjective, and this is an exercise in trying to make it objective.

I don't really care about where this album or that artist places on these types of lists, that's all subjective, what bothers me more is the methodology. Like I said, of course I support more diversity, but when such a significant part of your judgement of music is based on its social relevance, what that means is that you're putting faaaaar too much weight on the lyrical content and nowhere near enough weight on the musical content.

Music before lyrics. Always. No exceptions. Anything else is wrong. Diversity is so important, social relevance too, but we can't let those become such focal points that we stop actually judging the MUSIC itself - not the words, the music.

And I cannot buy Drake being important or influential. Honestly, the reactions I've seen to Drake, both in my real life and online, have more often been that he's a joke rather than an important artist. I mean even if we're using this lyrics-first methodology, he's not more important than Tupac. No one will be talking about him in 25 years the way we still talk about Tupac.
But again, I've never really listened to him because what little I've heard suggested I wouldn't get anything out of it.

I think this is very simplistic. No one is looking only at the lyrics, divorced from the music. They go hand in hand. Otherwise poetry would be included. Lyrics are words, the music brings them to life. The social relevance absolutely includes the music. "Alright" wouldn't have become an anthem in 2015-16 if it wasn't a song.

And that's your opinion on Drake. But if you can't look at the landscape and see that he is important and influential, I don't know what to tell you. The fact that he is a meme/joke is proof positive of his importance and influence. There are still Hotline Bling memes doing the rounds five years on from its release. Personally, I'm with you, I don't like him much at all, don't think he's a great lyricist, or singer, or rapper, but to suggest he's not incredibly important or influential is silly.

Take a look at this clip. The kids have literally got a Tupac poster on their wall, and they didn't even know California Love. But they know Drake inside and out.



Whether we think Drake is as good as Tupac or Marvin Gaye or The Beatles or Joni Mitchell or whoever doesn't matter. I would argue that if publications are going to attempt to make an objective list, they have to include modern context, and that means rating Drake highly.

 

[iron yuppie]

Underscoring this point is the lack of instrumental music on this list: jazz, IDM, modern classical, etc. Where does an album like Selected Ambient Works 85-92, Music Has the Right to Children, Another Green World, hell, even Loveless find its place in a canon built around pop stars, preachers and poets?

Your point about jazz underscores the importance of context that Gump and others were remarking upon. Jazz often was protest music (Mingus, Miles etc), but you wouldn't know it just from listening to the albums. There's a reason it gets sampled so much among conscious hip-hop artists (is that still a genre term?).

 

[cobl04]

It is a crime to not include much jazz in such a list, I do wonder if it's because it is such an overwhelming genre to try and tackle, because it's almost its own world, and there's so much context that needs to be understood. Not that that's an excuse. Criminal to not include more jazz.

There's a great ?uestlove quote that's like, growing up as a black American, there were two things that were essentials in every household, the Bible and Kind of Blue.

 

[iron yuppie]

If you want to read a tragic story about casual racism, look up the death of Eric Dolphy. Guy was in diabetic shock and doctors wouldn't treat him because they assumed as a black jazz musician he was in heroin withdrawal.

 

[cobl04]

gosh, that's so sad and awful.

 

[lazarus]

Totally get where you're coming from. It's literally an impossible and I would argue futile task. Art is subjective, and this is an exercise in trying to make it objective.

I think there's one thing we should be able to agree on objectively: calling something one of the 500 best of all time implies some kind of resonance beyond the moment. There's really no excuse to put anything from the past decade in the upper half of the list.

The reason that The Beatles, Beach Boys, Dylan, James Brown, Chuck Berry, etc perennially appear so high on these lists is because they've had time for people to truly appreciate their influence and staying power.

As great as Kendrick or Kanye's albums might be, let them sit for a while before putting them into the upper echelon. To even be in the Top 500 at all should be an honor. To put Drake so high this quickly is laughable, regardless of his current popularity.

This is why we have year-end lists. It's why we have decade-end lists. But when we're talking about the entirety of recorded music history, higher placements should really be earned over time and not handed out as some kind of course-correction on decades of lists made predominantly by white music nerds.

As for jazz, they really shouldn't have bothered at all. Rolling Stone is a magazine dedicated to pop/rock, and those crossover with R&B, country, electronic music. Jazz is a completely different beast and I don't really give a shit what the RS staff thinks about that genre because it's not their territory.

 

[lazarus]

And also, as annoyed as I am about U2 getting dropped so hard, Dark Side of the Moon being outside the Top 50 is some kind of major WTF. It's not even my favorite Floyd album but come on.

 

[LemonMelon]

Evidently, Lemonade's first 4 years were impactful and groundbreaking enough to offset 47 years of Dark Side of the Moon being one of the best selling and recognizable albums in music history. That's impressive.

 

[lazarus]

I mean, I won't take issue with the high ranking of Lauryn Hill's album, groundbreaking in many ways, and still holds up. It's got a lot of great tracks on it and she was a vital voice in music and influenced a lot of people.

Béyonce might be a legend of sorts already but yeah that album hasn't sat for long enough yet.

 

[Danny Boy]

Fair warning, this is in no way, shape, or form the same Annie Clark. I thought maybe she was trying to sneak in a one-off acoustic/folk album, but no.

 

[iron yuppie]

VMP is trying to keep you as a customer, Cobbler.

https://www.vinylmeplease.com/products/outkast-stankonia-essentials

 

[cobl04]

 

[gump]

VMP is trying to keep you as a customer, Cobbler.

https://www.vinylmeplease.com/products/outkast-stankonia-essentials

I had the same thought.

The Billie Holiday album for December looks nice too.

 

[iron yuppie]

Did they announce through the end of the year? I only saw October.

 

[LemonMelon]

Even though I've never really been a fan of theirs, I actually think the new Deftones is my favorite album of the weekend so far, even over Sufjan. While it probably sounds like I'm throwing shade at Sufjan, I'm really not; Ohms is just that good. There have been a bunch of great rock records this year and that one is up there with the best of them.

92 metascore out of 8 reviews.

 

[bono_212]

Speaking of RAWK, as I continue to try to catch up on what all I've missed this year, this is a dope little record:

 

[Hewson]

Speaking of RAWK, as I continue to try to catch up on what all I've missed this year, this is a dope little record:

I like how at the 2:00 minute mark the video switches to a brief clip of zoney! trying to negotiate his way onto DaveC's couch.

 

[Axver]

So bored of all these debates about Top X albums of all time where the whole discussion of the lyrical relevance focuses on how it speaks to contemporary concerns in American politics. Give me a break. If you're going to claim an album is top X of all time, try a bit harder to suggest why someone in Whangamōmona or Ngāruawāhia should give a shit. Otherwise you're just writing a list of 500 albums Yanks might want to hear.

Speaking of RAWK, as I continue to try to catch up on what all I've missed this year, this is a dope little record:

Yeah, this album is pretty good.

If anyone cares for my metal and otherwise heavy recs for this year:
- Ainsoph: Ω-V
- Drown: Subaqueous
- Frayle: 1692
- Hum: Inlet
- Phoxjaw: Royal Swan
- Sleepmakeswaves: the 3 EPs or the compilation, whatever you want
- Stay Inside: Viewing
- Vile Creature: Glory! Glory! Apathy Took Helm!

Emma Ruth Rundle and Thou have released two singles that suggest their collaborative album will be an AOTY candidate.

Aleah's self-titled posthumous release is folk, not metal, but she was a metal musician and "The Tower" is so, so good.

Also, it's from 2014, but holy fuck Anilah's album The Warrior is so good. Metal, ritual ambient, post-rock, all that stuff bundled together. Get on it.

Oh yeah, Palehorse/Palerider put out a single last year, "Fire Gone Out", that I really ought to have been spinning on repeat sooner. It's ace.

 

[Hewson]

Whangamōmona or Ngāruawāhia .

You really shouldn't drink and post, you end up typing nonsense words.

 

[gump]

Did they announce through the end of the year? I only saw October.

They did, for all tracks. Erykah Badu in November and Lady Sings the Blues in December.

https://magazine.vinylmeplease.com/magazine/outkast-erykah-badu-billie-holiday-vmp/

My favorite Billie is Songs for Distingué Lovers but this is a good pick too, from the same year.

 

[lazarus]

The Vinyl Thread

 

[gump]

Gotta make sure that the 3 posts that this forum gets per day go to the right thread, lest people be confused.

 

[DaveC]

So bored of all these debates about Top X albums of all time where the whole discussion of the lyrical relevance focuses on how it speaks to contemporary concerns in American politics. Give me a break. If you're going to claim an album is top X of all time, try a bit harder to suggest why someone in Whangamōmona or Ngāruawāhia should give a shit. Otherwise you're just writing a list of 500 albums Yanks might want to hear.

yeah, how crazy is it that an american music magazine would focus on america rather than publishing articles that speak to people in buttfuck-nowhere, new zealand.

 

[gump]

And clearly the inclusion of women and minorities is a US concern only.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

Gotta make sure that the 3 posts that this forum gets per day go to the right thread, lest people be confused.

I think this calls for a four-page Coldplay discussion.

 

[bono_212]

I like how at the 2:00 minute mark the video switches to a brief clip of zoney! trying to negotiate his way onto DaveC's couch.

Hahahah holy shit. This is what happens when you trust these album cover videos people put up are just that. Wow.

 

[DaveC]

I like how at the 2:00 minute mark the video switches to a brief clip of zoney! trying to negotiate his way onto DaveC's couch.

i didn't see any clawed-out eyeballs so that must have been the very beginning of it.

 

[bono_212]

And clearly the inclusion of women and minorities is a US concern only.

Yeah, but Axver was very specifically talking to the point that's been raised several times in this thread about albums that have their finger on the pulse of what's relevant to American politics right now is getting some records more esteem than they may be musically worth, so to that I think he's totally right.

If it's going to be an American list for Americans, why include anyone else? (To Dave's post, not yours).

Finally, one other thing I haven't mentioned that bothered me about this list, it bothers me about the Oscars, it bothers me about the Grammys and any other time we talk about the inclusion of minorities is that there are other minorities out there that are doing amazing things and get no credit. Until last year at the Oscars, it seemed like an impossibility to be of Asian descent and win an Oscar (let alone actually from FROM Asia, seriously, still can't get over Parasite destroying the awards last year).

I haven't done a demographics break down of the entire top 500 so maybe I'm totally wrong, but I didn't see a ton of Hispanic, SE Asian, African or South American music on this list, which is also extremely disappointing if we're really going to start getting into getting a fair breakdown of all music released.

>> OK I went through the entire list, by my (admittedly VERY quick) count there are:
Artists from Africa - 3
Hispanic (Spain included) - 7 (Puerto Rico - 1)
Jamaica - 3

So forget SE Asia, no one from the ENTIRE CONTINENT has ever released any good music, apparently. And unless I missed something, you can just go ahead and fuck yourselves, as well, South America, no matter how popular and amazing Brazilian music may be. And of course only ONE of the above albums was in the top 50.

Again, I hate going to this well because I feel like I'm on the wrong side of an argument about inclusion and I really fucking hate that because it's not what I'm saying at all. Again, I'm arguing that expanding the top 50 to be nearly 50%/50% white/black isn't fixing anything in the realms of minority representation and why I felt it was (to repeat the word I used, but understand the dislike for it) reactionary. It just feels like a lot of white people in a board room said, "There we go, now they'll be happy" patted themselves on the back and published the list.


God, I really must seem like I care a FUCK ton about this list, I swear I don't, I'm mostly talking about it just with you guys and then occasionally Travis and I will bring it up amongst ourselves.

 

[iron yuppie]

They did, for all tracks. Erykah Badu in November and Lady Sings the Blues in December.

https://magazine.vinylmeplease.com/magazine/outkast-erykah-badu-billie-holiday-vmp/

My favorite Billie is Songs for Distingué Lovers but this is a good pick too, from the same year.

Thanks. Their jazz special editions have been among my favorites. Miles' Sorcerer from a few years back was a particular highlight.

 

[iron yuppie]

Yeah, but Axver was very specifically talking to the point that's been raised several times in this thread about albums that have their finger on the pulse of what's relevant to American politics right now is getting some records more esteem than they may be musically worth, so to that I think he's totally right.

If it's going to be an American list for Americans, why include anyone else? (To Dave's post, not yours).

Finally, one other thing I haven't mentioned that bothered me about this list, it bothers me about the Oscars, it bothers me about the Grammys and any other time we talk about the inclusion of minorities is that there are other minorities out there that are doing amazing things and get no credit. Until last year at the Oscars, it seemed like an impossibility to be of Asian descent and win an Oscar (let alone actually from FROM Asia, seriously, still can't get over Parasite destroying the awards last year).

I haven't done a demographics break down of the entire top 500 so maybe I'm totally wrong, but I didn't see a ton of Hispanic, SE Asian, African or South American music on this list, which is also extremely disappointing if we're really going to start getting into getting a fair breakdown of all music released.

>> OK I went through the entire list, by my (admittedly VERY quick) count there are:
Artists from Africa - 3
Hispanic (Spain included) - 7 (Puerto Rico - 1)
Jamaica - 3

So forget SE Asia, no one from the ENTIRE CONTINENT has ever released any good music, apparently. And unless I missed something, you can just go ahead and fuck yourselves, as well, South America, no matter how popular and amazing Brazilian music may be. And of course only ONE of the above albums was in the top 50.

Again, I hate going to this well because I feel like I'm on the wrong side of an argument about inclusion and I really fucking hate that because it's not what I'm saying at all. Again, I'm arguing that expanding the top 50 to be nearly 50%/50% white/black isn't fixing anything in the realms of minority representation and why I felt it was (to repeat the word I used, but understand the dislike for it) reactionary. It just feels like a lot of white people in a board room said, "There we go, now they'll be happy" patted themselves on the back and published the list.


God, I really must seem like I care a FUCK ton about this list, I swear I don't, I'm mostly talking about it just with you guys and then occasionally Travis and I will bring it up amongst ourselves.

To all this, I think it is a legitimate question as to whether the black American experience can or should be used as representative of all POC-identifying people, as the Rolling Stone list seems to do either intentionally or unintentionally. I'm not pretending to know the answer to this.