Random Music Talk CXXVIII: Cobbler's 42 Hat Sucks

[bono_212]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

To all this, I think it is a legitimate question as to whether the black American experience can or should be used as representative of all POC-identifying people, as the Rolling Stone list seems to do either intentionally or unintentionally. I'm not pretending to know the answer to this.

Once again, someone far more eloquently poses the question I'm trying to get at myself. Thank you.

[gump]

Originally Posted by bono_212

Yeah, but Axver was very specifically talking to the point that's been raised several times in this thread about albums that have their finger on the pulse of what's relevant to American politics right now is getting some records more esteem than they may be musically worth, so to that I think he's totally right.

If it's going to be an American list for Americans, why include anyone else? (To Dave's post, not yours).

Finally, one other thing I haven't mentioned that bothered me about this list, it bothers me about the Oscars, it bothers me about the Grammys and any other time we talk about the inclusion of minorities is that there are other minorities out there that are doing amazing things and get no credit. Until last year at the Oscars, it seemed like an impossibility to be of Asian descent and win an Oscar (let alone actually from FROM Asia, seriously, still can't get over Parasite destroying the awards last year).

I haven't done a demographics break down of the entire top 500 so maybe I'm totally wrong, but I didn't see a ton of Hispanic, SE Asian, African or South American music on this list, which is also extremely disappointing if we're really going to start getting into getting a fair breakdown of all music released.

>> OK I went through the entire list, by my (admittedly VERY quick) count there are:
Artists from Africa - 3
Hispanic (Spain included) - 7 (Puerto Rico - 1)
Jamaica - 3

So forget SE Asia, no one from the ENTIRE CONTINENT has ever released any good music, apparently. And unless I missed something, you can just go ahead and fuck yourselves, as well, South America, no matter how popular and amazing Brazilian music may be. And of course only ONE of the above albums was in the top 50.

Again, I hate going to this well because I feel like I'm on the wrong side of an argument about inclusion and I really fucking hate that because it's not what I'm saying at all. Again, I'm arguing that expanding the top 50 to be nearly 50%/50% white/black isn't fixing anything in the realms of minority representation and why I felt it was (to repeat the word I used, but understand the dislike for it) reactionary. It just feels like a lot of white people in a board room said, "There we go, now they'll be happy" patted themselves on the back and published the list.


God, I really must seem like I care a FUCK ton about this list, I swear I don't, I'm mostly talking about it just with you guys and then occasionally Travis and I will bring it up amongst ourselves.

Look, as a Latin American person myself, I have sympathy for the idea that these lists should be more inclusive than they are. As it is, I read this as best albums (mostly) in the Anglo-Saxon world, and I understand it has representational shortcomings even there. Rolling Stone has a list of best Brazilian albums of all time, for example, which is actually not a bad list (and quite inclusive). I tend to read these things in parallel to each other rather than thinking that there aren't Brazilian albums that would fit high on that RS list. But it is quite hard to come up with a group of critics that will have familiarity with music from around the world for something like this. I do wish they would use the exposure of such a list to showcase more international artists, but I understand the challenges.

I also take your point that the list could be more inclusive of other groups, and I agree. But to be moving in the right direction seems like a plus?

There's something to be said, though, about how African American music is deeply influential of so much of contemporary music, and not only in North America. Most of the white artists in this list owe a debt to those influences, so I think tackling the huge gap they had in Black representation was a priority (by the way, episode 3 of the 1619 Podcast nicely conveys some of this, and contextualizes issues related to appropriation).

LOL, it's funny that we all seem to dislike the RS list for different reasons and yet spend all this time discussing it.

[gump]

Also, y'all should take this opportunity to listen to Acabou Chorare, which ranked #1 in the Brazilian list.

[bono_212]

Originally Posted by gump

I also take your point that the list could be more inclusive of other groups, and I agree. But to be moving in the right direction seems like a plus?

Totally totally and to your next point

There's something to be said, though, about how African American music is deeply influential of so much of contemporary music, and not only in North America. Most of the white artists in this list owe a debt to those influences, so I think tackling the huge gap they had in Black representation was a priority (by the way, episode 3 of the 1619 Podcast nicely conveys some of this, and contextualizes issues related to appropriation).

Absolutely. I had a teacher in middle school who had a chart on her wall that traced ALL contemporary popular music in the US back to Africa. I feel like that's a bit reductive of ALL musical contributions anyone has ever made to genre, but it's totally a fair point and it is VERY important to note how much of an impact Black artists have, so I get it. Change can be a very good and powerful thing. I think my overall point was simply not to give Rolling Stone themselves TOO much credit.



Also, I'd like to apologize to Shakira, I forgot she was Colombian, so there's at least one South American album on the list. I counted her as from Central America.

EDIT: LMAO, you can tell there's something else I'm meant to be doing, because I am over here looking up the dumbest shit.

I found ONE Asian American on the list so far. Fever to Tell is on the list.

I need to walk away, I'm getting obsessive now.

[gump]

Originally Posted by bono_212

Totally totally and to your next point

Absolutely. I had a teacher in middle school who had a chart on her wall that traced ALL contemporary popular music in the US back to Africa. I feel like that's a bit reductive of ALL musical contributions anyone has ever made to genre, but it's totally a fair point and it is VERY important to note how much of an impact Black artists have, so I get it. Change can be a very good and powerful thing. I think my overall point was simply not to give Rolling Stone themselves TOO much credit.



Also, I'd like to apologize to Shakira, I forgot she was Colombian, so there's at least one South American album on the list. I counted her as from Central America.

EDIT: LMAO, you can tell there's something else I'm meant to be doing, because I am over here looking up the dumbest shit.

I found ONE Asian American on the list so far. Fever to Tell is on the list.

I need to walk away, I'm getting obsessive now.

That stupid RS website slows my computer to a crawl every time I try to check something, so I've given up on checking. I wish there was a text version of the list somewhere.

[lazarus]

If we’re including Fever to Tell because Karen O is (half?) Asian, shouldn’t James Iha count as well for Smashing Pumpkins (I’m assuming they have an album on the list)?

[Hewson]

Originally Posted by lazarus

If we’re including Fever to Tell because Karen O is (half?) Asian, shouldn’t James Iha count as well for Smashing Pumpkins (I’m assuming they have an album on the list)?

Well, Karen was born in Korea.

James was born in Chicago, Asia, a few miles north of Atlanta, Germany.

[LemonMelon]

I feel like the only major demographic changes that took place on the list were that more women were included (good!) and that more African Americans were included (good!), with the latter ultimately making the list even more Americentric than it already was.

Some essential international albums that could have been included:

Fishmans - Long Season (Japan)
Boris - Feedbacker/Flood/Pink (Japan)
Boredoms - Vision Creation Newsun (Japan)
Os Mutantes - s/t (Brazil)
Caetano Veloso - Transa (Brazil)
Jorge Ben - A Tábua de Esmeralda (Brazil)
Milton Nascimento & Lô Borges - Clube da Esquina (Brazil)
Gal Costa - Gal Costa (Brazil)
Yma Sumac - Mambo! (Peru)
Pescado Rabioso - Artaud (Argentina)
Ravi Shankar - Music of India: Three Classical Rāgas (India)
Ennio Morricone - The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (Italy)
Fabrizio de Andre - Non al denaro non all'amore né al Cielo (Italy)
Lucio Battisti - Anima Latina (Italy)
Serge Gainsbourg - Histoire de Melody Nelson (France)
Jean Michel Jarre - Oxygene (France)
Françoise Hardy - La Question (France)
Triana - El Patio (Spain)
Anything by Spanish greats Nacho Vegas or Los Planetas

You get the idea. The list could have been so much more flavorful and worthwhile for more intermediate music listeners, but instead it just catered to a small segment of potential readers from North America and the UK.

They just had to make room for Harry Styles, I guess.

[u2popmofo]

Anyone else like Heilung?

[namkcuR]

Has anyone listened to Alanis Morissette's new album from a couple months back, "Such Pretty Forks In The Road"?

I'll admit that I really haven't listened to any of her stuff since 2003's "Under Rug Swept", but this one's been getting good reviews - some even saying it's her best since "Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie" - so I checked it out the other day.

I like it a lot. Most of it is quieter, slower, but it seems heartfelt. It's well-written and well-performed, melodic and brooding. She has one of the most unique and recognizable voices.

Don't go in expecting Jagged Little Pill, because it's far from that(as I think most of her work has been since JLP).

[gump]

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

Caetano Veloso - Transa (Brazil)

His 1967 self-titled album is better and much more influential in my view. And he writes and sings in Portuguese for all of it (well, except in Soy Loco por Ti América), with better lyricism.

Serge Gainsbourg - Histoire de Melody Nelson (France)

So good, but so freaking creepy.

[bono_212]

Originally Posted by u2popmofo

Anyone else like Heilung?

I'm not familiar, but if they will get you to post here, I will listen to them, haha.

[cobl04]

It's been a pretty good year for new music, at least.

[LuckyNumber7]

The hot mess that this was only benefits Biden.

People are exhausted from Trump.

[LemonMelon]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

The hot mess that this was only benefits Biden.

People are exhausted from Trump.

Wrong thread but I hope you're right.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by cobl04

It's been a pretty good year for new music, at least.

There hasn't been much that has really grabbed me TBH though there has been a lot of enjoyable stuff. I would recommend Sevdaliza's "Shabrang" as something flying under the radar. She's Iranian-British with a pop/trip-hop kind of sound.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

Wrong thread but I hope you're right.

My bad folks

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

There hasn't been much that has really grabbed me TBH though there has been a lot of enjoyable stuff. I would recommend Sevdaliza's "Shabrang" as something flying under the radar. She's Iranian-British with a pop/trip-hop kind of sound.

Been plenty grabbing me. Nothing that's blowing my mind away (although Have We Met I think is pretty fucking stellar), but I haven't done this in 2020, so why not give it a go:

2020 Albums
1. Destroyer - Have We Met
2. A Girl Called Eddy - Been Around
3. Jessie Ware - What's Your Pleasure?
4. The Soft Pink Truth - Shall We Continue Sinning So That Grace May Increase
5. Moses Sumney - græ
6. Nubya Garcia - Source
7. Phoebe Bridgers - Punisher
8. Against All Logic - 2017-2019
9. Bob Dylan - Rough and Rowdy Ways
10. Moodymann - Taken Away

Fav 2020 Songs, no order
Destroyer - The Raven, Cue Synthesiser
A Girl Called Eddy - Jody
The Soft Pink Truth - Grace
Bob Dylan - Murder Most Foul, Key West
Moses Sumney - Polly
Gil Scott-Heron & Makaya McCraven - I'll Take Care of You
Jessie Ware - Remember Where You Are
Sufjan Stevens - America, Sugar

(I'm sure there's some great singles, but I can never fucking remember them!!)

With Maggot Brain being comfortably the best non-2020 record I've heard for the first time.

[lazarus]

1. Carly Rae






Everyone Else

[bono_212]

I've heard a LOT I've loved this year.

Currently I'm listening to possibly the first album I've HATED this year.

Gotta have balance.