Random Music Talk CXXIX: Gump attends a concert - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Lemonade Stand > Just the Bang and the Clatter
Click Here to Login
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-30-2021, 06:21 PM   #201
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 19,002
Local Time: 08:29 AM
You have your opinions and I have mine. Websites like pitchfork attempt to take an “expert’s” opinion and pass it off as fact. The closest factual approximation to what good music is would be what most people like. I don’t like that perspective and I’m sure neither do you. You might love Kanye West and you’re more than welcome to. I don’t. I also loathe Eminem, the two of them are not “geniuses”, they’re pricks with good flow. They’re assholes. They’re questionable character, I don’t like their sound, and I don’t appreciate their lyrics. The fact that one of them is “acclaimed” by pitchfork and the other is “the worst” is laughable. It’s someone’s opinion. The world loves Eminem and his music. I’m quite tired of the 10+ years of indie-bred snobbery’s ironic love for Kanye West. That’s what that is to me, and that’s what pitchfork is to me.
__________________

LuckyNumber7 is offline  
Old 05-30-2021, 06:48 PM   #202
More 5G Than Man
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 68,669
Local Time: 05:29 AM
__________________

LemonMelon is offline  
Old 05-30-2021, 06:50 PM   #203
Blue Crack Supplier
 
lazarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 41,753
Local Time: 05:29 AM
lazarus is offline  
Old 05-30-2021, 07:10 PM   #204
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 19,002
Local Time: 08:29 AM
Good commentary folks
LuckyNumber7 is offline  
Old 05-30-2021, 07:40 PM   #205
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 58,580
Local Time: 11:29 PM
LN7 is fundamentally correct. I don't agree with him, but music is ultimately subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post
He is tho
He was. I can't think of many, if any artists with the drop-off that Kanye has had since Pablo. I've gone from being a fierce Stan to someone who outright dislikes him (whilst still holding all the love I had for Pablo and back).
cobl04 is offline  
Old 05-30-2021, 08:04 PM   #206
Refugee
 
monkeyskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,655
Local Time: 01:29 PM
I’m hoping this is just a religious phase like Dylan went through and there’s plenty more good music to come. I want a divorce album from him as good as Blood on the Tracks.

And that’s the only time I compare Kanye West to Bob Dylan.
monkeyskin is offline  
Old 05-30-2021, 08:06 PM   #207
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 58,580
Local Time: 11:29 PM
Haha, me and a good mate of mine have been saying for years we wanted them to break up so we could get a fucking fire, angry/sad divorce album.
cobl04 is offline  
Old 05-30-2021, 08:09 PM   #208
More 5G Than Man
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 68,669
Local Time: 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
LN7 is fundamentally correct. I don't agree with him, but music is ultimately subjective.



He was. I can't think of many, if any artists with the drop-off that Kanye has had since Pablo. I've gone from being a fierce Stan to someone who outright dislikes him (whilst still holding all the love I had for Pablo and back).
An artist doesn't just wake up one day and stop having immense talent. Rather, they drift away from their art and stop creating works that resonate with people. Edge still has the capacity for genius guitar playing, to be an innovator, but he doesn't put the effort in for U2 anymore.

Kanye got too bogged down by the context of his art - his mental illness, his business, his politics, his family life - to dedicate himself to music and the results are obvious. Maybe one day he'll sit down and start to craft a cohesive vision like he used to, but I can't see it happening under his current circumstances. Does that make him not a genius? I think the capacity for greatness is still there, but it's not likely to appear at this stage.
LemonMelon is offline  
Old 05-30-2021, 08:16 PM   #209
More 5G Than Man
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 68,669
Local Time: 05:29 AM
Kids See Ghosts was also a very good and very much beloved album, which came out all of 3 years ago. His beats on Daytona from the same year were also excellent.

Jesus Is King was the worst album of his career though. I've listened to it maybe twice and have no desire to go back. Empty lyricism and bad production. Like monkeyskin, I'm hoping that was just a fluke poor album and not the beginning of the end.
LemonMelon is offline  
Old 05-31-2021, 07:46 AM   #210
ONE
love, blood, life
 
gump's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 10,071
Local Time: 08:29 AM
Random Music Talk CXXIX: Gump attends a concert

Not to pick on anyone, but I really think that “art is subjective” is overly simplistic a statement that ignores hundreds of years of artistic criticism. Of course it’s subjective like virtually everything involving humans. That doesn’t mean you can’t evaluate it according to a set of aesthetic and other factors, and distinguish great works from good ones from trash. You are free not to like the Jupiter Symphony, Kind of Blue or Crime and Punishment. That doesn’t mean one should ignore the overwhelming critical consensus around these work, or that prefers the latest Chainsmokers single has an equally valid point of view from a critical standpoint. Where Pitchfork goes wrong is trying to ascribe meaning to decimal point differences (particularly since their popularity in the industry means those decimal points can mean success or failure for many bands from a commercial standpoint). But trying to evaluate art? That has happened since men were painting on caves.
gump is offline  
Old 05-31-2021, 06:25 PM   #211
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 19,002
Local Time: 08:29 AM
I don’t discount that and I do agree their big mistake is adding a quantitative number to a qualitative device, but the means in which they speak is what I hate most. There’s such conviction with most of their articles. They’re designed to insult, be inflammatory, and what have you.

I’ll go back to Eminem vs. Kanye West. I’m not sure what critical opinion is there for if both of these artists occupy similar regions of popularity, sales, and streams. Are people supposed to pause and say “you know what? I love this album but gosh golly you’re right, Eminem is lame.”

Critical reception is worth considering. It’s valuable in giving perspective to things you mightn’t think about when listening to an album or piece of work. But that doesn’t mean someone’s professional opinion of art is more valuable or more correct than the audiences in which the music were made for.
LuckyNumber7 is offline  
Old 05-31-2021, 07:25 PM   #212
ONE
love, blood, life
 
iron yuppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,730
Local Time: 07:29 AM
Pitchfork has a reputation for inflammatory opinions, but in my experience the vast, vast majority of their reviews are even-handed. I see them as a vehicle for recommendations and stuff I would otherwise have overlooked. That's really it.
iron yuppie is offline  
Old 05-31-2021, 08:51 PM   #213
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 58,580
Local Time: 11:29 PM
Well said, Gump. I also agree with iYup. I think LN7 your view of Pitchfork is far too harsh. They HAVE to have conviction. How long would a review website last that hedges its bets and says nice things about everything? No one would read it.
cobl04 is offline  
Old 05-31-2021, 09:47 PM   #214
More 5G Than Man
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 68,669
Local Time: 05:29 AM
It's funny that anyone would even say that about Pitchfork these days because they've become a weak, watered down version of themselves with zero conviction since Conde Nast bought them and they started their festival. Hardly anyone gets below a 6/10 anymore, just in case they want an interview or need someone to fill in at P4k Fest. The days of 0.0/10 hatchet jobs are long over.

Conde Nast Pitchfork is honestly the music equivalent of most gaming "journalism."
LemonMelon is offline  
Old 05-31-2021, 09:57 PM   #215
ONE
love, blood, life
 
iron yuppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,730
Local Time: 07:29 AM
They only go hard at the low-hanging fruit, like Greta Van Fleet.
iron yuppie is offline  
Old 05-31-2021, 10:26 PM   #216
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 58,580
Local Time: 11:29 PM
Well, one, that makes sense from a business standpoint, so I get it. There might also be consideration for artists' mental health and wellbeing. Pouring your heart and soul into a project to get a 3.9 from the most prominent music review website on the internet would be crushing.
cobl04 is offline  
Old 06-01-2021, 12:11 AM   #217
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 19,002
Local Time: 08:29 AM
Random Music Talk CXXIX: Gump attends a concert

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
Well, one, that makes sense from a business standpoint, so I get it. There might also be consideration for artists' mental health and wellbeing. Pouring your heart and soul into a project to get a 3.9 from the most prominent music review website on the internet would be crushing.

Well the consideration for the artist is another reason why I absolutely hate them - my other favorite artist received a blistering <2 review on their debut album that absolutely gutted them. Egregious accusations of being manufactured music and thinking their fans were “a demographic.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
Well said, Gump. I also agree with iYup. I think LN7 your view of Pitchfork is far too harsh. They HAVE to have conviction. How long would a review website last that hedges its bets and says nice things about everything? No one would read it.

So I don’t know how you can go off and say this. They should absolutely do their Perez Hilton bullshit because people will read it? Great, and Rupert Murdoch should absolutely continue to allow manipulative right ring talking heads on prime time because people will watch it.

It’s not about saying nice things versus mean things. It’s about being objective and not being a dick. And about acknowledging that an educated opinion is still an opinion, not elevated to a fact. Again, you don’t have to like Eminem, but a heck of a lot of people do. To think that somehow *they’re wrong* in some objective sense is elitist and lame.
LuckyNumber7 is offline  
Old 06-01-2021, 12:21 AM   #218
Blue Crack Distributor
 
bono_212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 83,894
Local Time: 05:29 AM
Popular Music journalism might be a bit of an outlier here, since it's still in its infancy relatively speaking, but let's not for a second go down the road that there aren't professionals who are uniquely and adequately equipped to speak with authority about art / film / music /etc. This gets dangerously close to the idea that if 100 Facebook moms say vaccines are dangerous but 10 doctors says they're not, the moms must be right.

People go to school to learn journalism, criticism, history, etc. Or they do the equivalent research. They do have a place of authority to speak from. To dismiss it as just one man's opinion discredits journalism as a whole, imo. Also this shows the "dangers" or at least the issues with the internet giving us a fast track into every average Joe's opinion. Music can be popular and not really add anything to the annals of time and that's OK. No one will remember the Pussycat Dolls in 30 years, but it doesn't change the fact that for a moment, they were extremely popular.

Eminem made a few very good albums. He's made some really bad ones. If you actually check Metacritic, generally the critics also like him, meaning this comparison is kinda moot from the start...
__________________
bono_212 is offline  
Old 06-01-2021, 12:59 AM   #219
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 58,580
Local Time: 11:29 PM
This is veering nicely with the Naomi Osaka discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
Well the consideration for the artist is another reason why I absolutely hate them - my other favorite artist received a blistering <2 review on their debut album that absolutely gutted them. Egregious accusations of being manufactured music and thinking their fans were “a demographic.”

So I don’t know how you can go off and say this. They should absolutely do their Perez Hilton bullshit because people will read it? Great, and Rupert Murdoch should absolutely continue to allow manipulative right ring talking heads on prime time because people will watch it.

It’s not about saying nice things versus mean things. It’s about being objective and not being a dick. And about acknowledging that an educated opinion is still an opinion, not elevated to a fact. Again, you don’t have to like Eminem, but a heck of a lot of people do. To think that somehow *they’re wrong* in some objective sense is elitist and lame.
I feel like you're looking at it in black and white terms, when it's pretty grey. I read Pitchfork reasonably regularly and I can't think of a time they've done "Perez Hilton bullshit". Which favourite artist are you referring to? I'll go and look at the review.

I also think that it's not really feasible to include a disclaimer in every critical review like "this music has value and they have a fanbase so take what we say with a grain of salt". That should be built into the readers. What do you want them to do? If we get to a place where we can't say "man the new Eminem album fucking sucks ass" without also having to write "but I acknowledge that it has value and the fans who like it are correct to do so", then it kinda makes art criticism moot, which is not where we wanna go I don't think.

I get the hurt for a website like Pitchfork criticising something you love, I really do. But there has to be an assumption when we read any criticism that it is an opinion. An informed one, based on study and all the things Ashley and Gump mentioned, but an opinion nonetheless, and the onus is on the reader to take it or leave it.
cobl04 is offline  
Old 06-01-2021, 02:36 AM   #220
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 19,002
Local Time: 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bono_212 View Post
Popular Music journalism might be a bit of an outlier here, since it's still in its infancy relatively speaking, but let's not for a second go down the road that there aren't professionals who are uniquely and adequately equipped to speak with authority about art / film / music /etc. This gets dangerously close to the idea that if 100 Facebook moms say vaccines are dangerous but 10 doctors says they're not, the moms must be right.

People go to school to learn journalism, criticism, history, etc. Or they do the equivalent research. They do have a place of authority to speak from. To dismiss it as just one man's opinion discredits journalism as a whole, imo. Also this shows the "dangers" or at least the issues with the internet giving us a fast track into every average Joe's opinion. Music can be popular and not really add anything to the annals of time and that's OK. No one will remember the Pussycat Dolls in 30 years, but it doesn't change the fact that for a moment, they were extremely popular.

Eminem made a few very good albums. He's made some really bad ones. If you actually check Metacritic, generally the critics also like him, meaning this comparison is kinda moot from the start...


You’re unnecessarily conflating science with art. Medicine follows a scientific method. 100 Facebook moms do not. 10 doctors opinions (educated as they may be) also do not follow the scientific method. They’re opinions. Where you’re correct is that you’re obligated to believe 10 doctors over 100 Facebook moms, because there’s reason to believe these doctors are studied on the research that followed the scientific methods to justify the vaccine. There’s less reason to believe the Facebook moms have.

It’s not dangerously or even remotely close to questioning professional critics opinions, which are based on... their opinions. You’d be less justified in questioning their perspectives, their experiences, their approaches, or their angles. They are not scientists. Their opinion is not based in fact. It is an opinion.

I have absolutely no clue how you think “the comparison is moot from the start” regarding Eminem and Kanye West. We aren’t talking about metacritic. We are talking about pitchfork. Specifically, how Pitchfork follows the social trend (that I personally question) of labeling Kanye West as a “genius” whilst smugly advertising his contemporary artists of equal or greater achievement as “the worst.” Without coincidence, the same type of artists that a specific subgroup of people happily shit on.

I don’t know about you, but circa 2010 I very much so grew up through the “Coldplay were cool when they were indie but now they’re on the radio so I hate them, Arcade Fire as the greatest future thing that I will hate later, I love Radiohead because they’re the obscure big British act and anti-Coldplay occupying similar origins, go team Okkervil River I bet you’ve never heard of them, let me throw obscure genres like lo-fi alt buzz band at you so I sound super in the know and different” period in music.

The same stereotype to say “I don’t like Kanye West as a person but you cannot deny he is a musical genius!” This type of logic simplistically brands this guy as somehow godly, sweeps all criticisms under the rug, and is a learned behavior. I’m not out there saying you or anyone here doesn’t justifiably love him, but it’s cult-like avenues like pitchfork that’s perpetuate this logic of somehow “owed respect” towards his music that he is no more or less deserving of than his successful contemporaries. The humorous joke about this all is that I can literally Google the phrase “Kanye West musical genius” and I’m going to get a bazillion articles and Reddit threads flooding my results... because the man himself is an egotistical cog perpetuating the very notion through self declaration.

You seem to think I’m disregarding critical reception as a skill or an art, I’m not. I think reading reviews of any sort, whether they be yours or a professional’s, are valuable ways of gaining different perspectives. A music critic will give you a different insight than most people will. That doesn’t make them right or wrong, it just means they’re unique food for thought. You could provide insight Thats more valuable, or less. You’re probably not as likely to provide it as someone who does it for a living, but then again people like Tucker Carlson do provide their opinions, professionally, for a living. So, all opinions count, because they’re opinions. Similar to how this very post is a(n) (amateur) opinion of what I perceive as an intentionally inflammatory website aptly named after a gardening tool associated with angry mobs designed to rile people up. And I do not think the name is a coincidence.
__________________

LuckyNumber7 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×