R.E.M. have broken up

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Absolute bollocks, numbers.

He "came out" in 2001. New Adventures and Up both had relatively average sales. In fact I'd say REM album sales have steadily declined since the lofty heights of Automatic For The People.

REM just became a less and less attractive proposition for mainstream exposure. That's why their commercial success waned. Their image was not congruent with anything capable of such success. Whether Stipe was a known gay or not is irrelevant.

On the other side of the coin, their musical output (since '97) has proved widely unfavourable amongst critics and within channels that are popular with alternative/indie audiences (JJJ in Australia especially).

They got stuck in that vacuum where they weren't commercially exceptional nor critically exceptional... Not that they really seemed to care anyway.

Most artists get into that vacuum. Travis and Strokes are two artists who have similarly experienced such a diminishing. It's just the duration of REM's career and their legendary-ness magnifies their diminishing somewhat.
 
Absolute bollocks, numbers.

He "came out" in 2001. New Adventures and Up both had relatively average sales. In fact I'd say REM album sales have steadily declined since the lofty heights of Automatic For The People.

REM just became a less and less attractive proposition for mainstream exposure. That's why their commercial success waned. Their image was not congruent with anything capable of such success. Whether Stipe was a known gay or not is irrelevant.

On the other side of the coin, their musical output (since '97) has proved widely unfavourable amongst critics and within channels that are popular with alternative/indie audiences (JJJ in Australia especially).

They got stuck in that vacuum where they weren't commercially exceptional nor critically exceptional... Not that they really seemed to care anyway.

Most artists get into that vacuum. Travis and Strokes are two artists who have similarly experienced such a diminishing. It's just the duration of REM's career and their legendary-ness magnifies their diminishing somewhat.
Nothing in your closed-minded post counters anything I stated (the point we're discussing wasn't my argument to begin with -- I just commented on it). I agree with everything you say, as I've already stated, except for the "coming out" part. You're wrong -- Stipe was open about being gay as early as 1995-ish (I can't be arsed to look it up), exactly coinciding with the beginning of R.E.M.'s (relative) decline in popularity.

A little less aggression and a little more consideration would be appreciated.
 
Having attempted to look this up, I should correct myself -- Stipe preferred to define himself as "queer" (not gay, as such) as early as 1994, and he appeared on the cover of Out magazine in 1995. (Which, by the way, is the last year R.E.M. had huge sales in the US.)
 
I think one data point and vaguely gesturing towards declining sales is flimsy support, but it occurs to me we can test something:

If there was ever a "gayer" video than George Michael's "Faith", I've never seen it, but it was the #1 single of the year in the US. Yet, after his forced outage, he dropped off the US charts completely while selling more records than ever in Europe and Britain. A lot of the "arty" or slightly queer stuff passes a lot of people by.

was there a similar unusual crash in REM sales in the US compared to the rest of the world?
 
I thought R.E.M. had a white liberal (progressing to yuppie) fanbase that would be understanding of these sorts of things? No reason to think that, of all bands, R.E.M. would be shunned for Stipe's sexual orientation.

The more significant factor is that they stopped writing hits.
 
was there a similar unusual crash in REM sales in the US compared to the rest of the world?
Yes, extremely so, and R.E.M. were very frustrated by it.

To summarize, since some people have mis-interpreted me by lazy reading (not for the first time) -- I agree that the main reasons for R.E.M.'s sales decline have nothing to do with the relatively trivial matter of Stipe's being "queer", but the point was brought up by The Acrobat and I thought it was an interesting perspective, being as there is considerable evidence to support it. That is all.
 
I thought R.E.M. had a white liberal (progressing to yuppie) fanbase that would be understanding of these sorts of things?
You're probably right -- but R.E.M.'s fanbase grew to include all sorts of right-wing nutjobs, losers, racists, homophobes, and idiots of all sorts in the years 1991 to 1995. That's the only way you can sell ten million (or whatever) of a pop album.

Perhaps we could say that after 1995, their fanbase reverted back to the same size it always was in the late 80s. And maybe their supporters remained these white liberals of which you speak.


About not writing hits, I think that was mainly in the US-market alone. Consider these chart positions:

E-Bow the Letter -- US#49 / UK#4
Daysleeper -- US#57 / Canada #5 / UK#6
At My Most Beautiful -- US (didn't chart at all) / UK#10
The Great Beyond -- US#57 / UK#3
Imitation of Life -- US#86 / UK#3
Bad Day -- US (didn't chart at all) / Canada#17 / UK#8
Leaving New York -- US (didn't chart at all) / UK#5
 
It's Friday, Friday, gotta get down on Friday.

Everybody's looking forward to the weekend.

Partyin Partyin YEAH!

Partyin Partyin YEAH
 
It was in 2001 when he "came out" as a homosexual 659180, but it still seems irrelevant (given that REM's success diminished globally - not just in the USA, where some buyers may boycott something because of an association with homosexuality), so I'm not gonna interrogate the issue anymore. You are truly unbelievable.
 
That song that Pearl Jam covered (earlier on in this thread) is an indication that the songwriting was still very telling right to the very end

Even though the delivery, production, arrangement was not there in the studio, it was still good songwriting

Anyway Im sure someone mentioned this before, but R.E.M was forgotten in Australia especially the alternative radio station (triple J) as triple J moved in a strange direction and forgot the roots of what made it such a revolutionary radio station in the first place!:angry:
 
There is no way to prove whether homophobia diminished R.E.M.'s standing in the US, but the suggestion that it may have is far from ridiculous, in my mind. The US is still a reprehensibly homophobic society - that includes bisexuals - and, if Stipe did indeed come out in 95 (appearing on the cover of Out is as good as coming out), that would not have sit well with the priapic, meat-head culture of MTV and popular radio of the time. It may have been a factor in their popularity decline in the US - not the defining factor, but a factor nonetheless.
 
I don't know what's worse about that video, Stipe acting like he's in a SNL parody of a gay-themed kids show, Berry beating that single drum, or Buck pretending he's still in the Losing My Religion video and trying to ignore the ridiculousness around him (see: Harry Muffin Jr.)
 
I recall being at a party in late 1994, at which a bunch of drunk young guys sat around making jokes about, and impersonating, aboriginal people, while listening to "What's The Frequency Kenneth".

It's the Kurt Cobain conundrum -- if you get big, a fair percentage of your fans are now people you yourself can't stand.

P.S. -- I love "Shiny Happy People"! Great tune.
 
Here are some cool live performances from 1983 as well as interviews:

1983 - Laughing REM - Laughing 1983 - YouTube
1983 - Moral Kiosk REM - Moral Kiosk 1983 - YouTube

R.E.M. - Interview 10-06-83 (1st TV performance) R.E.M. - Interview 10-06-83 (1st TV performance) - YouTube

R.E.M. Radio Free Europe Letterman R.E.M. - Radio Free Europe 10-06-83 (1st TV performance) - YouTube

Letterman 10-06-83 A song they claimed didn't have a name yet-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGiNVZvEnZE&feature=related


Livewire Interview 10-30-83 REM Interview 10-30-83 - YouTube

Peter Buck & Michael Stipe (R.E.M.) 1983 Interview Peter Buck & Michael Stipe (R.E.M.) 1983 Interview - YouTube

Peter Buck & Mike Mills (R.E.M.) 1983 Interview Peter Buck & Mike Mills (R.E.M.) 1983 Interview - YouTube

Peter Buck, the murmur days Peter Buck, the murmur days - YouTube

Peter Buck & Mike Mills (R.E.M.) 1983 Interview MTV August 21, 1983 Peter Buck & Mike Mills (R.E.M.) 1983 Interview - YouTube


REM Interview 10-30-83 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60WYma8jc9M&feature=related
 
R.E.M. LIVE 10-10-1982 (The Pier, Raleigh North Carolina)

Wolves, Lower (The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10) (Part 1/6) R.E.M. - Wolves, Lower (The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10) (Part 1/6) - YouTube

Laughing (The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10) (Part 2/6) R.E.M. - Laughing (The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10) (Part 2/6) - YouTube

1.000.000 - Moral Kiosk (The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10) (Part 3/6) R.E.M. - 1.000.000 - Moral Kiosk (The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10) (Part 3/6) - YouTube

R.E.M. - The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10 (Part 4/6) R.E.M. - The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10 (Part 4/6) - YouTube

R.E.M. - The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10 (Part 5/6) R.E.M. - The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10 (Part 5/6) - YouTube

R.E.M. - Skank (The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10) (Part 6/6) R.E.M. - Skank (The Pier, Raleigh, NC. 1982-10-10) (Part 6/6) - YouTube
 
Fwiw, I didn't even know he'd come out until like last year. I thought his sexuality was still ambiguous.
 
I recall being at a party in late 1994, at which a bunch of drunk young guys sat around making jokes about, and impersonating, aboriginal people, while listening to "What's The Frequency Kenneth".

It's the Kurt Cobain conundrum -- if you get big, a fair percentage of your fans are now people you yourself can't stand.

The Kurt Cobain/REM connection never came to fruition, sadly.

Here is a bizaarro clip.

REM What's the Frequency Kenneth - YouTube
 
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